Help me with this a little. It seems the cell produces high HHO in the middle and very low HHO on the outside. Here is an Image of the set up. (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemimage.cardomain.net%2Fmember_images%2F5%2Fweb%2F2909000-2909999%2F2909782_8_full.jpg&hash=d755e8c632d7c3f929ef3d8ce4778541f939de78)
Now I am not sure why this happens and it is not an exact replica of the smacks booster but from what I see the positive around the middle 4 negative cells produce the high HHO.
I checked the flow and it is 500ml in about 90sec hot.
Here is the car view.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemimage.cardomain.net%2Fmember_images%2F5%2Fweb%2F2909000-2909999%2Fwatermark_2909782_7_full.jpg&hash=e5ea0c853e8de15bc20cd32fdf4395c0217b435a)
The plates are about 11" high sanded down SS plates using teflon bolts and PVC spacers at .08"
The HHO Cell is 4"PVC and stands 14" high.
RTS thanx for the Pix and post look here www.panaceauniversity.org/Smack.pdf read the new info added at bottom on how losses effect your cell and what you can do Chet
Did you try putting another plate on the out side of those 2 outer plates The only difference in the center to the outside is there is 2 neg plates on either side of the inner pos plate and as for the outside there is only 2 on one side and 1 on the other. Just a thought....
I am not sure about this but what I am seeing is the 2 neg plates are surrounded by positive plates. So I think my solution would be to move the left negative plate to the right side so these 2 neg. plates are together. Then add a positive plate to the outside right
So what I would have is:
Positive/Negative-Negative/ Positive/Negative-Negative/ Positive/Negative-Negative/Positive
But still I am not sure this will solve the issue. But I will try this on Saturday
rtsurfer, are you saying that your electrolizer is producing high HHO in the middle of the negative plates and nothing between the middle positive and negative plates?
You drawing shows no production between those plates and based on what you have said. I would take one of the outer negative plates and place it nest to the other and add a positive plate and make the outer plates positive plates.
I am also wondering if you are using a pulse circuit to power your cell? If not, how are you doing with the temperature of the cell? How hot does it get? How many amps does it draw when it is cold and how many when it is at it's hottest?
Sorry about all the questions but I have been studying these a little bit and I would really like to know about these things I asked about concerning your cell.
could it be that the 2 neg plates are acting in series so your pulling twice the current through them than through the single neg plates and accordingly creating more H in that area of the circuit?
have you checked how John Arrons on youtube is doing it, he has tons of different configurations in videos posted.
edit- i just checked their site and it reads:
QuoteWe set up
our plates in this configuration and it seems to work quite well.
( - N N N + N N N -) Center plate is positive. Outside plates are negative. The "N" stands for neutral, these plates don't electrically hook up to anything, just in the way of the current, in which lowers the voltage to 2-3 volts between the plates. The lower voltage keeps from cooking the electrodes and causing cell clean out once a month.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster2.html
when the cell is hot I am seeing around 20amps now. My meter cuts out between 18 and 20amps. I have a 30amp fuse in for 2 days and it is fine. Cold cell running in the 5amp range.
Now I am not sure on htis but I think the cell it producing more HHO between the center neg. plates because of the surrounding pos plates. By adding another neg in there may just up the amps much more. But again I am not sure. my first cell was
Pos/Neg-Neg-Neg-Neg-Neg-Neg/Pos and that was about the same 500ml 90sec. But that cell burnt up.
This one is holding temp good and amps ok.
As far as temp. Well when it is running at 20amps it is very hot. but under 140degrees. next is to get a temp gauge on it. But I do not want to add any other metal inside the cell.
Current flow always follows the path of least resistance and I think the two pairs of neg plates that are surrounding the center pos plate are reinforcing each other to create an imbalance of resistance in the cell. Intuition tells me that to get even production on the plates requires an even distribution of pos and neg which will result in even distribution of the resistance.
This effect may be less pronounced in a high voltage, low current pulsed cell but more pronounced in this type of brute force electrolysis cell.
I'm no expert on hydrogen production but I did stay in a Residence Inn last night.
Well I have made some adjustments and well I am still at 500ml 90sec.
I moved the left neg plate to the right side and then added a positive plate to the right side so
pos/neg-neg/pos/neg-neg/pos/neg-neg/pos
Now what!
I've seen pretty much the same effect but higher up when using single plates and both cathode and anode fed from the top.
Bring both power sources in from the bottom, and it appears to go away, thats the funny part about it, it doesn't, the reaction just moved closer to the opposing poles and with the riser/chimney effect and the gases going upward, it appears even. The resistance should gain as both poles get farther away from their starting point at a pretty even rate.
I believe your seeing a combination of a few things, electricity taking the least path of resistance with the positive/negative at their strongest with the least resistance being midway, theres no other way for it to happen. If it was stronger at the top, it would mean the resistance on the bottom would be high and that can't happen. If it was stronger at the bottom the farthest point for the other opposing pole it would mean its resistance is higher at its starting point.
This can happen, but an improbability when using the same composite, thickness, spacing and electrolyte.
darbee63
RTS have you prepped your plates for max surface area ? sanding ETC what is your container made of ? is this design yours or are you duplicating a pdf with known /proven results Chet
the plates were sanded with cross hatch. I want to try move to sand blast but not yet. I am using PVC pipe 14" high. 4" diameter. Plates are now 11" high. .028 thick SS and 3.5" wide.
The bubbles are very tiny and clouds the water on start up. space about .08
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemimage.cardomain.net%2Fmember_images%2F5%2Fweb%2F2909000-2909999%2F2909782_9_full.jpg&hash=7a03f7ae420e9a694f8331f04091e3cda168fc4e)
this was assembly for +/-/+/- design
bolt going through positive plates
RTS I know this is your thread I just want to ask DARBEE a question what is your opinion on plus minus etc versus plus neutral etc minus cells
My connections are at the top. I thought about what you are saying. Move the connections to the bottom. But at the moment that is not easy Given the space I have.
I am looking for the 1lm mark given the size of my engine.
I am not very familiar about a neutral plates. And I have not seen that much info on it.
At the moment this is my own design which what I can see is not working all that well
RTS you have obviously put in a lot of effort here and i sincerely appreciate your posts a neutral array is the smack booster 1,7 litres min very cheap and fast to make can be found complete plans on this forum Chet
Ramset, my opinion is DWWB (for your application), do what works best, thats kind of the cool thing about the web and sharing info:) I prefer brute force.
My alternator is 105 amp and can handle it, albeit very taxing and I don't like to see the system work so hard. The only system I've seen that comes close to what I've built for production is daddyo on you tube, but even his using a neutral plate configuration and a PWM I believe hes in the 30-40 amp range, the same range I'm at without neutrals and a PWM.
The experiments I've done with neutrals was pre-PWM and the production wasn't near what I get with straight +/-.
If you can get get 1.7 liters......kudos and please post the amount of plates and amperage. I test with inches of water coulumn. With plates and a PWM I get about 10 inches, with straight power about 15 on flat plates, so I felt no reason to test further with PWM on straight plates and went to a tube configuration.
My straight plate configuration with a PWM is pretty good but no where near my 6-5 tube set up for production.
I call it darbees gatlin. 6 tubes with 5 tube in a tube set-up. I start out with 1 1/2", 1 1/4", 1", 3/4"and 1/2". With the 1" and 3/4" being my positive.All 6 tubes silver soldered together on the exterior to make 1 common - bond. With a 1 1/2" tube in the center it makes a perfect circle that looks like a gatlin gun......hence the name "darbees gatlin".
The positives I feed from the bottom, and silver solder together, the neutrals from the top for safety reasons and being the hydrogen atoms migrate to the negatives are silver soldered like wise. The tolerance between them is 1/16th of an inch. (Talk about a chore silver soldering that tight of a tolerance on staggered tubes in your garage)
My PWM will produce next to nothing with the tube configuration and a straight sine wave, not sure why but some how I think resonance upward towards the negative plays a big part.
So it seems to work well. I haven't measured LPM because I've been using inches of water column since a torch was my ulimate goal. I'm at around 25 inches no where near what I was getting out of plates or with a PWM.
The housing is an aluminum cappacinno heater for cooling purposes and to prevent distortion from the heat.
My O2 sensor project is in the works now, Madscientist I beleieve has a pretty good set-up, I'm in the process of building a dual vu LED indicator, that'll measure incoming and outgoing millivolts. (Hate driving with my voltmeter on my seat).
But time and work are against me, so until I test further with multiple differant LMs and comparators that'll be a while.
My runs have all been short mileage runs to date, because of space confinement under the hood, I'm still deciding which way to go. The system I described above is great and my vehicle tends to like it with water coming out of the exhaust within minutes. But space seems to be an issue. The smaller units I've built don't come no where near the production (kind of why like I mentioned earlier I think the tube resonance is a factor in my production)
So I'm going to have to keep trying differant options and alternatives.
I'm truly interested in the higher voltage/frequency issue.........but thats kind of been my problem to date. Everytime I stumble onto something differant I wander off on yet another prototype.
Kind of one of the reasons why I haven't posted what I percieve as the holy grail yet,....like all others I'm still testing.
But by all means share your info, I'm new here so forgive me if you already have.....thanks
Darbee63
rtsurfer, you tube has a lot of videos showing the pros and cons. Myself I've found brute force works best on my tube configuration.
I was under the assumption based on your drawings you were feeding from opposite ends.
What I found that makes a huge differance on flat plates is both the positive and negative being fed from the bottom and a negative going back up to the top and connecting the negatives.
The production seemed to be pretty even, this was with a straight + - set-up.
But then again it could just be the riser/smokestack effect making it appear to have even production.
My PWM on this particular set-up produced almost the same as brute force,.....again no where near the tube set-up, but that all depends on exactly how much your satisfied with producing................to me .......more is better.
Hope that helps :)
Darbee63
I get mpg gains with using brute force (no neutral plates) single cells with a 225w 1 ohm resistor in series with my cell. The more the cell surface area the better.
http://www.newark.com/28K6256/passives/product.us0?sku=multicomp-mc14642
It's such a simple design. 14.7 v / 1 ohm +_ = 14 amps. The circuit creates a voltage divider network that drops the cell voltage down relative to it's ohms. I'm currently running @ 3 volts at 14 amps with my set-up. (at the cell) My 9v battery powered efie is set to + 250 mvdc bias. I'm averaging about 40% gain in mpg. I also removed all check valves, I didn't find any that worked well enough. I no longer get my bubbler sucked dry from the cell cool down. I've ran my current cell for a couple hours and had very little heat gains. there's good and bad in that.
Quote from: rtsurfer on March 18, 2008, 09:18:29 PM
Help me with this a little. It seems the cell produces high HHO in the middle and very low HHO on the outside. Here is an Image of the set up. (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemimage.cardomain.net%2Fmember_images%2F5%2Fweb%2F2909000-2909999%2F2909782_8_full.jpg&hash=d755e8c632d7c3f929ef3d8ce4778541f939de78)
Now I am not sure why this happens and it is not an exact replica of the smacks booster but from what I see the positive around the middle 4 negative cells produce the high HHO.
I checked the flow and it is 500ml in about 90sec hot.
Here is the car view.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemimage.cardomain.net%2Fmember_images%2F5%2Fweb%2F2909000-2909999%2Fwatermark_2909782_7_full.jpg&hash=e5ea0c853e8de15bc20cd32fdf4395c0217b435a)
The plates are about 11" high sanded down SS plates using teflon bolts and PVC spacers at .08"
The HHO Cell is 4"PVC and stands 14" high.
If I understand you right, you are worried about Heat meaning that you draw lots of Amps.
What kind of Water do you use?,do you use any chemicals? If so, maybe try to dilute your water.
If you are using PWM you can try to vary your Pulsewidth.
If I misunderstood your Plight forget about my answer.
professor