Alo All, I will soon be gathering supplies after along awaited time, and no drivers license but now I can legally drink!
Anywho, for xmas my dad offered to buy some wire for me, and I found around 3lbs of 44 AWG.
My question, since my current docs tell me about mainly 32 and 36 AWG, does lower gauge wire ever inhibit current?
I plan on only using this one spool for the entire project, as it's near 44 miles worth.
I will eventually have a seperat post about my full project, as it does have some unique aspects to it, that might not be as popular as they should be.
Chris
Howdy,
AWG = American Wire Gauge
The gauge of the wire is inversely proportional to the size. AWG44 is a lot smaller than AWG32. Plus when you wind up that tiny wire the impedance goes up considerably. I use AWG26 enameled magnet wire on my coil that I am building now. I'll be going down for several reasons. The next coil will be AWG22 stranded wire with heavy insulation for; A) More Current, and B) Thick insulation to promote more electron spin in the wire. AWG44 is really tiny wire, about the smallest that I have seen is AWG40. That doesn't mean less useful, and especially good for starter projects.
Have Fun...
The only problems I see is that this much wire, 44miles, should be enough for my fiull project...and I thought that the smaller the better(I knew about the highger the gauge number, the smaller the diameter) The only real problem I see is that this much has to last the entire project, as the supplier can't give me anymore(that I know of)...I was thinking with having many many more winds it would really increase the delta to the point that it would benifit. From all docs I am reading your 26 and 22 gauge is entirely WAY to small.
I think I plan on using 8miles exactly on each rotor of the motor, and the rest is practice wire
oh, And isn't a thing about OverUnity extreamly low current, in the miliAmps, and High voltage, 2KV+? I beleive that's what I have been reading
Howdy,
OK, I don't see you using 44 miles of wire to wind any coil. You can calculate how much you are going to need by multiplying the circumference of each layer times the number of windings of each layer times the number of coils. About my wire, you don't know what I am winding. I am assuming you are winding Bedini motor coils. Wire is talked about by size and not gauge, AWG22 is bigger then AWG44. So, give me some idea what you are trying to build and how big the coils are supposed to be.
Goodwill to all, for all is One
Quote from: EvilXBOX on April 04, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
...
From all docs I am reading your 26 and 22 gauge is entirely WAY to small.
...
If you are saying his 26 to 22 awg wire is WAY too small, then you need to rethink your own wire.
Here are some statistics for you regarding AWG wire sizes taken from http://www.tfcbooks.com/referenc/wiresize.htm
AWG OHMS per 1000FT Wire Diameter in inches
0000 .049 .460
000 .0618 .4097
00 .078 .3648
0 .0983 .3249
1 .1239 .2893
2 .1563 .2576
3 .1970 .2294
4 .2485 .2043
5 .3133 .1819
6 .3951 .1620
7 .4982 .1443
8 .6281 .1285
9 .7925 .1144
10 .9987 .1019
11 1.261 .0907
12 1.588 .0808
13 2.001 .0720
14 2.524 .0641
15 3.181 .0571
16 4.018 .0508
17 5.054 .0453
18 6.386 .0403
19 8.046 .0359
20 10.13 .0320
21 12.77 .0285
22 16.20 .0253
23 20.30 .0226
24 25.67 .0201
25 32.37 .0179
26 41.02 .0159
27 51.44 .0142
28 65.31 .0126
29 81.21 .0113
30 103.7 .0100
31 130.9 .0089
32 162.0 .0080
33 205.7 .0071
34 261.3 .0063
35 330.7 .0056
36 414.8 .0050
37 512.1 .0045
38 648.2 .0040
39 846.6 .0035
40 1079. .0031
41 1323. .0028
42 1659. .0025
43 2143. .0022
44 2593. .0020
45 3348. .00176
46 4207. .00157
47 5291. .00140
That is as high as the chart goes.
from http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/BrianLey.shtml
Diameter of a human hair is between 0.001 and 0.007.
So your 44 AWG wire is about the thickness of a human hair. (easy to break)
Also, looking strictly at resistance, 8 miles is 42240 feet which is 109.528 K Ohms of resistance (assuming it is straight wire and not in a coil)
Hope this information isn't too pointless for you.
Good luck with your coil.
Regards
Nut
A standard overunity motor, I forget teh name, prob more like an Ed Grey, the plans are from American Scientific.
Each rotor will probly have 20,000 winds to it, if 8mi since that's the best advantage of such small wire is that thousands of winds more per pound
please move to ed grey section?
OK, EvilXBOX,
There is a lot of information out there about Overunity and Free Energy. Do you think it might be possible that I am building something you have never heard of? For a motor windings AWG44 is suitable, especially for a really small motor. There are more ways to achieve overunity than I can put a number on. What I am doing is a solid state unit, no moving parts, going after the OU Prize, kinda. Look at Nutcrackers AWG chart. You'll notice that as the AWG number goes down, and the resistance goes down. That means more current. In turn that means more power. I am not trying to invent some perpetual motion toy, I am generating POWER. I want my device to power my entire house. You can't do that with cute, little wire...
OK, Mo Later...
Hey Nutcracker,
What is a "standard overunity motor"?
Uh, I dunno...
I'll look at the chart, since I modified a post or two of mine the order or posts is not correct on my screen, so sorry if this conversation is jagen. by standard I mean back emf...teh standard docs from american scientific
what is the ohms if I have winds?
He he,
Alright, if you don't know ohms, then you are going to need to back up a little bit. DC circuits? Electricity 101. We all start humble. I want you to think about what we have covered today. Then go get a book about Basic Electronics, and read it, then we'll go again...
Blessed Be Brother...
Please correct me if I am wrong.
The table shows values in Ohms.
I=V/R
I Current in Amperes
V Volts
R Resistance in Ohms
44 2593. .0020
2,000V
.771307366=2000/2593
Also for 36 AWG, 414.8 Ohms
4.821600771=2000/414.8
I want the smallest number of Amps, MILLIAMPS, like I said, becasue the advantage is the 2,000V, what we are playing with is FLUX, so not alot of electricity, but a huge flux(huge voltage) means better flux.
So am I right that the smaller of the two I calculated is better for my project? It does make sense
Chris,
Magnetic Flux, or Magneto Motive Force, is calculated with Ampere Turns. The small wire is going to give you better flux when you have a limited current. The size of the wire limits the amount of current you can put through the wire. So with the small wire you can put X current through the coil times the number of turns which will determine the MMF (Magneto Motive Force) that the coil will produce. The only things that you can do to improve the MMF is to increase the number of windings or increase the size of the wire. Increasing the number of windings increases the DC resistance, which limits the amount of current, and more or less leaves the coil with the same amount of MMF. Or you can increase the size of the wire which increases the amount of current which increases the amount of MMF.
The resistance value on the chart is in ohms per 1000 feet. So you would to need to know the actual length of the wire in the coil to calculate the actual resistance. There are a lot of factors in this calculation of inductor values.
Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance
And this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor
I think you need to get some fundamentals down before you start trying to build advanced projects.
Don't worry dude, you'll be working on cool projects before you know it...
OK, the season premier of Battlestar Galactica is almost on, I gotta go...
From what I read the number of turns is more of the benifit, and the bigger wires are amperage hogs, the resistance actually isn't that much when you have 12,000 more turns because it can fit in that space better than the bigger wire.
But I will try to find some of my old equations and calculate some things before I go ahead with this spool, but it seems like a very good deal.
Plus the informaiton I have ALL say that the smaller the gauge, the btter, and are exampled with 32 and 36 AWG, and these are credible sources.
But I will find the correct equations...would you like me to respond in this thread still?
My calculations are showing that the 36 AWG is ~6.2 times as density in the flux than 44AWG
I was doing calculations at the 1LB...but I guess the problem is that my doc is not doing correct proprtions, comparing 200 turns to 2,000 turns.
The other problem is why I started this thread, kind of...it was the length aspect did not outweigh the turn aspect
1lb of 44AWG is 80,000ft
1lb of 36AWG is 12,380ft
44AWG = .771307366 Amps
36AWG = 4.821600771 Amps
(from above posts)
2ft circumference
40,000 turns of 44AWG
6,190 turns of 36AWG
B, the Magnetic Flux density = Ni/l
40,000*.77/80,000=.385653683
6190*4.8/12380=2.410800386
...
2.410800386/.385653683 = 6.25120
So, I guess I figured out the if I always use 1lb(WHICH IS PROBLY THE OTHER INCONSISTENCY, AS BIGGER WIRE USUALLY HAVE FAR LESS TURNS/LESS WEIGHT...I NEED SOMEONE TO VERIFY THIS/GIVE ME CALCULATIONS)...and since the resistance is prob exponential, then the length and turns start to decrease power(even though the doc says MILIAMPS, AGAIN, VERIFY?? AS IT THEN USES LESS ELECTRICTY, AND I CAN EVEN MAKE THE SMALLER WIRE, BIGGER AWG, SPIN ONCE OR MORE TIMES??)
...so is it all about the resistance?
should I do more calculations and figure out which is actually the best?
(when I switch to meters it was the same proportions)
Okay, those calculations could be wrong, as I didn't do the resistance per 1,000ft...but only took 1,000 ft...and then started applying it to the rest...
if I do per thousand, @2KV
1lb of 36AWG = 5,135.224 Amps
1lb of 44AWG = 207,440 Amps
...WOW...
44AWG is 40.4 times as much as 36AWG.....not the other way around liek I originally claculated...so the extra mile does count!
...and I guess that's actually the way to do it? and the calculations did come out, since i am always using 1lb, to cancel stuff out, so the end result is that too...
so...am I correct NOW?
that 1lb of 44AWG is 40.4 times better than 36AWG
or...was I right to begin with...and
1lb of 36AWG is still 6.2 times greater than 44AWG
Okay, here in an excel file, made in Gnumeric, I'm a linux guy, so tell me if it works, and the varriables didn't seem to change anything(volt and circumference) I have made a big table with the correct values etc...because of cancelation I guess the Volts and the circumference dont really matter in the comparisons
I do plan on getting the 44AWG, if it is this much better, per pound, the spreadhseet has all of them crossed, but I will only paste 44 here
44 1
40 6.00787766450417
39 9.70404623736647
38 16.5387433457151
37 26.4756296321822
36 40.3955114713594
35 63.3611592184317
34 101.453900319
33 163.977060285916
32 262.665400443178
31 401.195230681455
30 641.149271814653
29 1042.59805141118
28 1588.11820548155
27 2560.41867239379
26 4045.63627498781
25 6408.40284213778
24 10110.9849241822
23 16349.9507389163
22 25609.8765432099
21 40610.806577917
20 65008.8531628512
19 103127.019637087
18 162417.788913248
All I can say it do the experiment. You need to experience inductors first hand. By doing the experiment. I would suggest starting small, but you probably won't. Post your progress here. We all were in your place at one time. Found this cool new project. Gonna build it tight now, regardless of how much knowledge you have. This is how you gain experience and character. Please build the project, and report your progress here.
OK, Mo Later...
If I do post here, we might have to move it to the correct folder/forum, since it might be an ed gray motor...I couldn't figur eout where I should ask this question, so I just picked one.
Send a personal message to Stefan, he's the moderator.
There is a section for Ed Gray motors.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/board,36.0.html
that's why I would mention it, but I need to make sure it's one of those, becasue I think the Gray patent that I have is more magnet than electromagnet, more perpetual motion than control
so I may not bother...and then just start a new thread for when I start
@EvilXBOX
Too much of anything is not too good. You're saying if xx awg is good then 44 awg is better is not necessarily true so you should watch out before trying.
44 awg wire is generally used in bundled Litz wire. The wire is so thin that it has to be bundled with 7 or more of the same to be used. Applications are generally for very high frequency and next to no amperage.
If you wind a coil with this, it will have to be perfectly wound, no overlaps, no empty spaces. If you plan on sending 2000 volts even at low amps, you will have aching inside the coil if there is the slightest void. This arching will break the wire deep inside the coil and then you will be really stuck.
I think you are mistaking wire mass, with wire length. You can have one pound of wire at 44 awg and one pound of wire at 34 awg. Both will fit the same coil dimension. But for the 44 awg to generate the appropriate magnetic field effect to do the work it is designed to do, it may require more voltage to overcome the inherent resistance of the coil, to the extent that the wire itself will not hold, whereas the 34 awg has the same pound value and could probably be driven at a more convenient voltage level to both produce the mag field required and also to ensure a modicum of system durability.
44 AWG is almost impossible to wind manually. You would need some very solid jig setup to ensure perfect wire alignment, non stress wrapping or it will simply break. ouch.
I understand that I have to be careful with such a tiny wire breaking.
and I had each pound/feet correct, if you look at oemwire.com I used their measurements
More voltage is not a problem, the problem is the amps alot of the time...the point of when the thinner wire becomes a benifit is in the number of winds/length...pound per pound thinner is better, and unless the energy going into it becomes heat, the resistance is more like a resistor after a capicitor, it will use up only a little at a time, that's why bigger wires are called amperage HOGs
@EvilXBOX
When motors have heavier awg windings it is mainly because they are rated at much higher torques so they draw more volts/amps. All of these schemes will have good and bad sides and creators have to find the right middle ground. I still say 44 awg is kind of extreme on one side. One bad flyback and those windings will toast. But you will learn this as you go along.
I do plan on covering the rotors with some red paint to make sure it never grounds, amongst other things...and this is just a deal, so I figured it would be better to jump on it while it's around
oh, and I actually have two flyback transformers fram a tv and a monitor that I might figure out how to use if it makes the spark I need, because dont those go up to 20KV?
If you want to wind a small coil to pulse as an electromagnet on a clock pendulum ( one of the few applications I've ever heard of using such small wire) then #44 could be appropriate.
A pulse coil/electromagnet is all about Amp-Turns (AT). There are two primary considerations for maximizing AT: Amps through coil and # of Turns in coil. The third is resistance.
There are many ways to mix and match - it's almost more of an art than science in some ways....but...
Using many, many turns of tiny wire will NOT produce a more powerful electromagnet as the huge resistance in such a coil will result in TINY Amperage through coil. The more turns, the less the amps - so it's almost self defeating - BUT - amps is almost more important - especially as the resistance grows. 100,000 turns at .000001 amps will be a very weak coil. The idea is to find a compromise. Target your prefered amp draw - wind a coil of a complementary resistance.
Having wound many, many different styles of coils over the last few months (30 different kinds) - I find that #22 to #26 is a good size. (for low amp draw - larger wire for higher amps ie. #14)
Examples of 1" x 1" coils on a 3/8" x 3" tap bolt core.
#1) #22 AWG 125? 2.3 ohm coil: (1 1/4" w x 1" h)
Meter: 1.03V x .43A = .44W 206 AT
#2 ) #22 AWG 40? .7 ohm coil: (3/4" w x 1" h)
Meter: .6V x .9A = .54 watts 144 AT
#3) #26 AWG 75? 2.8 ohm coil:
Meter: 1.12V x .42A = .47W 150 AT
#4) #30 AWG 200' 30.7 ohm coil:
Meter: 1.42V x .044A = .062W 52 AT
Notice the small AT's of coil #4 even though it uses more feet and # of turns of wire.....
So a ton of turns of #44 AWG will be of such high resistance you would have a hard time getting enough amps though it to give any significant amp-turns.
You talk about voltage - voltage will only figure into the total power consumed. The strength of the coil depends on Amps.
CH
I'm still standing by the miliAmp theory as it doesn't require all that energy, and more turns make the EM Flux Desnsity...the thinner outperforms if you use enough of it, which I will...I need to check if it always outperforms though.
I'm not concerning myself with larger amps, so anyone reading and replying to this thread, be sure your aim is with miliamps, and I can explain it once more...pretend you have a capicitor fully charged, and a big resister(thinner wire)...the time it takes to difuse it all versus a smaller resistor, is much larger, when doing the same application, means with the same energy, I will still open and collapse a feild, which is the other main gain point.
still letting current through, whch is what we want, I just want 2KV going up and down very often, just not alot of it going through
I should prob use a diff word than mag flux density since the smaller the wire, the less dense, but the point it you save energy back, and you do huge voltage for a constant on/off of KV sizes
You seemed to have already made up your mind before starting this thread as you seem to ignore/invalidate the suggestions/advice offered you.
Good luck winding your 8 mile long #44 AWG coils. ::)
@CaptHook
Let him be right. And he will be right. Right up until he throws the power switch and puts 20KV across a bizillion turns of number 44, and melts the wire leading into the coil. But I think the really, really fun part will be winding a bizillion turns of #44. Better make a good jig to do that. I have a hard time with #30. My current coil that I am playing with only has 3920 turns of #26, and it took me two weeks to build. Of course it is very large and made from iron pipe. But you know we were all there once, and someday EvilXBOX will look back and say Doh!
Z.Monkey
z.monkey - ROFL :D
- - -
What about your core? What are you going to use? What is its saturation point?
Have you ever wound a coil? Do you know how long it would take you to PROPERLY wind an 8 mile long coil? 100 hours would be a low guess..... IF you could even get a whole coil wound without breaking it (doubtful)
The point is - you can obtain a comparably powerful coil with low power draw using common volts/amps with a manageable wire/coil size.
Start off small - - -
8 miles of #44 x 4? FORGET IT DUDE - REALLY!!!!!!
CH
BTW: if you calculate the AT from the data you provided:
2000V / 10372000R = 1.928e-4 amps
1.928e-4Ax 40,000 turns = 7.713 Amp-Turns
All of the simple coil examples I gave you BLOW that out of the water and consume about the same amount of power.....( yours .39 watts / 7.7 AT - mine .44 watts 206 AT)
So for 10% more power I'll get 2900% more Amp-Turns. ;D
Anyone wanting to spec coil design should check out this handy on-line Inductor Simulator:
http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/inductorsim.htm
@capthook
Thanks for the link. I had been looking for something like this program on and off for sometime now.
Here is another useful link for wire specs:
http://circuitcalculator.com/wordpress/2007/09/20/wire-parameter-calculator/
And another inductor calculator:
http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/inductor/
CH
Here is the ideal coil spec I have derived for my project and will be winding tommorrow:
#26 AWG / 250? / 10 ohm / 1250T
1.23V x .24A = .295W (how did I derive this? Attached my power supply (1 "AA" battery) to a variable resistor set to 10 ohm and tested with DMM)
.24A x 1250T = 300 AT
So 300 AT @ .295W consumption - pretty sweet IMO.......
CH
Why can't I find any information on Amp Turns?
Give me a wiki link, or similar
thanks
oh no, my calculator died going to the reply page...oh well, computer only now..until I get 4 AAA....
this is what capthook posted, to my one pound that I have already calculated
2,000V, 2ft circumference
44 AWG / 80,000' / 207440 ohm / 40,000T
2,000V * 0.00964134207482 Amps = 19.2826841496336 W
0.00964134207482 Amps * 40,000T = 385.653682992673 AT
385.653682992673 AT @ 19.2826841496336 W consumption @2,000V
...tell me what to compare it with?
to one pound of 26 AWG...
24378.3520234032AT @ 78010.7264748903 W
tell me what else to compute?
the ratio of my AT/W is 20 for 44AWG(on the dot) and 0.3125 for 26AWG
Updated spreadsheet so you can play with values
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetomotive_force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetomotive_force is what I was about to paste in here, as someone in EFNet just linked me(I found it before, but this time I bookmarked it)
Does anyone know of an OverUnity chatroom on IRC??
I think I will get that spool today, on the 7th
..a little more than half a pound for each rotor doesn't sound bad or anything, I just wonder how powerful it will be with my other techniques I am using
Quote from: EvilXBOX on April 07, 2008, 01:26:31 AM
385.653682992673 AT @ 19.2826841496336 W consumption @2,000V
...tell me what to compare it with?
Your coil: 386 AT / 19.28 W =
20 AT per wattThe coil I am winding: 300 AT / .295 W =
1017 AT per wattAnd the coil is small, cheap, easy to wind and uses common/small volts/amps.
You seem like a bright guy - you have a basic grasp of some of the fundamentials. However, you certainly can choose to ignore the good ideas presented to you and do it your way - but I would discourage it.
CH
that was for 1.5v, not 2,000...use my spreadsheet to determine things, I havent sat down to figure out the exact differences though
Quote from: EvilXBOX on April 07, 2008, 03:22:53 AM
that was for 1.5v, not 2,000...
Huh? A watt is a watt is a
WATTPower (watts) = Volts x Amps
A 100W lightbulb will use 100W of power in 1 hour.
It doesn't matter if its: 1V x 100A or 100V x 1A : it all equals 100W
So my coil consumption at 1.5v and yours at 2,000 v - when converted to WATTS - is the SAME UNITS.
My coil will outperform yours by 5,085%
You should spend a few weeks reading this site - time better served then winding your proposed coil:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/
pound per pound mine will outperform, I htink, that's what my spreadsheet said, and I did compute it for your sizes and got your measurements, so I know I have the right equations in there
maybe it's not pound per pound, but at the point of if I do less of one thing, like if the weights are different, then there is a threshold
@EvilXBOX
Does your spreadsheet say when the coil will blow? lol (It was too tempting.)
I would say 2 minutes max.
But trying it is the only way to see for yourself.
Don't forget that at each rotation the flyback will be several times higher then the applied power. It will be even higher voltage. Just be careful.
it was an ebay thing and I fell asleep...
was sold for just $3 more than starting bid, $33, plus $18 S/H
oops, it was a long night last night, no sleep....shit
and nothing on of ighpoundage right now and high gauge...
does anyone know of a MUCH better place than oemwire.com?
Seller said he had another spool, might just be one, but I think I want to get it
The breakdown voltage of similar datasheets of the same maker range from 4-6.5KV
I will call them soon and check to see if they have exact ones(not for the model on the site) and also for the correct AWG
if 4kv...that can still handle my 1-2kv jsut fine, right? and you're suppose to start out small? like, let's say if in a car, 2kv is the top with your foot down, but the bottom needs to have enough to move a ton
not sure if I said this already, but I plan my displacement to be 3L
One use for 44 AWG. wire is in making litz wire. I bought some litz wire made of 176 strands of 44 AWG wire.
But litz wire is very expensive to buy, it cost me $70 for 200ft.
But you can make your own with miles of 44 AWG wire.
This is what I thought you were planing to do when you mentioned 44 miles of wire.
For $5 you could make hundreds of dollars worth of litz wire
Litz wire is used because it can transform high frequency AC with more efficiency.
High frequency electricity only moves on the surface of a conductor so the more surface area the
more current can flow. Also multi strand wire has a capacitance between the strands that aids DC.
Of coarse the wire has to be insulated, bare copper wire won't work.
So maybe litz wire is what your looking for, do some research on it.
test,Just want to come back here later.triffid
Actually, the second auction, which I will try to win, of 2.82 lbs, ends in like 3 hours :)
Please do not be an ass and bid against me, wait for another to show up
I have a spool of #44 guage transformer wire. I guess it is around a 1lb or less, if anyone is interested. I have no use for it. Paid $5.00 at a junk shop.
Brad
No kidding? I am VERY interested
the acution is $30 + $18 S/H for 2.82 lbs, it's Shelhav wire, which is the only distrobuter in Israel, I htink
I still want this wire, but I may also want yours for testing, as I woudl only have 0.17 lbs to test with for this wire, so this oculd be the main one, not the testing one?
$5.00 plus shipping and you got it if you want it. pm me and we can set it up.
Brad
I won the auction!!
Shelhav 44 AWG rated at 130 C
2.82 lbs of it
and I am arranging for that one pound that was recently added to this thread, as that will be the expierement, and this the final product
arrived today
rated at 130 C
pic for size relaitonship to ordinary house keys
again, 2.88 lbs of 44AWG
@EvilXBOX
Now that you have your wire, you may want to look at the following thread. @handyguy1 has a pretty nifty device and he will be using some 44 awg wire soon.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3865.msg97037.html#msg97037
See how his device is more appropriate when using the 44 awg wire because there is no actual rotary stress, heat, practically no BEMF, etc.
I got a 555 timer yesterday to power my flyback transformer to charge up the capacitors, but I havent been able to see a pulse, I dont have an osciliscope, but no matter what I do with the pot and rewiring it I can get it to do anything, not yet...working on that.
and I think my project needs back emf, or at least I like the idea a lot.