This is a concept that I came up with a little while ago. In an effort to explain the concept to others I seemed to run into the same problem perpetually. (not intended to be a pun but funny nun the less) for some reason the way this machine would work, is difficult to convey, so I constructed this video in an attempt to make things easier on myself and hopefully share the idea with others.
http://www.freewebs.com/mymechanism
you can also find the video on youtube under the title "free hydrogen idea"
On a side note the calculations in the video are wrong. The actual buoyant force of the hydrogen gas (excluding the oxygen that will also be produced) is
45,947.472 lbs. At the surface
22,973.736 lbs at ten feet
11,486.868 lbs at twenty feet
5,743.434 lbs at thirty feet
2,871.717 lbs at forty feet
1,435.8585 lbs at fifty feet.
If simply getting the seemingly "excessive" gearing moving takes 1000 lbs of force (an overestimate in my opinion) that?s an extraordinary amount of EXCESS force that can be redirected to the generator, even at fifty feet of depth.
When I did the calculations myself I used common air, a mix of nitrogen, oxygen, argon, and carbon dioxide. Hydrogen is four times lighter.
In the above calculations I failed to include the force of the oxygen that would also be produced. This can be contained in a separate chamber to keep the hydrogen at industrial grade. So in effect the actual overall force is greater then even these current calculations.
From what I can tell the volume of oxygen created is approximately ? the volume of the hydrogen if this is correct, the numbers below show the correct forces at depth.
68,921.208 lbs. at the surface
34,460.604 lbs at ten feet
17,230.302 lbs at twenty feet
8,615.151 lbs at thirty feet
4,307.5755 lbs at forty feet
2,153.78775 lbs at fifty feet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2346.0.html
That is a really cool idea !! a column generator makes power produces fuel food for thought thanks I will play with this Your a smart fellow CHET
Kalash im sorry to tell you this but I posted the idea first back on 4 18 2007. On a website called educatedearth.net
http://www.educatedearth.net/video.php?id=3141
I have actually attempted to build this device a few times to grate determent to my wallet and to no avail. I simply do not have the funding to do it correctly. But it is nice to know that others have had the same idea and believe it could work.
Quote from: whatisgod on April 05, 2008, 02:08:27 PM
This is a concept that I came up with a little while ago. In an effort to explain the concept to others I seemed to run into the same problem perpetually. (not intended to be a pun but funny nun the less) for some reason the way this machine would work, is difficult to convey, so I constructed this video in an attempt to make things easier on myself and hopefully share the idea with others.
http://www.freewebs.com/mymechanism
you can also find the video on youtube under the title "free hydrogen idea"
. . . .
That is a very clever concept. However, you need to figure out the answer to the following question. To what degree does the energy cost of electrolyzing water rise with water pressure?
From another standpoint, why do you even need to electrolyze water? Just make a hot coil and boil it and then generate electricity by capturing the bouyancy of rising bubbles of steam.
WELL as pointed out on his site the lift potential of hydrogen is what gives this badboy some horsepower maybe elephant power [see him swim at the site] Chet PS the price for producing hydrogen is dropping by the second [just visit DR STIFFLER's thread]
i think ELSA had the same idea even before us :)
but who knows maybe it's been thought of even way back in time before ELSA and others.
from the ELSA thread:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D2566.0%3Battach%3D9749%3Bimage&hash=2bcc070c878fd39f80816d57dfc8a935e314057b)
QuoteTo what degree does the energy cost of electrolyzing water rise with water pressure?
Back in the days of my physical chemistry study there was the nernst equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation, I think the part of interest is the -RT/zF term. Most reactions which make products which are of greater volume than the starting products are hindered by increased pressure, some might go faster Burning propellants for example due to other effects but the underlying reaction is hindered and can even be halted with enough pressure.
After hours of digging on the web I have a few questions that pertain to this idea.
Can anyone help?
1) I continue to find information about ?high pressure electrolysis? what is this all about? http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:High_Pressure_Electrolysis
2) What would be the dampening of the effect at the different depths be anyway? Will the elephant have its feet tied together or not?
3) If the same effect is applied to boiling water is the overall energy needed greater then or less then that which you would need to attain the equivalent volume of gas? An insulated heating coil could be used inside an open tube to contain the heat and transfer it directly to the water with the smallest amount of heat loss possible. Sort of like a jet engine for boiling water under water.
4) On a side note I was wrong again the pressure increces by one atmosphere every 33 feet not every 10 so the overall depth would be 165 feet.
68,921.208 lbs. At the surface
34,460.604 lbs at 33 feet
17,230.302 lbs at 66 feet
8,615.151 lbs at 99 feet
4,307.5755 lbs at 132 feet
2,153.78775 lbs at 165 feet.
This thing is getting big. Maybe a rope and pulley system would be more efficient in transferring the energy to a generator then a shaft that, can withstand 68,921.208lbs of pressure. Or some type of multi piston system but at that point I believe it is getting overly complicated.
What do they say K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid.
@whatisgod
1) i think what u r finding is all about the electolysers that operate under high pressure for purpose of direct storage of hydrogen produced.So no pumps,just the gas being produced makes all the pressure.
2)I can imagine that higher pressure makes the bubbles of H and O smaller,allowing the more water molecules to come in contact with the electrodes,allowing more Amperage and more HHo production.So in fact u can more efficiently use the surface of the electrodes.A bubble that sits attached to the electrode surface takes this surface out of the game(as no water comes in contact with the electrode there).Smaller bubble takes less electrode surface out of the game for the same amount of H or O stored in this bubble under lower pressure.It is how i see the thing,just the theory though.
3)here some facts,water expands around 1600 times when coming from fluid to gas form(1 l of water will give u 1600l of gas).To bring the water to boil u have to heat it up first to 99,7deg C.It will require u 4190 J/kgK.So for every kg of water u use,to bring it 1K(=C) degree closer to 99,7 u need 4190 J of energy.That was if u did it under normal pressure.Withhigher pressure u need higher temp.u need more 6degC for every 100mmHg.
Once the water is at boiling, still more energy must be added. This is given by the heat of vaporization, which for water is 40.7 kJ / mol or 2261 Joules per gram.
put it all together and u wil have ur answer ;)
greetz,
Mr.Rain
.
Isn't electrolysis harder when you add pressure?
1. So a flowing water source, some type of vibration, a rippled or perforated surface, could keep the anode and cathode clear of bubbles thus improving a fuel cell? I like it.
2. After some more searching I cant seem to find info on increased hydrogen production at higher pressure. Can anyone confirm or negate this?
3. The deeper you dive in water the lower the temperature, so that needs to be considered in the boiling water concept as well.
4. What about the temperature of the electrolyzed water, is that a factor in electrolysis.
i personally made 27 lbs of pressure in my electrolyser, this is what happened the bubbles at the top, seemed to hit the open air quicker to a point then as the pressure got higher it seemed to not have that effect more of a frozen "popsicle" type shit.
basicly it worked better in the beginning because there was a smaller foamy area with more water n electrodes butwhen there waas over like 15lbs of pressure the bubbles seemed to slow way down.
i think vaccume electrolysis is the way to go but there too to only a point imagine a pull on the wfc pulling the bubbles up, but too much and maybe youd get some water in the lines. idk too much of anything is bad i guess what im gonna do is adjust my check valve so there is vacuume pressure n my cell but there will be outside air being drawn into the water bubbling up as well,for the car application. but if i where going to run a lawn mower id just close that and make shure i could make enough hho on demand to keep her runnin with a small amount of psi in the electrolyser.
2. After some more searching I cant seem to find info on increased hydrogen production at higher pressure. Can anyone confirm or negate this?
The pressure you are talking about is small, the nernst equation will allow you to calculate the increase in cell voltage that the increased pressure will cause. The quantity of gas produced has little to do with pressure
3. The deeper you dive in water the lower the temperature, so that needs to be considered in the boiling water concept as well.
No that depends on the convection currents in your vessel, actually water boils at a higher temperature the deeper you go due to increased pressure. Remember the gas is measured in moles or by weight not by volume as the volume is not constant.
4. What about the temperature of the electrolyzed water, is that a factor in electrolysis.
Yes the conductivity of water increases with increasing temperature and the overpotential decreases with increasing temperature.
One thing you have not mentioned is the work done by the expanding gas (the bubbles expand as they rise), is the expansion adiabatic or isothermal or somewhere in between, for the latter two cases the expanding gases will extract heat from the water.
So then the problem is the bubbles attach to the surface and do not releas at higher pressure? I have been lost in thought about this potential problem since I posted the last comment and here are some ideas that I have come up with to over come this.
VIBRATION
Can someone confirm the vibration idea (it worked for me) I just use a battery-powered toothbrush on the side the container. It seemed to work on my hand-powered cell but I do not have the proper measuring devices to appropriately confirm this test. Sound seems like it would be more appropriate for this as the pitch and tone can have an impact on its effectiveness.
I haven?t had a chance to test some the different ideas about changing the surface of the cell plates yet. (I ran out of my stock of razor blades. I do these experiments on a budget.) But here they are in no specific order.
1). Perforations to increase the overall surface area of the plate and help the bubbles slide away from the surface. Slits or elongated teardrop shapes could do this I think.
2). Vertical scratches or ripples like potato chips to help the bubbles slide up the surface of the cell plate as long as the valleys are covered with something that will not conduct electricity.
3). Maybe covering the plate in a way that only a specific area that is shaped to a point can produce the gas, like vertical needles. This could allow the bubbles to clear themselves in a chain reaction as they rise and slide up the needle to the surface.
4). Straw like tubes with the outside surface covered allowing the bubbles to produce a vertical flow of water inside tube the chain reaction in this could be beneficial as well.
5). Cone shaped cell plates could assist in the ?chain reaction? idea as well but separating the two gasses could become a problem with this.