??? Hey Lads and Lasses ???
New to the site not to the work ive finally desided i cant go it alone we gotta band together to band together to beat this HHo production problem.
so starting now i will be publishing my work on here hoping i spike an interest in it.. so far i have only been refining designs currently on the market and using wat i find to come up with my own ideas and generate a new approach to this issue,,
first thing is computer control of the pulse and gate train.. then moving on from there.. see Attached a finished PCB design for a modifiable gate and pusle train based on stans d14 design with a few modern tweaks for building and proformance .. and use in a car or my case a motor cycle....
hope to see some feed back..
as this will keep on comming as i start computerizing my design.. and much much more ..
Its all about stressing the bonds in the water ...
What are you using for source clock?
Thanks
on the model show above the clocking is done by the circuit its self.. on the design in the works im using a atmel Atmega88 32 pin config with internal 8mhz clock .. might have to use a crystal to get desired range i need.... that and some digital pots for control of the circuit..
its still very in the design stage,,,
i have a lot of experiance with digital design and frequency modulation using atmel pic's .. they have millions of uses..
Howdy Lanmasterd,
That circuit looks like this...
http://freenrg.info/Hydrogen/D14_Updated_Dave_Lawton_Circuit.pdf
Do you have a schematic for the computer controlled circuit?
Well, with a microprocessor based design you could lock in the pulse train. With the potentiometers your pulse train will be shifting around every time the humidity changes. I have been knocking around ideas here in overunity.com for a while. I have seen a few designs but it seems that no one is willing to put in the engineering effort to actually design anything. Here is a brief synopsis of what I feel a HHO controller needs to be a reliable controller of HHO production in a commuter vehicle.
1. Solid state, automotive quality electronics.
2. Microprocessor or microcontroller controlled pulse train.
3. High voltage stainless steel Electrolyzer.
4. Mass air sensor.
5. Exhaust oxygen sensor.
6. Engine RPM sensor.
7. Throttle position sensor.
8. Vehicle speed sensors.
Modern gasoline engine management computers do an excellent job of measuring airflow into an engine and metering the fuel to exactly the perfect ratio. This is what makes modern engines so crisp and responsive. When you romp on the gas pedal the car moves, no questions asked. The modern consumer will expect no less from a an HHO powered vehicle. This is a fairly difficult situation to deal with. Not only is a modern engine management system controlling the fuel metering it is also controlling the spark timing. In order to replace the gasoline engine management system you have to replace the gasoline with HHO but also monitor the array of sensors around the engine and produce the spark timing to run the engine. This task in and of itself is pretty large. Most experimenters that I have encountered want to produce HHO and pipe it into the engine and nothing else.
If you want to make HHO fueled internal combustion engines a reality there has to be one of two scenarios happen. The first scenario is to redesign the engine management system to handle HHO instead of gasoline. Use the same sensors around the periphery of the motor and replace the central computer to run an electrolyzer instead of the fuel injectors. The spark timing can remain the same, but first you have to understand the spark timing before you can program it into a new engine management control computer. Designing the computer controlled ignition spark timing is something the auto manufacturers have spent years developing. The second scenario is use the original engine management computer which can read all the sensors around the engine, control the spark timing and we really don't need to know much about the inner workings of the engine management computer itself. But the tricky part about this is interfacing the fuel injector pulses to the HHO generation system. As the engine increases in speed the fuel injectors fire more frequently. We can use these pulses to drive the HHO Electrolyzer. Whether this is possible directly or indirectly is yet to be seen. It may be possible to wire the fuel injector wire directly to the coil that produces the high voltage pulses that drive the HHO electrolyzer. But then again there may be a possibility of signal crossover, in this case we can design an interface circuit that uses the fuel injector pulses as inputs, then develops a slightly modified pulse train that runs the HHO Electrolyzer. This is where a small processor would come in handy to monitor the fuel injector pulses and generate an arbitrary pulse train based on those pulses to drive the HHO Electrolyzer.
I'm including a schematic of a possible digitally controlled HHO driver circuit.
OK, Have fun with that...
thanks for the replay z.Monkey
the info you provided was handy.. yes the pbc above is the D14 design as i stated in my post..
im using it as a test bed and conditioner for my coils currently,,i have 3 of then each set for different pulse trains.. first is slow and long second it matched pulse to gate and 3rd is high pulse high gate,, i leave my coild attacted to each of these for 3 days to have them conditioned.. and dry then in oven ..
yes i do agree that all parts must be solid state and no moving parts.
My schematic will be available in a week of so with work latly ive been home late so the weekend ill have time off to do it rite..
IM not gonna be doing digital fuel injection first im gonna work from a simple carb and spark and timing .. then once that is working ill move to a computer based fuel injection system..
keep it simple.. Occam's razor
The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.
yes and it does happen to often we have people how say but not do but i butld all the time im now finally publishing my work..
Free energy Free Ideas is my moto..
ill update with my details for my design later in the week
Lanmasterd
. I have diagrams but can't make a pc board. :'( I have a standard carb system, so I hope you
continue with this type of system. hope to keep on monitoring.
Howdy Lefferdink,
Hey, we were all there once. Get a chunk of protoboard and solder some components to it. Wire them together, then try it out. If it doesn't work figure out why and fix it. Every master was once a noob... It looks like we'll be starting out with a simple, basic electrolyzer. I would like to make a full blown engine management system, but it is probably better to start with a simple system first. I think I am going to try to run my lawn mower on HHO before I convert the Lexus...
OK, Mo Later...
Hey lefferdink
yeah its deffinatly gonna be a carb system first as i wouldnt risk tampering with my car unless i knew it would work.. and since im adding the system to my 250cc motor cycle it will see improvements from the get go..
hey z monkey
the lawnmower is a good idea but is ur lawnmower 2 or 4 stroke as i can seen a 4 stroke being easyer to mess waith from work with my mini 4 stoke gasiline engines for my model planes.
and i have a hyrdogen cylinder and ive tested the engine running on pure H2 worked a charm if not to good.. but first off were concentration on control and production..
Im sticking with the chip i have picked out the ATMEGA88 pDip 28 it has enough out puts and inputs for monitoring. it also has a lot of features
Two Independent Output Compare Units
Double Buffered Output Compare Registers
Clear Timer on Compare Match (Auto Reload)
Glitch Free, Phase Correct Pulse Width Modulator (PWM)
Variable PWM Period
Frequency Generator
Three Independent Interrupt Sources (TOV0, OCF0A, and OCF0B)
this makes building the pcb design very simple.. and ill hve proper terminal shielded outputs..
more disigns to come ..
Finished the Usb to Uart serial controler last nite .. the controller is usb powered and will act as the interface for the device..
the Uart system is independent from the main board
ill have another Pcb update on my next post
Howdy Lanmasterd,
So are you using low voltage and high current on the electrolyzer, or high voltage and low current. I guess what I am asking is are you using an ignition transformer to driver the electrolyzer? What about the electrolyzer itself, how is yours constructed?
My digital driver was designed to be used with an electrical converter, but with that project I have moved on to a more specialized design. I have a couple of these boards hanging around, so I figured I would put them to use. HHO is an intriguing project so I decided to try that. So the heart of my board is a Microchip PIC18F4520 running at 20 Mhz. I have hardware PWM, but I was thinking that I would rather be bit banging a I/O pin to produce the pulses for the electrolyzer, especially if I was going to integrate the ignition coil. That would require relatively low frequency pulses. The driver section is a particularly gnarly MOSFET that has a pulsed drain current of 192 amps. The project that this was originally designed for needed fast, high current pulses. But that is handy for HHO as well. I have yet to built the electrolyzer bottle and the bubbler (if needed), but I have some experience with plumbing clean room equipment so that shouldn't be a problem.
So what language are you using with your Atmel processor? I have a BASIC compiler I like to use with my PICs, although I do program in assembly language when the BASIC compiler can't do what I want it to do. I'm using ICSP to program the parts on the board on the fly.
Also you seem to be a printed circuit board designer also. I'm a CID+. Are you a member of IPC?
Oh yeah, the lawnmower is a 4 cycle Briggs and Straton 4.5 horsepower. I have a 2 cycle string trimmer, but the problem with 2 cycle is the lubrication goes in with the fuel mixture, that is going to be a problem with HHO. I know with 2 cycle engines the fuel mixture flows through the crankcase to lubricate the engine before flowing into the combustion chamber. If we could seal the crankcase and use regular oil in there, and then port the HHO directly into the combustion chamber then the 2 cycle HHO could work. But that is a major redesign. Oh well, maybe someday...
OK, Mo Later...
Hi Guys: Am taking your advice, but...I have the diagram, solder, digital soldering gun, a board, but not enough parts. This one horse town that I live in has one run-down Radio Shak. Where else can I get a mosfets, LM741's, CD4069's? I wonder if Newark Electronics is still around?
Howdy Lefferdink,
Digikey, Mouser, Allied, and Jameco are a few that I can think of. All have internet catalogs and delivery service. Even in a one horse town you can find something. The hardware store might have some electric stuff. You might find a guy that has a bunch of electronic junk. You may not find the exact parts that you are looking for but may be able to cross reference them and come up with something usable. I have a lot of electronic junk, and I am always digging out a part here or there. Old TVs have lots of high voltage caps and diodes. Audio equipment is a good source of OP Amps and Power Amps. Just about everything that plugs into a wall socket has a transformer in it. Even an old Radio Shack should have the basic LM741, IRF511, and CMOS gates laying around. I had a need to build a bridge rectifier last night, so I went digging through the junk and found 4 brand new 1N5404s, nice and free!
My wife hates it, but electronic junk is gold!
Blessed Be Brother...
Hey lads was Up late again last nite designing.. so far Usb section is finished.. and the Dedicated 5v supply for the Atmel Atmega88 28pin finished..
Pcb will be double sided and components on single side only ..
Keeping with An Automotive design im going to be making all components through hole.. on the model.
we can worry about making things smalled later.. the over all unit size so far will be 5 inch tall 6.5 inch wide mounted in a aluminium Box with side finned design to act as a sort of cooling fins.. similar to a specker system amp.. in boy racer cars..
the cell design will be posted upon soon but im trying to do the electrics first.. keep the cell design till ive built all my needs into the pcb circuit..
With out drawing majour ampage does any one have ideas for stimulating production ...
ie ideas other then add extra power or electrolits . Water Has to stay Pure.. ull see y eventually..
yeah Digi key are great and if u are international custom to them if u ring them u get better delivery deals. i got nabed the first time didnt realise it was ups delivery and got charger 200 dollers for tax and delivery lol live ya learn..
Mouser are good and straight forward..
monkey i checked out that PIC18F4520 looks ok and might be suited for wat we would do.. but i see it dont have a built in frequancy generator..
that will add more to the board and make code writing a little longer..
I write in hex and c++ as they are the usable commands in All Atmel chips..
Not a mbr of IPC
I have a degree in Computer Programming and my skill in pcb design are from the work i do .. i work in a small prototyping company in ireland.. based in cork .. i do alot of my work from home.. in waterford..
the mower being B&S is handy there very rugged machines..
Ill message back soon
Howdy Y'all,
As for the Electrolzer it's self I have seen several designs. One has the spiral of wires on an insulating core in a glass jar of water, don't like that one. Another as concentric sets of stainless steel tubes, like that one better. A third has one set of stainless tubes and a second, smaller set of stainless tubes, the two set are oriented so that the smaller set sit inside the larger set, this is about the same as the concentric stainless tube set. All of these examples are producing HHO, but not efficiently for HHO on demand usage in a high volume application.
What I am visualizing is something akin to the plates inside of a lead acid battery. We have to maximize the surface area of the electrodes in the water. We need a plate like system, but not solid plates. There need to be perforations, or a grid like structure to the plate. Then we alternate the high voltage plates with the ground plates in rectangular vessel. I would like to think that this thing would look something like a car battery in its final form, including the electrodes on the top. Except that it would have a port for the HHO to come out, and a water in port. I think that high voltage is the way to go. The pulse train is something that I have not worked out yet, but it seems that other pulsers are not maintaining a continuous frequency. There is a packet of several pulses, and then a quiet period. Perhaps you could call it a frequency burst. The housing for the electrolyzer should be something that is automotive quality, and can take a lot of torsional stress so that it will be durable. I imagine that this technology, like most automotive technologies, will be proven in racing. So if we design it to be as rugged and durable as possible it would reduce the amount of redesign we would have to do later when someone wants to put it in a race car.
OK, Mo Later...
hi guys: I have been studying different types of Generators and would like to elaborate on the styles, if that is ok. The Meyers type is stronger than the box type. Some box types need a flat area of 20" x10" and liquid can slosh around. One person is using this method and the plates are 6"x6" @101 pieces of 316L @.062 thick and it needs 1/8" separation of the plates; plus he has to use koh additives. We are not going to use additives are we? To me it is a crutch. Meyers didn't use additives. His plates ( loose terms )are 1/6" spaced. The closer the plates the conductivity gets better.
Hi! I don't know anything about generators or HHO, so I can't help with that yet.
But I am working on a precision computer-controlled frequency generator, originally for TPU research and pulse charging. Now it can't do PWM (yet), but perhaps we can use it as the clock source for other circuits.
I am still working on the latest revision, and am waiting for parts. My hopes is that maybe by posting I can save others some time, so we don't always have to re-invent the wheel. My idea was to make the system to "scan" across a large frequency range, while the operator looked for interesting effects or there was automated data collection. To get the PWM you'd need to send the clock into high-speed shift-registers and adders/divers. So that is not built. But what I do have is programmable frequency generator (1Khz - 67Mhz) controlled by Arduino (Atmel) microcontroller, which is ultimately controlled by Java computer program using Serial over USB. So I hope this helps get more ideas out, feel free to check my blog or msg me, I am always interested in collaborating.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg393.imageshack.us%2Fimg393%2F7250%2Freson4temr9.jpg&hash=185756955938dfe2e0d4f35016e26aeb0bd43f45)
This was the original design. The main design change now is an OPA633 high-speed buffer before the MOSFET.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg206.imageshack.us%2Fimg206%2F8509%2Fltcsolderedmk1.jpg&hash=175bc77176197625f2779948f823666317b36c3b)
The 1khz - 67Mhz LTC6904 oscillator chips were MSOPs, so I soldered them to DIP converters.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg142.imageshack.us%2Fimg142%2F3571%2Farduinoltc1rm4.jpg&hash=89ffb4fad87913a2c935f9b3979848860d85d0b9)
This is the Arduino Microcontroller (Atmel), easily controlled over USB. The Arduino talks to the LTC6904 oscillator using the industry-standard two-wire I2C bus. Perhaps the only better bus protocol would be CAN (the automotive bus).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg145.imageshack.us%2Fimg145%2F2619%2Fltc69042dp8.jpg&hash=6bdc8da98446db97238583510ad526f9494e7760)
This shows the results of the first test, which was a steady 1.039khz square wave. We were very close.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg87.imageshack.us%2Fimg87%2F6949%2Farduinoltc3ph3.jpg&hash=0873dc18a8fd3ac76781b6d9dea8f7d519190324)
This is the code for the Arduino, showing how ridiculously easy it is to program. What you see sets the frequency to 8.21 khz. The entire program is pictured, there is no other code.
Lanmasterd, are you using a computer (serial over usb) to talk to your microcontroller?
If so, Free Energy Group is trying to make open-source standard for computer <-> microcontroller communications, so we can have modular Java control software which works on all our devices. Please let me know if you are interested in designing a common control protocol. The draft is based on get/set.
GK/Feynman/Free Energy Group Microcontroller Control Protocol v0.1draft
----==== Set Commands ====----
syntax: S,variable,value
S,E,0 #Set Enable to False (stop oscillators)
S,F1,21400 #Set Frequency1 to 21400 hz
S,F2,315200 #Set Frequency2 to 315200 hz
S,F3,40323 #Set Frequency3 to 40323 hz
S,E,1 #Set Enable to true (start oscillators)
----==== Get Commands ====----
syntax: G,variable
response: value
G,E # Get enable setting
G,F1 # Get Frequency1
G,F2 # Get Frequency2
G,F3 # Get Frequency3
Howdy Feynman,
So I guess that you are a printed circuit board designer also? I have seen you mention the LTC6904 a couple of times, once in a TPU thread. Does it have a shutdown pin? I don't think that we need a continuous frequency, but then again were still experimenting. If that part had a shutdown pin then we could give the electrolyzer bursts of whatever frequency.
A lot of these HHO setups just hookup the electrolyzer to DC power, that's it. But they have problems. The water gets ionized and starts to conduct current, then they get a current runaway situation and start blowing fuses.
Pulsed DC, like the Dave Lawton circuit, is basically switching DC on and off. That circuit is more efficient, you don't get the current runaway, but still uses a lot of current.
Then there is the high voltage circuit, like Stanley Meyers circuit, where the pulsed DC is hooked up to an ignition coil and the high voltage pulses go to the electrolyzer, which uses less current.
Then there is the curious modified alternator setup where they take the rectifier diodes out of an alternator and feed the alternating current to the electrolyzer.
It seems we have some good electronic experience in this thread. Of all the examples above pick out the qualities that are best and then design a circuit which has those qualities. For starters we would want something that is programmable and adjustable for experimenting. Then also we may want to have some amplifiers that can really kick the voltage up. Having only 12 volts in the vehicle we would also need to have a way of generating high voltage like an inverter or a DC to DC converter. If we need really high voltage we could always use a flyback coil or an ignition coil.
Out of all the HHO driver setups the one that makes the most sense to me is the modified alternator method. This way you are alternating the voltages on the plates of the electrolyzer. I am an electrical engineer, and I have experience designing audio frequency power amplifiers. Maybe we don't need a lot of power so much as the right frequency and wave shape. Did anyone ever see the movie Chain Reaction with Keanu Reeves? I have a design for frequency synthesizer and biamped power amplifier that is almost perfect to do this. If I kicked up the power supply to its limit (+/-18V) we may have something here.
OK, Mo Later...
Nope, the LTC6904 has no 'shutdown' pin unfortunately.
But To control the ON/OFF (PWM), I suspect you can just mix the output signal with a fast AND gate. I also agree one needs pulsed width 'bunches'. (ala Meyers).
AND gate
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F46%2FAnd.svg%2F128px-And.svg.png&hash=2ca1220ad4225a7105ed7fa0918676b2ced8ecaa)
I will reply more in a few hours
Okay, I will try to elaborate as well as answer your questions z.monkey. Now, let's pretend for a minute that we are only have square waves of 50% duty cycle. . . that's what the LTC6904 can do. So we only have these two square wave oscillators, and we can assign them each a programmable frequency, anywhere from 1khz to 67Mhz.
As I understand from Meyer, what he is doing is making "gated pulse trains". I thought about how to make these. We can accomplish this roughly with two square wave oscillators. Let's examine the image from Wikipedia entry, which comes from Stanley Meyer's water fuel cell patent.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg402.imageshack.us%2Fimg402%2F4261%2F800pxwaterfuelcellcircuxj5.png&hash=b0eb2863fa93c63eba259a9cf213525b8bf040c1)
Look closely at the part where you see the Gated Pulse Train. Basically what we have is an underlying square wave which has parts cut out of it. So that means we can describe this with two waves.
a carrier wave: This is the higher frequency of the two waves. It appears to be 50% duty cycle.
a modulation wave: This is the lower frequency of the two waves. From Meyer's patent diagram, we can see the modulation wave appears to be 2/5 the frequency of the carrier wave. Additionally, the modulation wave has a duty cycle of 60%.
But let's put the pulse width details aside for a moment, and get back to pure square waves. We can make these gated pulse trains synthetically, using digital logic. It can be done simply with two programmable oscillators coupled with a high-speed AND gate.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg381.imageshack.us%2Fimg381%2F4622%2Fcarrierml1.png&hash=79eb2c97d85dbf3849e490d5e12274fdd590f91a)
(this is just an example, it's not same frequencies as Meyer)
The carrier wave is the higher frequency source wave. The PWM wave is the modulation wave. They are being combined via a simple AND gate. So basically, with two frequencies going into an AND gate and replicate the 'pulse train' bunches.
Now, we can get very close with square waves, but ideally we want that 60% duty cycle for the modulation wave, if that's what Meyer was using.
Meyer electrolysis:
carrier wave: 42khz
modulation wave: 16.8khz (2/5 of carrier).
These frequencies are easily achievable by the LTC6904 programmable oscillator. ;)
WOW nice responces were deffinatly hitting the rite notes here lads..
Ok firstly the arduino nice tool it is.. i actually dont have one yet but my usb to uart board design with Atmege88 28pin and 5v deditated supply will do me its basiclly the same just more raw..ive learned from the past that i test and do better with prototypes .ie build a bit perfect it and move on.. so im working on this like from scratch so a board with pc controler and regulater power .. Assuming we only have a 12v 7Ah battery to use,,
yep you heard me..
12v 7Ah you now must be thinking im nuts.. but wait.. there reason behind my nutty {LOW} battery power ..
Firstly the idea will be like as in a slightly older deisel car u turn key it heats up then starts ... the same thing ill want on my Test MotorBike.. i get on .. flick switch that start up my {reactor} and once a head of pressure is detected by the pcd control system it will allow me start the engine..
who needs to be rushing to get started like a petrol.. im looking at about 30sec to a min prestart time.. and like wise when i power down i want a safty feature so ill use a pressure bleeder into the exhuast system,, nice and simple..
my cell design will be simple yet effeective high reaction area .. still looking for plate design to do this.. effectivly.. the cell is importent dont get me wrong but control is vital..
Nice work so far on the java setup id be interested in knowing more.. jave might be handy i was thinking my self that the atmel atmega88 and 168 both have good lcd ability which i was gonna include for monitoring..
the unit im building for all the control and monitor is so far 6.5 inch by 5 inch and thickness well not sure yet depends on some componts
the resonant charging choke.. i dont think we will need .. im leaning more towards Very High Voltage + very tight plate Packing + PURE WATER [OR RAIN WATER] IF U ARE STUCK TO RUN THE CELL..
the high voltage i got an idea last nite when i was brushing my dog lol yeah odd i know she is a german shepard and i use a Ion brush to keep her coat good.. and me being me i put the brush in my back pocket and forgot it was there.. anyway i jumped into the armchair to hear a crack and smash lol.. low and behold i saw a nice inside view of my dog brush .. and wat did i find.. a battery 2 aa's and a switch and a simple Hv circuit.. steping it up to 600v low amps by means of a sinply invertor and cap diode lader like below
{------}
{------} transformer / invertor not sure not labled..
{------}
|
--[ ]--- cap B 471K 3KV
|--->|-- DIODE R3000F
--[ ]---| cap B 471K 3KV
|--|<--- DIODE R3000F
--[ ]---| cap B 471K 3KV
|-->|--- DIODE R3000F
--[ ]---| cap B 471K 3KV
|--|<-- DIODE R3000F
--[ ]--| cap B 471K 3KV
|-->|------ DIODE R3000F
--MVM--| RESISTOR 2R3
|
|
|
HIGH VOLTAGE OUT
Anyway im looking into the parts in this design and seeing wat kind changes i need to make to have it support my 12v supply and little higher current..
-------------------------------------------------------
i also have one other thing guys but im keeping it under wraps till i have my proven test done be for i go ahead with it.. not so much a secert but if it didnt work no point mentionsing it..
---------------------------------------------------------
Anyway thats all for now.. feel free to PM me if u need any questions answered or wanna share ideas..
Lanmasterd
Thanks lanmasterd.
Some of you may point out that finding an AND gate of sufficient switching speed may be difficult. There is no way you will find a suitable component at Radio Shack. . . they are just too slow. Well , problem solved! Introducing the 74G08 high-speed gigahertz AND gate, from Potato Semiconductor. These guys make the fastest logic chips available. It's just a simple AND gate that has rise time under 1ns and can switch up to 1.1Ghz.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4549%2F74g080qs4.jpg&hash=99b651b8b681f38d98569b11fe5d3684d45f1c91)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg84.imageshack.us%2Fimg84%2F1600%2F74g081ox5.jpg&hash=9c5536656992bee15c1979f66a37e2f75ffbd94a)
You can get these chips on ebay for about $1 apiece.
http://cgi.ebay.com/7408-G-Series-GHz-TTL-CMOS-logic-IC-14pin-SOIC-QTY-10_W0QQitemZ330223129020QQcmdZViewItem?IMSfp=TL0803270830a24281
Hey feynman
was checking out the ltc6904 chip the one u recommended .. your rite it doesnt have a shut down pin but it does have a nice feature that does the same job with the rite coding..
Output pin enable/disable..
that would do for gating .. as all gating is doing is reducing Amp draw.. in the end of the day.. since the battery is only importent for the first 5 mins of use till alternator gets going then we shouldnt have a problem..
wat you think..
Oh and i was talking to a college professor here about the java controled system he think its a good idea as do i but he brough to my attention that it might be a little over complicated.. i only saw this morning ur mail to me .. so ill give him a look at that too see wat he thinks..
Lanmasterd
Hi Feynman: You have the right idea, stay close to Stan Meyers invention. If the pulse speed has to be stepped up it can be done with the 74G08. I have been on the internet (ebay) and trying to find this ic chip is murder with my knowledge of the computer. ebay finds everything that has 14 pins but my item. I'll get it sooner or later. This just isn't like repairing large air conditioning systems.
Later on I am going to try to show the electronic diagram if I don't get in trouble trying to attach it to our forum. The last time I tried to do this they gave me a new password.
Hi again Feynman: I have only one problem with the alternator idea. I have only a ONE WIRE OUT alternator and it connects directly to the battery. (ONE WIRE ALTERNATOR) It produces 139 amps.for my classic chevy.( 454 V8 engine, w/ss valves,and chromoly rings. built for Hydrogen) It would be better to build a circuit. Taking a alternator apart and putting it back together (I have done it) is no ease job. Please think about it.
Hey lads little update..
Work so far
USB control
Control chip
12v to 5v Supply {smoothed and regulated}
And yes its a 2x16 LCD display Header. with serial to paralell register.. any 2x16 lcd will work but ill enclude my recommended later..
And still plenty of room for more.
There are 3 more modules i have to add to the board yet.. well therse 4 but one is just using power from the board ...
check it out. tell me wat u think
Designed on Eagle Cad Pro
and programming will be AVR studio .. eventually..
Lanmasterd
Hey guys
@lanmasterd
You are right; there is an output enable pin (pin 7) of LTC6904. Sorry I did not notice this before! As for the alternator, I do not understand this part... I didn't say alternator, I said ignition coil... you could replace this with any high voltage transformer I suppose. I'm sorry, I don't understand the electrolysis part very well. My job is done once the square wave gets amplified. ;)
Regarding the Java control program, we actually already have a lot of work done on it. It will not be overly complicated, because we already have the software as well as 3 different microcontroller setups which are supported (myself, GK, and Jon). Please private message me your e-mail and I will send you the latest version of the protocol. It is ASCII based.
Here is a picture of the Java control program
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreeenergygroup.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F04%2Fclient_april15_08.png&hash=1736f50477c37d72888f2dc95c224fc0aedf361f)
Your latest setup looks good!
@lefferdink
Which chip were you trying to find? I buy extras of all chips, maybe I can help you.
Hi Feynman:
My computer just flopped. I was trying to buy : LM741 and a TC4420CPA but I had better wait. The circuits that you guys are working on looks good and is better than ever. One question: will we have to have a laptop and oscilloscope to dial this system in?
thats a good question lefferdink:) thanks for asking it
the Simple answer is NO . the point of publishing my work is to allow all of us and our expertize to cut out tuning needs.. the system will have maybe two main settings. one setting for conditioning the cells.. the second for running the system at its full potential....
an oscilloscope would be handy if u wanna see the working of the design.. but not needed..
Hard luck too on the Flopped pc. Wat killed it?
Lanmasterd
Hi Lanmasterd:
The hard drive took a dive; so I hooked up the 80 gig that was sitting around.
Agreed, I don't think you will need an oscilloscope if the microcontroller setup is working,
But oscilloscope helps with troubleshooting. ;) There are cheap ones on ebay if you look hard enough.
Hey lads still working on stuff dont worry .. ive been sick and in bed most of the last week with not my mind for my laptop.. and my pcb exposure unit broke..pain and rage thing lol.. but im gonna have to rebuild my pcb unit .. anyway im on anti biotics for another 7 days i cant drive and my missus is making me rest as much as possible,, but im perfecting my design digitally.. ..
Question should we maybe add ground planes where ever possible to reduce the amount of pcb we would have to etch.. just a thought ill do up two versions a no plane and one with a plane...
lanmasterd
Hope you get better Lanmasterd,
I'm on the antibionics also, had a abscessed tooth and root canal this week.
Fun fun...
OK, Mo Later...
Hi Feynman: I joined the image shack, tried to post the image but kept loosing overunity. I clicked the control c key as you said and then the control v but lost image shack. I'm using a double window to boot.
Have also tried to post in this forum and am finding that my image is too large, OVER 50k. This does not sound right. I know that I can send it directly to your personal e-mail, but that may compromise you security.
Sincerely
lefferdink
Hi Lanmasterd:
Can you please send the schematic that I sent you to this forum. This way everyone can check it out.
hey lads
hey lefferdink
here is the images u needed..the one u sent me..
im back to work today ive had a nice week off with being sick and all.. so ill be back on track with doing some of my design work..
Ive changed my pcb exposer to an Led driven one.. 300 Led 5mm ones with 370nm 7000mcd .. so its gonna be stronger then my old tube ones.
anyway have to go..work time..
Lanmasterd
Hi Feynman: This is the schematic that I was talking about; might be something to look at. Pretty sure that you guys have all of the bases covered.
Hi Lanmasterd: Thank you for putting this schematic up on the forum, I had too much trouble trying and my eyes were seeing double.
You were mentioning small refrigeration and the smallest i've seen is those little hotel refrigerators around 1/16 ton. The smallest I have repaired is 1/5 ton. The largest is 160 tons of air conditioning and -40? x 40 ton drive in.
If anyone wants any of those 14 pin surface chips I'll pass them out free just as long as I get the postage.
thanks again.
back from the dead lads..
Just about well again.. I have had loads of time to work on things and do a few tests.... this is just a heads up for the post later today with the jucie details and results so far.. some pics included..
Hope i find everyone else well..
Lets not loose sight of the goals yeah
Lanmasterd
Hi everyone and glad someone is getting well. Hope everyone is getting well.
I have a small question about the design components, namely the capacitors. We won't be using any Bipolar caps will we?
Have acquired a digi-key, Allied catalogue and digital soldering iron. At what temp should I be using and type of heat sink?
I use a cheap radio shack soldering iron, haha. It has no temp control. I really should get a new one... One way to tell is use the lowest temp that melts the solder you are using, where things are still easy to work with.
Btw the digikey catalog is great! ;)
Email from Lefferdink:
Hi z.monkey.
Our forum seems to be a little dead. I wonder if you can make two pcb's that lanmasterd posted on this forum for me. I have the full book on the Hydrostar system(HHO production). If you make the boards I' ll pay for them greatfully & humbly in american money of course. I am a person of action and sitting and waiting is not for me. I have purchased all of the parts I need to start on the two boards, and then some.
What kind of device do you used in order to make these boards? How much more education is needed?
If you want a copy of the book, I believe that I can e-mail it to you with no strings attached. The hydrostar generator I will not use.
Howdy Lefferdink:
What you need is protoboard. This way you can get started as soon as you get the
material. Look in your Mouser catalog on page 2108. Find the Vectorboard Circbord
Printed Circuit Prototyping Boards. There are a wide variety of boards to choose
from. I have built a bizillion circuits using these boards. Now these are protoboard
PCBs as opposed to specific design PCBs. Protoboards are general purpose where
the specific design PCBs only support one circuit. It is not cost effective to design
a specific design PCB when you are prototyping. It is feasible and you can do it, but
it is very expensive. PCB designers only make specific design PCBs when we are going
to build lots of copies, go into production and sell lots of boards. You can get
protoboards anywhere Mouser, Digikey, Allied, Radio Hut.
When you get a protoboard you need to think about your circuit before you start
soldering down parts. You want to layout the parts in a manner which minimizes long
wires. A lot of times you don't even need extra wires to connect components. You
can use resistor and capacitor leads that are longer than needed. Remember to keep
your circuits neat and orderly. The protoboard can be cut easily and made into any
shape to fit any enclosure. This is definitely a skill and will take practice, so if your
first board isn't very pretty that is OK. The next one will be better. After you have
built a bizillion, like me, you will be a pro and someone else will be asking you questions.
When a Circuit Board Designer goes to actually design a PCB they use Printed Circuit
Board Design Software like OrCAD Layout, or Pads Power PCB. These are expensive
pieces of CAD (Computer Aided Design) software specifically designed for the design
of printed circuit boards. These tools produce files called gerbers which are pictures of
each layer of the board. The gerber files are sent to a PCB fabricator where the
gerbers are fed into a CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing) machine which actually
fabricates the PCBs with a complex process of photolithography, microdrilling,
chemical etching, and CAM machining. The PCB designer can be specialized in printed
circuit boards specifically, but it helps to have a background in electronics and/or
manufacturing. I am multitalented being an Electrical and Electronic Engineer with
a large amount of experience in manufacturing. I am also a software engineer with
experience in 5 languages. Then, also, I recently achieved the title of CID+, which is
Advanced Certified Interconnect Designer, meaning I am a master at printed circuit
board design.
The circuits that Lanmasterd posted in the forum are pretty straightforward and you
shouldn't have any trouble building them on a protoboard. When dealing with timers
I suggest that you get an oscilloscope to look at the signals that you are producing.
Troubleshooting an oscillating circuit without an oscilloscope can be difficult. You can
post any questions that you have on the forum, I will keep an eye on it. This way
other people can see the pitfalls of circuit design.
OK, Mo Later...
Hi Guys:
ZMonkey I have an oscilloscope & bought it 5 or 7 years ago and it just sat and now I don't know where the instructions are. It is an Elenco S-3000 A. It is new and not used. Some guy at American Legion took a class ( home study) and never followed up. Gave him $80 or $100 for it and then I moved to AZ 5 years later. If I blow it up, I blow it up. Working on a circuit just for the fun of it and learning how to solder all over again. It's the one I had Lanmastered post.
Did anyone see pwmpower.com's generator? He is using brute force straight from the battery and a third center tube in the nest (27 tubes I count). I want to use more than that for mine, and is it ever getting so expensive for this experiment.
Gasoline just went up again $3.69 here in AZ, the cheap stuff.
Howdy Y'all,
Lefferdink did you get a new scope, or are you using the Elenco. How is the prototyping going? I have been busy installing a Radiant Barrier on my house, so I haven't had much time to play with the Soft Particle Reactor lately. I did have a thought about the HHO driver circuit. After seeing the "singing bowl" thread I thought that the HHO driver needs to be resonant, and melodic. OK, what I mean here is the water will crack easier if the driver is producing sine wave forms rather that square wave forms. In music there is a term called dissonance. Dissonance is produced by producing two tones that do not have the same harmonics. The effect is the bad sounding chord. Two tones that have the same harmonics produce a pleasant sounding chord. I am theorizing that the dissonant chord has disruptive properties. These disruptive properties could potentially be used to "crack" water. By exposing the water to an electromagnetic dissonant chord produced by an HHO driver we could literally shake the water molecules apart with the dissonance. Rather than using brute force, we are going to out think the water molecule and find the right combination of frequencies that will produce the right dissonant chord which will crack the water.
OK, Mo Later...
Blessed Be Brothers...
Hi!
I yet have to reread the whole posting in this topic, but I wanted to tell all you guys that you got in me another guy jumping in :) I am building my HHO Generator to place in my car, and I will create a PWM circuit, (I think I feel bold enough ;) to do it).
I am a self tought electronics buff, I do play with microprocessors (pics), digital data transmision (wireless), SSR (I think that solid state relays can be used to create the DC pulses ?), etc.
I also bought an ELM323 interfase chip to also connect my "thingy" into the OBDII of the car, so I can actually show real time info on gas usage / Mileage, and also I would like to "play" with the oxygen sensors, as I am suspecting that HHO gas into the air intake is not the only thing to accomplish but also you need to lie the ECU (onboard computer that manages the whole motor combustion orchestra), that it needs less gas.
Anyway, Maybe things I typed are already addressed, but I had a chance to read the post on the fly. Later today I will post again. Now I am gone to buy the Stainless steel plates necessary to start playing around :)
Regards,
Enrique
Howdy Y'all
Didn't really plan to turn the HHO into a business, engineering is my business, HHO might be a product. I pulled the old mower out of the shed and it managed to start after setting for 6 years. Now all we have to do is modify it to run with HHO. We haven't decided which system to use yet. I am not one to just copy something. I want to make something unique, and industrial grade. You can make inductors, check out these links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor
http://www.coilcraft.com/
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4255.0.html
I have been building transformers and inductors for years. You see the giant coil on the SPR. There are 7 internal coils and the secondary is the big one on the outside. It is 4.5 inches in diameter, 8.25 inches long, has around 680 windings, and the inductance is 2.8 Henrys. There is only one layer of windings. You could make one that is a lot more compact by using a solid core instead of a tube, and making more layers of windings. A good way to make a custom shaped slug is to mix iron filings and epoxy, then pour that into a mold and then you have a custom ferrite to wind the wire on. When the epoxy is cures remove the mold and wrap the windings directly on to the slug. If you want to make easy inductors you can use nails, or bolts. Making the basic inductors is fairly easy. But is does get complicated when you want to do specialized things, like radio coils, or microwave, but for power and audio frequencies the coils are pretty simple. Look at the coils on the Bicycle Wheel Alternator.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4135.0.html
These are 1/2 inch bolts, some fender washers, a piece of 1/2 inside diameter iron tubing, a lock washer and a nut. Take the bolt, slip on a fender washer, then the iron tube, then another fender washer, then the lock washer and a nut. Tighten that up and you have an iron spool. I put the threaded end of the bolt in a cordless drill chuck so I can spin the spool with little effort. Secure a piece of wire onto the spool with some electrical tape. Take the spool of wire an support through its center hole so that it is free to move. Slowly turn on the drill and allow the wire to wind on to the iron spool you made. It takes some practice to make a nice neat coil but it is worth it. A neat coil will have a better Q than a sloppy mess of a coil. Better Q means more inductance.
If you are building the D14 that I am thinking of your can probably use a EI core step down transformer that you can get at Radio Hut. I think that Meyers had made his own toroidal core transformer.
In order for the tubes in the electrolyzer to work reliably you can't use water that has minerals in it. I recommend using distilled water, or deionized water (pure water) in the electrolyzer. If the water has particulates in it they will build up on the electrodes and need frequent cleaning. To clean the tubular electrodes you can use a bottle brush, but this requires frequent disassembly of the electrolyzer. I was thinking that a recirculator could be used to filter the water in the electrolyzer chamber. There is a drain at the bottom of the tank. The drain goes to a filter, then to a pump, and the output of the pump goes back into the electrolyzer tank. In close proximity to the electrolyzer element there is a submersible ultrasonic transducer which would clean the electrodes using sound waves continuously. The crud that is shaken off the electrodes would travel through the drain and get stuck in the filter. You would have to change the filter every once in a while.
Blessed Be Brothers...
Hey all!
in this post http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4805.0.html we came up with the idea of using a computer sound card output. so far i have a signal generator generating a square wave at whatever frequency i want. i can hear the signal. my problem is how do i apply that signal to my electrode terminals. i'm not very educated in these electronics since i'm only a very early college student, but learning quick. maybe someone could give me some insight and a solution to my problem. connecting the positive to one terminal and the negative to another terminal has no effect on the water. I've tried to read the voltage of the signal, but get nothing.
Hi Markolonius!
It might happen that your sound card (onboard or not) is more intelligent than that!
It is usual nowadays to find audio cards that allow you to plug microphone, earphone, or amplifier in ANY of its plugs, as it has the necessary intelligence to detect WHAT you are plugging into WHICH socket, due to it?s different resisting / impedance, whatever.
If you have one of such cards, with autosensing, maybe the electrodes do not fit in any on the preopogrammed sensing parameters, and thus the sound card configures it as nothing / microphone, whatever.
Regards,
Enrique
Howdy Markolonius,
You can use a power amplifier, like a car audio booster, to take the audio output from the computer and amplify it to drive and electrolyzer. Hook up the audio output from the computer to the audio input on the amplifier. You will need a decent 12 volt power supply to power the amplifier. Take the output terminals on the amplifier and hook them up to the electrolyzer, like the electrolyzer is a speaker. This will allow you to experiment with different sounds on the electrolyzer. Make sure that your power amplifier has overdrive protection (fuse, circuit breaker, etc.) so you don't melt anything.
If you are feeling really adventurous make your own amplifier, I do. I have a theory that a dissonant chord is going to produce a disruptive wave that will work well to break the molecular bond of the H2O molecule and produce HHO. Try a harmonious chord first, and then a dissonant chord and see what the difference is. Then try multiple frequencies. Then try Heavy Metal Music.
Keep me posted...
Blessed Be Brothers...
Hi z.Monkey !
Hey Markolonius, using an amplifier sounds (ehheh) like a good idea, as it would solve your soundcard problem, you could also monitor its output, and it would create a stronger signal!!
I got my HHO generator right on top of my kitchen table. I will think about doing the sound test myself .....
Hey imagine, the car giving 40% increase in gas efficiency with say, heavy metal, and 30% with classic music ... how interesting ;)
heh
enrique
Hey all!
Thanks for the quick replies! I want to try an amplifier like from a car. I just need to get one lol! I'll let you know how everything goes, once i get it going. i wonder if my sound blaster live sound card has this auto sensing. i'll look it up,, or send out an e-mail to sound blaster and ask em.
i'll let you know if Metallica does a better job of fracturing water than Mozart. or the opposite! haha thanks
Hey all. I have a question. I'm not to educated in electronics ya see... and i need to know how i can measure the voltage and current of the wires leaving my amplifier. right now i'm just trying my guitar amp (i know not the best) which should show something, but doesn't. i connect the electrode terminals on the output of the amp and i get nothing. I also try to read the voltage of the out put of the amp and i get nothing. if someone who knows please explain. someone told me i need to make a loop or something
Howdy Markolonius,
At the least you will need an AC Voltmeter and an AC ammeter. Regular digital voltmeters and ammeters are not going to measure various frequencies or chords, you have to use one note. Also this note needs to be low in frequency because common digital ammeters are designed to measure 60 Hertz, not sound. You can rectify and filter the output and measure it as DC through a 8 ohm load with more accuracy. Or another option is to get a audio signal strength meter (expensive).
If you are using tap water your signal will get shorted out because tap water is conductive. You need to use distilled water or deionized water. These are pure water and are not conductive to low voltages.
Blessed Be Brother...
Hello my friends im very sorry for not being online.. i have put alot into my build and have gotten behind on a few things.. i now have a working version in both my Model place which thanks to my design and micro linux controled brains and solar wing cover it now has a water to gas conversion time of about 3 hours with a wankle motor engine.. i have load to post up so bear with me.. pics videos and close up macro shots for good view on both my motor bike and the plane..
Landmastered cant wait!! sounds great !! Chet
Quote from: Lanmasterd on April 28, 2008, 04:41:08 AM
Ive changed my pcb exposer to an Led driven one.. 300 Led 5mm ones with 370nm 7000mcd .. so its gonna be stronger then my old tube ones.
Lanmasterd
Lanmasterd, where was you able to find UV LED's at a decent price? I didn't do an extensive search, but they seemed kinda pricey from what I've seen so far.
The reason I ask is I think they might have a place inside of the cell to help break down the H20 via photo dissociation and knocking electrons loose from their orbit for electron extraction.
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/physical_science/chemistry/photodissoc_h2o.html (http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/physical_science/chemistry/photodissoc_h2o.html) and http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys301/lectures/spec_lines/Atoms_Nav.swf (http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys301/lectures/spec_lines/Atoms_Nav.swf)
I'm excited to see your videos and pictures!
Thanks,
Mike
Lanmasterd, is everything OK?
I(we) are looking forward to see your pics/videos for some inspiration. I think we are on the same path. I have been having some problems with the circuitry(hv leakage, I think I might be trying for too much high voltage), but still chugging slowly along.
Thanks for what you have given so far,
Mikemongo
Hey guys !
Im planning to build up something familiar.
Atm. im on 3. course and seems that it is very good stuff as "final project" ,as it is a interesting devise to build up.
For start i have created a very modifiable audio signal (square wave) to switch a transistor.
So far im waiting for cell :-[ atm. im not able to start testing. I got no idea what induction element i need... at least i want to find some equations to do math with. I quess it will be also a variable inductor.
But it is for start...
It will not work as a final project right... I need to automatize something ... anything ::)
This year we will learn digital stuff and programming. But i want to kick "start" earlier.
Could someone advice me a "easy to start" controller. What is programming languages are needed to learn necessarily. Ill start with c++.
E-book maybe ..
Ty !
Hi Z Monkey and all: I thought that the site was abandoned and didn't know that a question was asked of me, sorry. I did buy a new oscilloscope (OWON PDS5022S), one WFC 7 tube, 3 PWM's and wound two inductors. The 7 tuber smoked when the amps were put to it by the pwm and this was by accident.
My pressure was at 50 psig at the end of one the tube conditioning sets, opened the drain valve to get rid of the mucky water and opened the top of the WFC and black smoke rolled out of it. I have stopped conditioning the tubes because I will have to buy and wind 5 more inductors. They say this is the proper way to condition the tubes. Working with the two inductors- they get too hot.
I am checking on a 6" Nominal size see thru PVC pipe for the WFC that I'm still working on. If I can get 2' of this pvc I will add another 8 tubes. This will finalize BIG BIRTHA!
I've made self centering end caps for the 1" and 3/4" SS pipes. The wedges will not stay put. This is where resonance or the pipe organ effect will not work on my system unless I'm mistaken. Tried To ring the pipes with the caps on the tubes and they won't ring.
@all,
For anyone who is interrested, controller wise, I recently bougth this:
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2615&dDocName=en535536
80MHZ, 32 bit, usb, etc. 35 euro's
Now I have to learn C, :)
Spider
@all,
Here is another nice to know feature of this board. On the back is a connector which gives you access to all the processor pins. The matching connector is also available at digikey.
The pins are really small, but if you are up to the challenge you can slap this onto any pcb.
There is also a guy on the net who makes adapters like in the second pic.
http://www.eflightworks.net/
Spider.
Hi to everyone:
Has anyone tried to condition the stainless steel tubes (setup like Stan Meyers used)with rain water?
I get no brown or red gunk.