Hello to all battery researchers:
A group of people are working on the Crystal Battery based on John Hutchison.
I didn't want to confuse there thread with my own crystal battery research, because I am using different ingredients.
Instead of using Rochelle Salt, my cell uses monoammonium phosphate (MAP)
Which is a common fertilizer sold as MAP or 11-52-0.
Another name for it is ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP).
I will just refer to it as MAP. That's an easy name to remember, the MAP to endless energy.
It is a piezoelectric crystal material which has some very interesting properties, check out this link:
http://www.fsu.com/pages/2007/10/19/adp.html
And this stuff is dirt cheap. The local Co-op sells it for about $850 / tonn.
I bought 100 pounds of it for $55. You can make a lot of cells with 100 pounds of crystals.
Or you can make your own by adding Phosphoric Acid to Ammonia until it turns slightly acidic.
It has no known toxic effects, you can almost eat the stuff, but that isn't recommended.
It is also used for powder fire extinguishers, so that tells you how safe it is around heat.
It also has a much higher melting point then Rochell Salt, which may come in handy down the road.
Melts at about twice the boiling point of water.
This stuff looks really promising. I placed the MAP into a coffee filter and tied it off.
I then place the filter full of MAP into a pot of water and warm it up stirring the bundle around.
I then poured the solution onto a Stainless Steel pie plate and dried it quickly so a thin layer of crystal formed in the plate.
When I place a piece of Aluminum foil on top the the crystal deposit I get over 700mV.
I connected a 100k resistor to it and still got over 700mV. out of it.
This looks promising. I hope some others will join me in this new adventure.
By the way "HWL Cell" stands for "Harold Walter Lehmann's Cell" since I started this project.
Till Later Harold.
Harold/AbbaRue,
although it is great that you've started your own cell line,
why don't you just keep it in the crystal cell thread?
There's quite a few other variations that don't use the
Rochelle salts either, and they're in that thread still...?
Well enough whining, on the subject of your MAP idea:
interesting :D
What is the amperage you get with and without the resistor in place?
And you're still going for the SS->Alumina idea, aren't you? ;)
Well it's worth a try. :)
Keep up the good work. ;D
Hello Harold
Very good to reed,that the crystal battery is developed in pultiple ways.
For me as a reader it is now easy to organice between the topics,since there
is a seperated MAP based battery.
helmut
Quote from: AbbaRue on April 17, 2008, 01:39:10 AM
This stuff looks really promising. I placed the MAP into a coffee filter and tied it off.
I then place the filter full of MAP into a pot of water and warm it up stirring the bundle around.
I then poured the solution onto a Stainless Steel pie plate and dried it quickly so a thin layer of crystal formed in the plate.
When I place a piece of Aluminum foil on top the the crystal deposit I get over 700mV.
I connected a 100k resistor to it and still got over 700mV. out of it.
This looks promising. I hope some others will join me in this new adventure.
By the way "HWL Cell" stands for "Harold Walter Lehmann's Cell" since I started this project.
Till Later Harold.
Harold
Just to make sure I understand this .
You desolve some Map in water ....... then you say you dry it rapidly on stainless steel...... that could mean boiling off the water ...
I am guessing that the crystal layer is just a few thousands thick.
have you tried getting a similar affect by melting it ?
I would think that the aluminum layer would have much better electrical connection if it was put in place while the Map was still melted.
gary
I dried it using a convection oven, which is designed to cook food using hot air.
I set the oven at 300 deg. F. and ran it until most of the water was gone.
This formed a thin layer of crystal, then I left it to air dry the rest of the way.
I tried drying it completely but the crystal formed bubbles which I didn't want.
The crystal layer is about 1mm to 2mm thick.
I tried heating the crystals, not a good idea, the whole room smelled of Phosphorus,
and the crystal turned to a gummy mess thats hard to get off.
Heating to the curry temperature should be fine but don't try melting the stuff.
I'm still working on a better way to make cells out of this stuff.
I was thinking of getting some nice white quartz sand and using it for spacers between the plates.
Mix it up together in a little water and placing it between plates, then letting it dry.
My test cell is the SS plate with a 6cm x 4cm piece of Aluminum foil laying across the crystals.
I weighed the foil down with pennies, a simple test cell until I make some better cells.
Measurements:
Open circuit 800mV keeps creeping up had it up over 900mV.
100k resistor 720mV.
10k resistor 400mV kept steady over night
1k resistor 75mV
100 ohm resistor 32mV pressing on the pennies got it up to 40mV
After removing the 100 ohm resistor the cell jumped up to over 500mV.
And then continued climbing until it reached 800mV after about 5 minutes.
The main problem is the aluminum foil isn't keeping a good connection.
Some kind of conductive powder would be much better.
I'm still thinking up a better solution to this.
I'm considering coins covered with crystal stacked on each other to increase the voltage.
One point I want to make is I haven't applied any voltage to the cell to polarize it.
Doing so could get much better results, I just got the MAP a few days ago and am still learning about it.
Quote from: AbbaRue on April 17, 2008, 02:07:43 PM
I dried it using a convection oven, which is designed to cook food using hot air.
I set the oven at 300 deg. F. and ran it until most of the water was gone.
This formed a thin layer of crystal, then I left it to air dry the rest of the way.
I tried drying it completely but the crystal formed bubbles which I didn't want.
The crystal layer is about 1mm to 2mm thick.
I tried heating the crystals, not a good idea, the whole room smelled of Phosphorus,
and the crystal turned to a gummy mess thats hard to get off.
Heating to the curry temperature should be fine but don't try melting the stuff.
I'm still working on a better way to make cells out of this stuff.
I was thinking of getting some nice white quartz sand and using it for spacers between the plates.
Mix it up together in a little water and placing it between plates, then letting it dry.
My test cell is the SS plate with a 6cm x 4cm piece of Aluminum foil laying across the crystals.
I weighed the foil down with pennies, a simple test cell until I make some better cells.
Measurements:
Open circuit 800mV keeps creeping up had it up over 900mV.
100k resistor 720mV.
10k resistor 400mV kept steady over night
1k resistor 75mV
100 ohm resistor 32mV pressing on the pennies got it up to 40mV
After removing the 100 ohm resistor the cell jumped up to over 500mV.
And then continued climbing until it reached 800mV after about 5 minutes.
The main problem is the aluminum foil isn't keeping a good connection.
Some kind of conductive powder would be much better.
I'm still thinking up a better solution to this.
I'm considering coins covered with crystal stacked on each other to increase the voltage.
One point I want to make is I haven't applied any voltage to the cell to polarize it.
Doing so could get much better results, I just got the MAP a few days ago and am still learning about it.
Thanks for explaining a little more Harold
It sounds interesting .......and simple enough for a non chemist to do .
Unfortunantly I am between jobs right now and I have about 100 things I want to try for every dollar I have available to try them .
Personaly I think I would go for the sticky mess :)
batterys are supposed to be messy arn't they?
A sticky mess between 2 dissimilar metals ......apply a voltage and let it cool down .......
It almost has to work . :)
gary
If the sticky cell worked ........ assuming that it gets liquid enough ......what about potting a Stubblfield earth battery in it ?
It might be like a battery within a battery
gary
for a spacer possibly you could use a piece of paper towel, TP, blotter paper, something porous. use a paper punch (or your 45 cal dirty harry) and perforate it, lay it on the foil. then just pour the solution on it. just a thought - Duane
Quote from: mdmiller on April 18, 2008, 09:13:20 AM
for a spacer possibly you could use a piece of paper towel, TP, blotter paper, something porous. use a paper punch (or your 45 cal dirty harry) and perforate it, lay it on the foil. then just pour the solution on it. just a thought - Duane
Duane
I am assuming you are talking about potting the earth battery in Map
I was thinking more on the lines of taking a finiched earth battery and finding a container that it fits into nicely
Then desolving some Map in water .........putting the whole thing in the oven ........and keeping the coil covered with Map until enough water desolves so that the whole thing starts to get solid .
If it doesn't work ..........THEN ........it is time to get dirty harry
gary
Quote from: resonanceman on April 18, 2008, 10:52:05 AM
Quote from: mdmiller on April 18, 2008, 09:13:20 AM
for a spacer possibly you could use a piece of paper towel, TP, blotter paper, something porous. use a paper punch (or your 45 cal dirty harry) and perforate it, lay it on the foil. then just pour the solution on it. just a thought - Duane
Duane
I am assuming you are talking about potting the earth battery in Map
I was thinking more on the lines of taking a finiched earth battery and finding a container that it fits into nicely
Then desolving some Map in water .........putting the whole thing in the oven ........and keeping the coil covered with Map until enough water desolves so that the whole thing starts to get solid .
If it doesn't work ..........THEN ........it is time to get dirty harry
gary
I was referring to Harold's problem with maintaining foil spacing. A piece of organic like absorbant paper would provide accurate spacing. The earth battery is interesting. That makes me think of the tesla bifilial. Since MAP seems to have such a high dielectric, I'm curious what would happen if it was compounded like plates in a car battery. For example, the layers would be (in cross section for assembly) as follows:
================ MAP saturated TP or whatever
=============O foil with a copper electrode attached along the edge
============= MAP saturated TP or whatever
============= foil
The foil pieces might be say 2-3" wide and 12" long or longer, same with the MAP saturated spacer. The MAP saturated spacer might want to be a little wider/longer to prevent any accidental foil shorts. The foil with the electrode might be a little longer to start the wrap on the electode.
Roll it up in a spiral like a jelly roll, be sure the foil and attached electrode didn't touch the other foil. Heat/dry to crystalize. Measure the potential from the electrode to the outer foil. Is there any accumulation of potential?? This might be a test relevant to other piezo materials. - Duane
one PS:, instead of the oven, try puting the wet crystal honey material in the refrigerator to initially form the crystals. then into a just-warm oven to finish the dry. At least with RS, the sooper-cooled honey crystalized quickly in the fridge when exposed to a magnetic field.
Thanks for the ideas mdmiller
I will try the refrigerator.
Interesting, I was going to suggest the earth battery people try some map. around there earth batteries.
I've been planing to try some earth batteries as well this summer.
So far I'm getting the highest voltages from the thinest layers.
Maybe this is a key for these cells, using large area thin layers.
Could have something to do with frequency, I understand the thiner a crystal is
the higher the frequency it oscillates at, so very thin layers may even pick up high frequency radio waves.
Coating something like sand with a thin layer may get interesting effects.
Quote from: AbbaRue on April 18, 2008, 02:17:24 PM
Thanks for the ideas mdmiller
I will try the refrigerator.
Interesting, I was going to suggest the earth battery people try some map. around there earth batteries.
I've been planing to try some earth batteries as well this summer.
So far I'm getting the highest voltages from the thinest layers.
Maybe this is a key for these cells, using large area thin layers.
Could have something to do with frequency, I understand the thiner a crystal is
the higher the frequency it oscillates at, so very thin layers may even pick up high frequency radio waves.
Coating something like sand with a thin layer may get interesting effects.
Harold
It is interesting that you are getting higher voltages from thinner layers.
If you are right and it has something to do with frequency ......then the voltage is probably not galvanomic
My focus with the earth batterys is mostly on their non galvanomic output
In my opinion if it is a galvanomic prosess it is just a battery ,,,,,even if it lasts many years .
If it is non galvanomic ........then it is true overunity ......and may last a very long time .
gary
I have been looking for a table of curie temperatures for the various piezoelectric materials,
but have not been able to locate one. I need to know what it is for MAP.
I found melting the stuff causes it to break down releasing phosphorus into the air.
It melts at about 200 deg C, so it should be safe to heat to it's curie temp.
Quote from: AbbaRue on April 18, 2008, 11:37:26 PM
I have been looking for a table of curie temperatures for the various piezoelectric materials,
but have not been able to locate one. I need to know what it is for MAP.
I found melting the stuff causes it to break down releasing phosphorus into the air.
It melts at about 200 deg C, so it should be safe to heat to it's curie temp.
AbbaRue
Have you tried drying it with out heat ?
I read on one site that Map is one of the easiest and safest things you can grow crystals with .
Is Map something that is just not sold in small quantities ?
I have found places that sell it by the pallet ........but nothing small
gary
I guess at the co-op a farmer just drives up with a spreader and fills it up, gets weighed and goes and does his field.
I just called and asked if they could bag some for me so they did. I payed $55 for 100 pounds but they offered me
50 pounds for $30. Considering the cost of other things these days I thought that was very reasonable.
I've seen pizza for more than $30.
Of coarse it's very dirty, the crystals are a coffee brown colour. If you want nice clear crystals you could always make your own.
The recipe says to add phosphoric acid to ammonia until the solution turns acidic.
I know phosphoric acid used to be sold in hardware stores for metal cleaner.
And ammonia can be found in most grocery stores for cleaner.
That way you could make smaller amounts.