Basic theoretics make me think this mechanical contraption should work. There are still minor details like how the air release valve would work? I?m sure the solution wouldn?t be that difficult to come up with. I am just focusing on an idea for review. I?ve been thinking about mechanical electrical devices for some time and this one sorta just popped into my head this morning.
So read this and tell me WHY it wouldn't work?
Self Inflating Buoyancy Air Piston (SIBAP)
1) The air bag will push air through a small diameter tube forced by the weight attached to the bag
2) The air will ?fill? the hollow piston in the water. The piston will stay bound to its location held by magnets calculated to release upon so much buoyant force.
3) Upon threshold level, the Piston (air filled tube) will rise to the surface pulling the weight and filling the air bag once again.
4) Once the tube hits the surface, there is a air release valve that will rapidly release the air in the tube and lose its buoyancy.
The piston (tube) is guided by rails so it falls back towards the magnets so it can again be secured.
*all valves are those one way fish tank valves.
The next step is finding out.. Why wouldn?t this work, it?s stupidly simple and I can?t be the first to come up with this one. Unless the addition of the magnets added to a real solution ;D
NOTE: This diagram below is NOT to scale, the bouyancy chamber would obviously be much longer and the air tubes much skinnier. I don't know how much air would be needed to lift the weight, but the basic concept is here for review.
You have to press the air into their against the hydrostatic water pressure
at the bottom of the device.
That takes a lot of air pressure to do.
Just try it.
Take a long plastic hose and try to push (blow) air with your mouth through it to around 1 Meter deepth water.
You will see, how hard you have to blow into the hose to get the air down under there and come
off bubbling from the lower ending of the hose inside the water...
that would entirely depend on the inner diameter of the air line. The air line isn't needed to be very wide, actually the smaller the better.
I suppose a couple things need to be determined
1) The air intake force (based on the weight) would need to displace enough air to lift itself.
2) The weight needs to be heavy enough to push air through the tube, however, the tube can be fairly small.
So really, the primary concern would be whether or not the weight can be lifted to a height where, when released, could displace enough air back down the tube. As long as enough cubic air was forced into the tube to lift the weight, what would stop the process from continuing?
From your drawing, the weight seems to be connected to the bottom of the submerged air tank. If that is the case, wont your weight, as it presses down on the air, continue to pull on that rope/cord and further sink/lower the tank that it is connected to?
Just my thoughts....
No, it works in the opposite direction.
When the airtank falls then the weight has no leverage to keep it up. The weight will fall and push air into the submerged airtank. When this is happening, there is slack on the line.
Once the airtank fills to a certain bouyancy it will pull away from the magnets holding it in place (the bouyancy is greater than the pull of the field) and rise to the top lifting the weight with it.
Once the tank hits the surface or a certain area it is deflated, perhaps simply by the connecting line pulling open a valve at the top. Once it looses air again it drops to the bottom, again giving slack on the line where the weight drops again, repeating the cycle.
Hi,
just
try to calculate from these formulars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatics#Hydrostatic_pressure
how much air pressure you need to overcome the hydrostatic water pressure,
e.g. in 10 Meter deepth of water.
Then compare it with the weight generation of air pressure.
I guess the buoyancy force is always smaller than the gravity force to
generate the needed air pressure to overcome the
hydrostatic water pressure.
Just do a few examples and post the calculations.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: BasementExperiments on May 09, 2008, 10:30:55 AM
that would entirely depend on the inner diameter of the air line. The air line isn't needed to be very wide, actually the smaller the better.
No,
actually not.
This is the hydrostatic paradoxon..
It does not depend on the diameter size of the hose,
it does only depend on the height (or deepness in water ) of the hose...
unfortunately....
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 09, 2008, 05:26:30 PM
Quote from: BasementExperiments on May 09, 2008, 10:30:55 AM
that would entirely depend on the inner diameter of the air line. The air line isn't needed to be very wide, actually the smaller the better.
No,
actually not.
This is the hydrostatic paradoxon..
It does not depend on the diameter size of the hose,
it does only depend on the height (or deepness in water ) of the hose...
unfortunately....
I'm not sure this is entirely true as there is air friction that may be more noticable in a smaller hose(say 1/4 inch) compared to a hose that is 1 inch. just try blowing thru a piece of automotive brake line then thru a garden hose. big difference.
P.S. See it this way:
If you open the valve at the bottom of the air valve going into the
water, the water pressure is so strong, it wants to move the water there into the air container and
as high as the other water is in the water container.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote
Quote
No,
actually not.
This is the hydrostatic paradoxon..
It does not depend on the diameter size of the hose,
it does only depend on the height (or deepness in water ) of the hose...
unfortunately....
I'm not sure this is entirely true as there is air friction that may be more noticable in a smaller hose(say 1/4 inch) compared to a hose that is 1 inch. just try blowing thru a piece of automotive brake line then thru a garden hose. big difference.
Well, the volumes or air transported are different, but the air pressure you need to do it are equal !
Just blow and hold the pressure, so that the water goes one 1 meter below
surface and then hold the water there in the tubes...
You would need the same pressure on both different hose or tube diameter sizes
to hold the water there 1 Meter below the surface.
IMO Stefan's absolutely right - if the end of the air hose has a flap valve of some sort the water pressure will hold it closed so no water leaks into the hose - in order to open the valve to let air bubble up into the piston you have to provide enough force [pressure] to open the flap valve - the deeper the valve the greater the hydrostatic pressure your weight needs to overcome.
Perhaps you could think about using a flexible hose that went up inside the hollow piston to the top & traveled with the piston up & down ?
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 09, 2008, 05:45:08 PM
Quote
Quote
No,
actually not.
This is the hydrostatic paradoxon..
It does not depend on the diameter size of the hose,
it does only depend on the height (or deepness in water ) of the hose...
unfortunately....
I'm not sure this is entirely true as there is air friction that may be more noticable in a smaller hose(say 1/4 inch) compared to a hose that is 1 inch. just try blowing thru a piece of automotive brake line then thru a garden hose. big difference.
Well, the volumes or air transported are different, but the air pressure you need to do it are equal !
Just blow and hold the pressure, so that the water goes one 1 meter below
surface and then hold the water there in the tubes...
You would need the same pressure on both different hose or tube diameter sizes
to hold the water there 1 Meter below the surface.
I totally agree, the pressure after stabilizing would be exactly the same, but in a system like this where speed is critical, the pressure build up with a small line would be considerable.
All very good and valuable points to consider. I'm going to test a few things this weekend to see how possible this really is.
Would it help if the air was helium? Say, for example this contraption was placed inside an airsealed container, recycling the same helium over and over.
Also, as far as SPEED being critical, I dont see it as being a primary step initially. Getting something to move perpetually is the first important step. IF it is possible then testing friction on the machine would be part two. Although in the end it is important, I'm not worried about the energy usage at this time.
When I complete som testing I will get back to this thread.
Yes, please do a few test, so you can see, how much pressure you need
for different hose diameters to press air e.g. 1 Meter under water through the hose.
Maybe it could be good to use very small needle type hoses and press the air through it in
pulses, like letting a weight fall onto the airbulg connected to this hose...
Many thanks.
Tried to rig up a foot pump today, not much luck so far. The water was just under a meter deep (big plastic garbage bin)
At first I just tried a garbage bag with a tube, I had to squeeze the bad to hard that it stretched and blew a small hole, I wasn't able to create enough pressure with a garbage bag.
I did test a 4 liter bottle, it was able to float a 5lb weight. 15lbs and it sunk, so somewhere around... 7-8 lbs I'd say it would start to sink, but not offical..
Is it easy enough to say that if I had a weight and put it on an air tight bag, the pressure would be 5lb?
Doesn't seem right but it SOUNDS right.
I tried blowing down the tube (small fishtank type tube) and was surprised at the pressure needed. However, it wasn't that difficult with a foot pump to do.
sorry, not much real scientific study in the backyard today, I had to do the tests between doing gardening for my wife and taking care of other house chores! :( Tomorrow is another day!
Quote from: BasementExperiments on May 10, 2008, 08:19:37 PM
I tried blowing down the tube (small fishtank type tube) and was surprised at the pressure needed.
Exactly that is the hydrostatic paradoxon...
Keep trying, maybe you will find a way to use less pressure
or use a pulsing system, where only high pressure pulses
must be applied, but the average pressure over one cycle is
still low enough to get this system to overunity...
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.