I have been thinking about something quite a lot lately...
In most of the HHO videos I see on the internet, I see a load of people that think they know it all, saying a load of debunking stuff mostly rambling on about "you need more energy in than you will get back out !".
When are these people going to realise that us HHO nutters are not actually claiming overunity ? It is just another form of renewable energy.
The fact is, a Diesel engine requires a lot of energy to compress the air in the chamber to get up to ignition temperature, and then on top of that, the fuel pump must require even more pressure to spray the Deisel into that already heavily pressurised cylinder. But after all that, the Diesel engine is more efficient than a Petrol engine that does not require as much compression as the Diesel. With me so far ?...
Now as you probably already know... In the case of HHO, the water is introduced to the system as the fuel, then it is split into gas and then compressed. Then after the HHO has done it's duty, it is expelled into the atmosphere as a waste gas, only this time it is renewable as it is turned back into water. Now the bit where I stated "then it is split into gas and then compressed", isn't that's just what Petrol and Diesel engines do, spray the fuel with a pressure system to turn the fuel into a fine mist, then burn it and expell it ?.
Even in my first attempt a HHO production, I was getting quite a lot of gas and experiencing loud bangs from 24 volts at only about 180 mA. I have had people tell me that it is the electricity that makes the bang. Well, what I say to them is... "BULLS**T... You show me a battery that makes a loud bang at the terminals, when it is short circuited !". That one puts a cork in their mouth every time. ;D
So what I want to know is, what makes "the people that know", so sure that water cannot be a fuel ?.
You are right, overunity is the really the objective, In my car, I am working on my unit, for the last 3 days I am thinking about to not use the battery from the car but instead put my unit in the trunk with other battery and just charge this other battery when they are low, so the HHO will be generated with the second battery, I dont really care about overunity at this point, I just want to save more OIL as possible! BTW electricity is way cheaper then using the engine to recharge the battery back :) Also using this system is more powerfull because you dont need to worry about the main battery voltage, so your car will always work like is supposed to do, you can even add 2 batteries instead of one and produce more HHO with more cell and save more gaz.
I will put a solar panel to charge the batteries back while I work at the office! I am still looking at a lot of stuffs to make my unit more easy to update, so I could remove the unit under 30 secs.
Quote from: Bulbz on May 08, 2008, 10:15:58 PM
I have been thinking about something quite a lot lately...
In most of the HHO videos I see on the internet, I see a load of people that think they know it all, saying a load of debunking stuff mostly rambling on about "you need more energy in than you will get back out !".
When are these people going to realise that us HHO nutters are not actually claiming overunity ? It is just another form of renewable energy.
I do not follow. HHO does not exist naturally, like oil. So HHO must be created. It costs more energy to make HHO than can be extracted from it. Therefore, there is no point making it.
With oil, we are not trying to make it. We just use what is already there. That is why it makes sense.
Okay , first of all here I'm not discussing anything OU. This is all conventional.
@shruggedatlas
Quote
I do not follow. HHO does not exist naturally, like oil.
Yes Oil is natural, but gasoline is not. Gasoline is the same as HHO, in the sense that both are 'refined' products which require additional input energy to produce.
QuoteSo HHO must be created. It costs more energy to make HHO than can be extracted from it.
Agreed. In thermodynamic terms, you always have losses. You must 'pay' (for instance) 1000Joules of electrical energy to get 700Joules of HHO.
However, in economic terms, it makes perfect sense. The 'cost' for HHO (in $/Joule) is far less than gasoline (in $/Joule), since the HHO is created by electrical energy (paid for in the kilowatt hour), rather than in gasoline energy (paid for by the gallon).
@shruggedatlas
"I does make sense".
You're right.
I makes dollars and cents.
Quote from: TheOne on May 08, 2008, 11:01:58 PM
You are right, overunity is the really the objective, In my car, I am working on my unit, for the last 3 days I am thinking about to not use the battery from the car but instead put my unit in the trunk with other battery and just charge this other battery when they are low, so the HHO will be generated with the second battery, I dont really care about overunity at this point, I just want to save more OIL as possible! BTW electricity is way cheaper then using the engine to recharge the battery back :) Also using this system is more powerfull because you dont need to worry about the main battery voltage, so your car will always work like is supposed to do, you can even add 2 batteries instead of one and produce more HHO with more cell and save more gaz.
I will put a solar panel to charge the batteries back while I work at the office! I am still looking at a lot of stuffs to make my unit more easy to update, so I could remove the unit under 30 secs.
A good battery would be one that is used on solar systems. I got one from sears rated @ 80 amp hours. I can run my 400 watt security lights for 8 hours no problem then be recharged by my harbor freight solar panel the next day. The only problem is the better ones are rather large and very heavy.
Quote from: Feynman on May 08, 2008, 11:47:25 PM
Okay , first of all here I'm not discussing anything OU. This is all conventional.
@shruggedatlas
Quote
I do not follow. HHO does not exist naturally, like oil.
Yes Oil is natural, but gasoline is not. Gasoline is the same as HHO, in the sense that both are 'refined' products which require additional input energy to produce.
QuoteSo HHO must be created. It costs more energy to make HHO than can be extracted from it.
Agreed. In thermodynamic terms, you always have losses. You must 'pay' (for instance) 1000Joules of electrical energy to get 700Joules of HHO.
However, in economic terms, it makes perfect sense. The 'cost' for HHO (in $/Joule) is far less than gasoline (in $/Joule), since the HHO is created by electrical energy (paid for in the kilowatt hour), rather than in gasoline energy (paid for by the gallon).
OK, but then, why bother with HHO at all? Just have an electric motor with a battery, and use electrical energy to charge that. Seems like making HHO is just a needless extra step.
Quote from: shruggedatlas on May 08, 2008, 11:17:15 PM
I do not follow. HHO does not exist naturally, like oil. So HHO must be created. It costs more energy to make HHO than can be extracted from it. Therefore, there is no point making it.
With oil, we are not trying to make it. We just use what is already there. That is why it makes sense.
I think your missing the whole point. Crude oil straight out of the ground is refined Many times over with additives such as detergents to help keep the engine clean so its not totally natural. My self am not trying to achieve Over unity just with HHO alone. Its going to take multiple things to get overunity. What im trying to achieve is a 11HP lawn mower running off of HHO along side of larger capacity batteries and multiple electrical components. Just the mere fact that you can create a burnable fuel from something we drink, pee, sweat every day should have you on your toes going at this with us. Not saying you should quit because it does not produce more energy then required to make it.
Well, you bother with HHO because you cannot add a battery directly to an automobile, since the engine operates on internal combusion rather than electricity.
Adding HHO can reduce the gasoline consumption by 70% for a minimal cost in electrical energy from the grid.
Dont forget you can add multiple alternators if you have the skills to do so.so a 7-14 cell would be no problem. Even a little 60 HP VW engine would be enough to push 2-3 alternators plus you and the car down the road.
The cost of gasoline versus water. There is no comparison in cost when you equate the value of;
- losing an animal species
- global warming
- pollution
- human sicknesses caused by car exhaust
- wars caused by big oil
- the fact that gasoline is not more then 30% efficient
- the economies of the world are dying under high gas prices
- and to much more to mention.................
When you equate all the above into joules, you are probably at a million to 1 in favor of water.
OK I see. Well, if the economics works out, great.
Quote from: shruggedatlas on May 09, 2008, 12:07:30 PM
OK I see. Well, if the economics works out, great.
There may just be a chance of turning you into a HHO nut after all ;D.
> So what I want to know is, what makes "the people that know",
> so sure that water cannot be a fuel ?
If you ask the wrong question, you will get the wrong answer.
The correct question is:
for how long will I be able to use water as a fuel?
The answer is very simple and logical.
You will be able to use water as fuel:
1- as long as you want, *** IF *** someone invents a method to disassociate water using 5 to 10 times less energy than Faraday *** AND *** this makes it into the market place.
or
2- until no later than 2020-2025, if you and your family have not yet died of starvation.
Contrary to popular layman's belief, the oil producers will turn off their pumps when the joules necessary to pump it, transport it, refine it, distribute it are more than what is obtained by burning it. This is purely a mathematical equation and the oil producers are already well aware when they need to stop pumping. There are no dollars and cents involved in this equation, only joules. All of the energy-easy obtainable oil has already been pumped and burned, from now on energy costs for each barrel will rise. Saudia Arabia can only keep production up by pumping immense quantities of sea water into their fields, and today every barrel that reaches the surface contains 65% sea water and rising. You can imagine that this will not continue for much longer. Globally all oil pumps will have been turned off by roughly 2020-2025 as the joules on both sides of the equation become equal. There will still be lots and lots of oil in the ground, but it is the energy equation that commands. Get it into your head that economics and money do not determine when the oil pumps must be turned off.
With no hydrocarbons, there will be no vehicles running on water, period. What little renewable energy is available will certainly not be wasted on disassociating water. The HHO nuts will finally understand energy in versus energy out, as they starve to death while watching a tractor standing still in the fields.
The sh!t is going to hit the fan LONG before 2020-2025, so now you know why you all have the feeling that things are getting worse, but the average person still does not realize how catastrophic things really are.
Nature will easily solve the problem of no replacement for hydrocarbon energy by starving 8 billion people to death, bringing Earth back to equilibrium. With the exception of Cuba, most soils have been poisoned
with fertilizers and pesticides so Nature will have it easy.
Droughts are becoming common because the planet is heating up and because so many trees are being cut down and sickly from hydrocarbon pollution. An average tree evaporates 13000 liters each day into the atmosphere. At the rate mankind is destroying trees, don't be surprised if rain and water become scarce. Spending a trillion dollars on a war instead of using it to plant a billion trees is insane.
Stupidity is very expensive, and now the bill is being brought to the table.
To avert disaster, a totally renewable energy economy will have to be completely introduced into the infrastructure and up and running *** BEFORE *** Hubbert's peak. Unfortunately, this peak has already happened, probably 2005-2007. As Napoleon Bonaparte said in 1793 "The great majority of men attend to what is necessary only when they feel a need for it - precisely the time when it is too late."
People who understand this do not post much because they are too busy trying to find a solution. I suggest that everyone try to use their time as productively as possible instead of arguing and trying to win a pissing contest. Unless you are an elder, when you shave in the morning you are looking at someone that has a high probability of starving long before the next decade is finished. As of May 2008 there is no solution, so get your ass moving, either alone or in collaboration with others; there is no time to waste. Tell everyone you know that you most immediately important thing to do is conserve energy and potable water. If everyone would drastically reduce their consumption it would bring more time until the crunch arrives or a solution is found.
or
3- an electrical OU device is found, so that overly energy-expensive electrolysis can be tolerated during a transition period to electric motors.
Earl
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Naw it's good we have people like ShruggedAtlas around, a dose of skepticism is healthy and helps to better understanding.
I've been looking into these HHO systems lately, and another thing I realized is that they allow complete combustion of the existing gasoline mixture, which can generate additional output. I think the trick here will be to do some research involving gas evolution based on input voltage and pulse frequency.
The best system I have found is "smack's" HHO system, which seems to be the best point of departure for further research.
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.html
@ Earl...
Does this mean that you have given up on the hope of free energy ?, sure sounds like it ! :-\.
to all sceptics: leave us alone! WE are doing something about what affects you! and were not hurting anyone by making a lil bit of hydrogen, you are hurting everyone by not. your car is only 17 to 22% effecient. hho electrolysis is 80%. add the two together and total effeciency goes up in your car, yes it takes power to make hho, but its power that you dont use anyway. i used to have a stereo that drew 180 amps constantly making 3600 watts in my car. with hho were only using 20 amps. now tell me why this isnt overunity! im not saying it is but... your car can make soooo much electricity that your not using, why not use it to get better milage? duh! so go ahead and be skeptical, directly fund terorists, then call your son a war HEREO, and when its all on the table beg us to know what we were trying to tell you a while ago.
4 us: dont even talk to people who want to sit and try to push us off our pedistal, its not worth the time.
let them be the problem that we can fix one day and make them PAY for it, because they will.
and people say you cant burn hho in addition to gas... duhhhhhhh what about all the people who willingly burn NOS in their car in addition to gas, and if someone cannot draw an understanding from that well then they need to be SHOT. THERE ARE TOO MANY STUPID PEOPLE ON THIS EARTH AND NOTHING TO EAT THEM....
When Werner von Braun decided to make his career in space, he paid no attention to the reasons why it can?t be done; his attitude was, ?How can I get this bird off the ground, and keep it off??
Quote from T. B. Pawels
cheers bear, and i bet he didnt waste his time on people that didnt believe in him.!
Like I remarked in one of my previous posts, I don't like hypocritical people, they annoy me to no end. Its the hypocrites that may be at the receiving end of the gun themselves, fighting endless wars and killing innocents for their precious petroleum. Its us dreamers that keep the world in the newest and best technology. HHO Technology is evolving and becoming better as the people working on it and getting better output on each new version of their HHO generators. I agree with Hairbear, vdubdipr, and everyone that supports HHO Technology. It doesn't have to be overunity, but it has to help free the world of petroleum or help to keep our existing supplies at sustainable levels.
i got a question... if your making enough hho to run your car on it alone, then why is that not considered overunity? i mean if your using 9 hp from the altinator to make over 130 hp run i dont get why that wouldnt be o.u. aside from all the nit picking....
To me, yes, that is over unity. To others it is not. Each persons reality is different. Believe it or not, most of us know how to make it work economically but we have been taught to ignore our instincts and use imperical standards set by others who know nothing of which they claim to be experts. Anyone who uses law in place of theory such as the law of thermodynamics, closes many doors to many answers. Always question your sources, no matter who it is and how well it fits into your thoughts.
Quote from: vdubdipr on May 16, 2008, 10:11:16 PM
i got a question... if your making enough hho to run your car on it alone, then why is that not considered overunity? i mean if your using 9 hp from the altinator to make over 130 hp run i dont get why that wouldnt be o.u. aside from all the nit picking....
I'm not sure sure that it can be called overuinty, but it is definately free energy. Electrically, I suppose it could be overunity. But the gas that is produced by the Hydroxy cell is burned and then exausted out as water vapour. AKA not closed loop, but still a lot cleaner and cheaper than fossil fuels.
[EDIT] What I like about HHO is, it starts out as water, and then is exhausted as water... RE-NEWABLE ENERGY... Aint that what the governments have been preaching all these years ?... It's about time that they practiced what they preach. [/EDIT]
(america) my country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty... more like, my country shited on me, imported oil she.
the only good thing i can think of that came from hydrogen suppresion is that im here right now, trying to learn a.m.a.p. as lovin every second of it!
Quote from: vdubdipr on May 17, 2008, 01:49:27 AM
(america) my country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty... more like, my country shited on me, imported oil she.
the only good thing i can think of that came from hydrogen suppresion is that im here right now, trying to learn a.m.a.p. as lovin every second of it!
The United Kingdom, my country has also crapped on me. And it's great to have you with us all, to show the brainwashed the way forward. I'm glad that you're lovin' it ;).
i hope that only one day the gerneral publuc become aware of how brainwashed they really are! but im afraid that most people are too far gone to even have hope for.... and we can only affect a limited number of people on a small scale compared to how many people voted for our retarded president bush. who now only 35% of people stand by him now...btw
They will realize it when the truth comes out. Then they can run around and wonder, what in the hell just happened!
Br
Hydro...
do you people not read? I've explained how it all works, and with reasonable proof, on multiple forums. I'm not going to repeat that becuase I'm in the business now, and I've seen how people react to it.
It only makes the "energy" transfere from the gasoline, to the mechanic's of the engine more efficient, it lowers heat lose. Engines are moreso heaters then they are car movers.
im not saying that ur idea with the extra battery is a bad idea but isnt that what the alternator is for and u are supposed to put a switch on ur unit so it shots of when ur car is off that way ur car charges the battery and ur unit has a full battery to work with when u are driving
Hi Guys,,
People had better wake up to the fact the powers that be are light years ahead of anything we can dream up. While we are attempting to produce H2 on demand, they are already pumping the hell out of the natural gas (methane) fields and shipping it out !
Check out this guys, I'm sure most of us already have natural gas lines already pumped right to our homes.. So someone tell me why were paying 4 bucks a gallon at the pumps to support countries and corporations that hate the heck out of us ?
http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/app/xn/xd.aspx?it=enweb&xd=4reportspubs%5C4_8focus%5Cnaturalgastohydrogenfuelingstations.xml
We could end a lot of pollution and certainly curtail some corporate wars by making H2 right in our own back yards right now. Then develop the tech to produce H2 " On the fly " !
enjoy
has anyone mentioned that hho burns hotter, quicker, leaving engines to downgrade the cooling system neccessary thus saving horsepower and by the way increasing horse power because the feul is more explosive?
just a thought it might not be OU but after other facts of chemistry are considered it should be. just because electricity to hydrogen to fuel cell to electricity is ineffecient doesnt mean electricity to hydrogen to fire to HP isnt :)
Are you guys using HHO on diesel engines yet? I am curious about HHO and diesel, with the additional compression of the engine, if that affects it any differently
Mark
Quote from: Mark69 on March 09, 2010, 08:35:48 AM
Are you guys using HHO on diesel engines yet? I am curious about HHO and diesel, with the additional compression of the engine, if that affects it any differently
Mark
This caught my eye..apparently someone is;
POPULAR SCIENCE MAGAZINE web site
GALLERY: THE COMPLETE UAV FIELD GUIDE page 28.
Future: Boeing HALE (High Altitude Long Endurance) Drone
Size: 7 tons, 250-foot wingspan…The plane stays up for 10 days...
powered by a Ford truck engine modified to run on hydrogen fuel.:MarkSCoffman