Hi. Having finally got around to doing a little HHO experimenting, unexpected real-world problems are leaving me confused! For example, using plain tap-water, a SS cheese grater that I cut in half (approx 0.5mm thickness) for my plates, and using straight DC, 30v @ 1A, I am finding that after just a few hours, the plate that is attached to the positive has begun to corrode away, with empty-space where there used to be SS! I have also tried SS 'scrubbers' as plates with the same results - the 'positive' side just seems to disintegrate away in no time. Also, the amount of 'gunk' being produced in unbelieveable (see pics) - my guess is that this must be down to the cheapo Chinese SS I am using. If correct, does 'quality' SS undergo a similar process, albeit at a much slower rate?
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needles to say. this is not stainless steel, nor anything close to it.
Quote from: wizkycho on June 09, 2008, 12:59:57 PM
needles to say. this is not stainless steel, nor anything close to it.
I am going by the labelling - and it is labelled as stainless steel! Below is a pic of the scouring pads I mentioned, clearly labelled as SS as well - and they react in exactly the same way. Like I suggested, probably the lowest grade SS possible...
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Probably less than 304 ss. If you want no rust marks on it, go with the 316 ss.(you will not going to get 316 plates for couple of $ that is for sure.) So get ready to invest some $ if you want serious results. ;D
If you don't want the brown muck, try using distilled water and a bit of baking soda. Your tests will be much cleaner. Tap water has a lot of crap in it. Also, if any wiring and connectors are not stainless, they will add to the muck and deteriorate very quickly. Stainless Steel spatulas you use for the kitchen and BBQ will work well. You could even try two large spoons since your doing the kitchen theme thing.
Happy testing!
Thanks guys, good info. Yeah, my 'kitchen-ware' idea seems to have been ill-conceived - I expected kitchen-grade steel to be good stuff, and this is obviously not the case! :) I have just sacrificed a few spoons as suggested and things are working much better - lots less crap being produced (I presume the brown goo is rust-based) and after a few hours the spoons aren't 'dissolving' like the other stuff, but are noticably scored in places - it would appear my cutlery isn't up to much either! :D
Time to source some quality stainless steel...
the better quality metal the better the electrode......
they might be plated with nickel or some other additive used for SS. I think it takes some type of electrolysis to plate them. so by doing what your doing your reversing what was done to plate them.
You might want to try getting rid of those copper wires and replace them with stainless. I replaced my wires with stainless welding rod (308) and had a great reduction in red scum. Also, when you buy your screws, washers and nuts from the bulk bins, there seems, inevitably, to be a zink one or two that sneak in. You will find out pretty quick which those are after you run your setup a little while.
If you can get your fasteners from a fastener supplier. That way if they pull zinc you can gripe and get a discount on your next purchase. 8)
They are usually better priced and have a better selection overall.
sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide will be much cleaner than baking soda as an electrolyte......
Quote from: whopper1967 on June 10, 2008, 11:38:12 PM
sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide will be much cleaner than baking soda as an electrolyte......
But much more difficult to handle, bad side effects if spilled, you can't keep a box of it in your glove compartment safely, etc.
Distilled water makes the biggest difference. I use the water from my basement dehumidifier.
As to scum, I've have SS electrical wall plates soaking in a baking soda bath for about 1 1/2 months, and though I have a bit of rust scum (there is some exposed copper too) but the water is clear when at rest.
If you're talking about the "rime" that forms when water with baking soda in it dries, that's easily taken care of with a bubbler.
If you are serious, and wish to lift the lid, try this:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
Paul.
Thanks guys, lots of more good info!
These SS 'problems' were unexpected 'cos having read a lot about the various DIY systems available, what I am experiencing hasn't even been raised as an issue as far I'm aware. For instance, in the pdf that Paul-R kindly provided, it recommends that "standard" SS can be used, even suggesting "food-preperation cultery" - as you can see (barely) in my latest pic. my results would suggest otherwise... Here, my two spoons have been electrolysing for a few hours, using plain tap-water, and pretty low power - 14v @ 500mA - yet there is about a centimeter of brown gunk at the top! Moreover my spoons are also being slowly dissolved as well!!! I have no idea what 'quality' of SS this is, but I do know it doesn't ever produce rust-marks etc. irrespective of how long it is wet or left in water, so presumably, this could justifiably be labeled "standard" SS, as per the pdf article...
Since three different sources of SS produce the same results, maybe my water is the problem, so I will try distilled water first to rule that out! I also tried baking soda - as expected, huge speed-up in electrolysis but has no effect on the rate of gunk-buildup...
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YES DISTILLED IS THE WAY TO GO.. but even running in distilled youll still get brown gunk for 2 or three running times, then after that itll be clear
Quote from: vdubdipr on June 11, 2008, 08:36:31 PM
YES DISTILLED IS THE WAY TO GO.. but even running in distilled youll still get brown gunk for 2 or three running times, then after that itll be clear
Distilled water is worthless. There are few, if any, charged ions.These are necessary.
Caustic soda is nasty stuff to live with, but is effective. The SS needs to be good. Try
googling for ss suppliers, ask for offcuts of 316L or 317L. You may get them for free.
Best of all, get some switch plates and build a Smacks Booster.
Paul.
WHAT??? CHARGED IONS R U KIDDING ME? IF NOT THEN WHO? HAHAHA YOUR FUNNY HA
CAUSIC SODA IS BAKING SODA WHHHAAATTTTT OK YEEAAHHHH... AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 317 SS IF THERE IS THEN GOOD LUCK. FREE???? WTF YEAH OK
Quote from: vdubdipr on June 12, 2008, 10:09:31 AM
WHAT??? CHARGED IONS R U KIDDING ME? IF NOT THEN WHO? HAHAHA YOUR FUNNY HA
CAUSIC SODA IS BAKING SODA WHHHAAATTTTT OK YEEAAHHHH... AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 317 SS IF THERE IS THEN GOOD LUCK. FREE???? WTF YEAH OK
I can hear the old apple music "You are an idiot" in my head right now.
http://www.nationalspeciality.com/stainlesssteel317.php
And lots of places give away free metal in off cut form.
Well, continuing my kitchen-ware theme, I went and bought a few more SS spoons that come with a 25 year "lifetime warranty", on the presumption they should be of decent quality. I also got distilled water. As expected, very little current flows (30V @ 10mA) but on adding a little soda bicarbonate (not caustic soda - nasty stuff that!) things started to happen! Below is the result with it running for an hour (15V @ 700mA) - still absolutely crystal-clear, apart from the hydrogen bubbles, and no scum-buildup whatsoever, so it must be the tap-water that was the culprit!!! I'm intrigued as to what minerals are present in the water that could cause this - any chemists out there? I wouldn't have thought it possible...
Anyway, now that's sorted, I can start start breadboarding some pulsing circuitry. Fascinating stuff! :D
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Excellent work! Thank you for sharing.
ok so you come at me for sayin what i did about 317, try finding that somewhere in a store, when dude is sayin distilled water is useless for a generator.come on are you serious? im heated, congrats, your newbie asz made a mistake, WHO WHOULD HAVE GUESSED. that was a bad idea kid, just remember people like you are try to get advice from people like me, so you can count on me not helping your ass
Quote from: Sprocket on June 12, 2008, 02:12:23 PM
Anyway, now that's sorted, I can start start breadboarding some pulsing circuitry. Fascinating stuff! :D
You might wish to think along these lines:
http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogengarage/Detail.bok?no=10
The gap between the plates and the voltage drop across each pair are crucial.
Remember that the gas given off is VERY EXPLOSIVE, and burns at a VERY
fast rate. Measure the rate at which it comes off but do not attempt to burn it
with a match or candle if you are not ready to feed it into an engine. This group
is useful: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/
Paul.
@vdubdipr - After running for about 7 hours, as you predicted, there is a faint ring of brown starting to form at the water-line - almost too trivial to mention, and the water & SS still look pristine :)
@Paul-R - Thanks, appreciate the link. As I have most of the electronics already, I will try something home-brew to begin with. Needless to say, I am a long, long way from a practical "booster", as my choice of materials would suggest. I am more interested in seeing how pulsed DC effects gas production to begin with - all baby-steps atm! :D
Quote from: Sprocket on June 13, 2008, 11:03:31 AM
@vdubdipr - After running for about 7 hours, as you predicted, there is a faint ring of brown starting to form at the water-line -
This scum is probably due to your using sodium bicarbonate. It wastes power and produces carbon monoxide, taking the elcetrolyte to sodium hydroxide. Better to start with NaOH.
Carbon monoxide? Wastes power? Can you give a link or something to back that up?
Quote from: Paul-R on June 14, 2008, 06:26:03 AM
This scum is probably due to your using sodium bicarbonate. It wastes power and produces carbon monoxide, taking the elcetrolyte to sodium hydroxide. Better to start with NaOH.
The scum is identical in appearance to what already was being produced, only several orders of magnitude less! Seeing as this was being produced before I ever tried baking soda (the soda just increased current, increasing HHO production and dissolved my SS quicker) I tend to believe that it is being leeched from the SS itself.
I'd still love to understad the physics behind the dissolving spoons - before discovering that the tap-water was the problem, I left the goo settle overnight, and found the majority of it turned a real God-forsaken, bowels-of-hell, pitch-black!!! :D btw, my very first experiment involved using one of my perfectly respectable SS saucepans as part of one of the electrodes (triangular pieces in saucepan, not plastic bowl as in pic) with one electrically isolated (obviously). After about 15min when it become obvious something was amiss, I switched to the plastic bowl. To cut a long story short, I discovered my saucepan was leaking this morning - it has several tiny pin-holes in it! :)
The particles of metal which travel from the cathode to the anode are in the form of ions. An atom of iron (for example), once acted upon electrically through an electrolyte, is broken away from the base metal and becomes an ion with a negative charge. It travels through the electrically conductive electrolyte and goes to the anode since it has an affinity (attraction) for the positive electrode. At that point the ion will lose its negative charge and either stick to the anode or drop to the bottom of the cell. If the particle is small and light enough, it may become part of the electrolyte solution.
Thanks, HeairBear... cool to know what is happening.
Quote from: HeairBear on June 14, 2008, 08:47:22 AM
Carbon monoxide? Wastes power? Can you give a link or something to back that up?
Yes: Try this:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/
There has been extensive correspondence on electrolytes in general, and Bicarbonate
of Soda in particular. The carbonate group breaks down to give off CO usually, and this
chemical process absorbs energy better spent on the task in hand. There is a health
issue, obviously, but the main problem is that you end up with NaOH, but not at the right
concentration to give the amperage wanted.
Paul.
bicv