So I was quite simply thinking of the dreaded sticky point known in pm motors until I started to think along the lines of making the rotor magnet "disappear" for a slight moment to avoid the sticky point and then make it "reappear". And what a better than to use magnetic shielding.
Quite simply when you approach the sticky point some shielding mechanism shields the magnet so it enters effortless and a very short moment later unshields it to let it speed up. The idea seemed so simple that I wanted some opinions as to wether I overlooked something ;D.
Quote from: broli on June 12, 2008, 02:03:25 PM
So I was quite simply thinking of the dreaded sticky point known in pm motors until I started to think along the lines of making the rotor magnet "disappear" for a slight moment to avoid the sticky point and then make it "reappear". And what a better than to use magnetic shielding.
Quite simply when you approach the sticky point some shielding mechanism shields the magnet so it enters effortless and a very short moment later unshields it to let it speed up. The idea seemed so simple that I wanted some opinions as to wether I overlooked something ;D.
Do you mean like this ?
http://www.rexresearch.com/gary/gary1.htm
gary
Yes, that could work. By nature, magnetic shielding using thick steel, mu metal etc. is only partially effective. It doesn't actually block a magnetic field so much as it absorbs it. the shield is attracted to the magnet instead of the ferric material on the other side from the shield. Because of this, you couldn't for instance shield two magnets from each other but you could shield a magnet from a block of steel. You also need to work out how to remove the shield, since it will then become stuck to the original source magnet. Steorn has a patent on a low-energy actuator construct whereby a shield can be moved in and out from a magnet with little energy loss because it is being moved from one magnetic field into another magnetic field of equal strength. So long as your motor design would allow for a secondary magnet to be used like a holder for the shield when its not being used to block the primary field and so long as your design uses magnet-to-metal rather than magnet-to-magnet interactions, then you might be able to get something to work.
You should develop the idea further a post it out here for others to critique ;D
The idea was fueled by this shield;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4528.msg96303.html
So there shouldn't be a problem of the shield being attracted.
I played around with something similar to that a while back in my first failed pm motor design. Note that he is using shields on both magnets. You will still need to figure out some way to move both of the shields in\out with minimum force. If these are mounted on a rotor and stator then it will take extra mechanical effort to move them both at the appropriate times - IE two separate mechanical systems. Kewl idea though. I'd like to see what kind of overall design you're working towards. 8)
Greetings broli
If someone had the answer they would already have the magnet wheel that would not die. You will have to go more drastic with your measures to defeat the wall. What I have observed is that each stack of magnets work together so in a since each magnet group works as one. So if you have a group on one side and then the other you have 2 walls to break. This isn't much but I hope it helps. Last magnet wheel I built was back in 1974 and it ran for 1 1/2 days before it tore out the center of the cardboard wheel. It was my science project. It kind of loped around.
@AB HAMMER
I believe that any magnet wheel that can run for one and a half days is capable of being of being improved to run for a much longer periods. Would you care to share the design? \\regards Neptune
@neptune
All I can remember is that there were 4 magnets in the middle wheel and 8 on the outer side. Each piece was taped and glued and it was tricky setting each magnet to a point to counter act the (what seem to be called the wall) effect. The closest to it on youtube is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB2n9b_lY0k
But all and all this design is problematic that is why I am not trying to duplicate it, besides this guy has. But I do have a design that will be done soon enough.
I came across this concept that I searched for on this forum but found nothing about. It's called the Dual Piston Device...
http://www.fdp.nu/dualpistondevice/default.asp
Now this looks interesting indeed and even another way to improve it is to add stationary magnets on the outside with the same shielding idea so that the magnets gets pushed back instead of relying on very far pull. If this works using that tin/rubber shielding it might be a winner.
@broli
That one is a very interesting SMOT, but it looks hard pressed to be able to do anything else. But with what you are thinking, it should put you into a good direction.
I have been digging in the magnet motor section. It's amazing what you can find. Lots of inspirefull stuff. Anyways I found the following thread...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html
http://kalininaa.narod.ru
You'll have to go down a bit to see some action. But I don't know what the conclusion of this built was but I'm curious whether it could be improved with the rubber/tin shielding. Technically it should eliminate the shield affecting the motion.
Well broli
Yes this could very easily be improved, for they have over complicated them. But it is also a project that myself and another person are setting up the groundworks to do, when I am finished with my gravity wheels. So I can't tell you what it is but I will say it is miles ahead of what I have seen you post so far.
Quote from: AB Hammer on June 15, 2008, 02:58:43 PM
Well broli
Yes this could very easily be improved, for they have over complicated them. But it is also a project that myself and another person are setting up the groundworks to do, when I am finished with my gravity wheels. So I can't tell you what it is but I will say it is miles ahead of what I have seen you post so far.
If you are talking about improving this motor I agree .........it may have lots of potential .
http://kalininaa.narod.ru
WHat comes to my mind is a video that I saw quite a while back .... I don't remember what it was called or where to find it .... and I don't want to spend all day looking . Maybe someone else will remember where it is .
In the video sommeone was expermenting with magnets and a bar or iron .
He demenstrated that the when he placed a magnet at one end of the iron bar the whole piece of iron acted like a magnet . Then placing another magnet near the middle it canceled out the magnetic effects on the end of the bar .
It seems to me that this affect might be usable to make this motor run WITHOUT moving the shielding .
It would take some expermenting and the balance would be delicate . .............but I think that if a bar of iron was used as shielding ........and a LARGE magnet placed on it a distance away from the active magnets in the motor .
The large magnet could magnitize the iron bar and actually attract the piston magnet .
Once the piston magnet got close enough to dominate the magnetic field the polarity of the iron bar would switch ......and that end of the iron bar would in effect become just a core between 2 like magnetic poles .
The key would be to find the balance between all the magnetic forces ......... saturation and flipping would have to happen very close to top dead center .
As I see it it would take a very powerful magnet on the bar to hold the magnetic field long enough .
Also the bar would have to be fairly thick .
Another couple of changes to make it more efficient
The top magnet should be replaced with another piston and magnet setup .
While it should work with only one set of pistons ........the large magnet on the bar is idle much of the time ..... another set of pistons operating 90 degreees behind the original set of pistons would make better use of the large magnet ........ setting 4 sets up in a ring might be better yet .
A coil should be placed on the iron bar in between the pistons and the large magnet .
It should probably be shielded from the magnet .
The inductance of this coil ......I believe it is called lense effect should slow down the flipping of the magnetic field in the iron bar ,,,,,,,,,,,giving the magnets time to move ............
Any power tapped by the coil is FREE ENERGY
gary
@resonanceman
I see you are doing your home work. I remember that video and it was only a steel bar, but the effect of dropping the magnet was a cool effect. I have already redesigned the one seen on the sight you posted, to see if it will have any better effects and it does. But it still don't come close to the design we have planned out. IMHO
Quote from: AB Hammer on June 15, 2008, 06:51:45 PM
@resonanceman
I see you are doing your home work. I remember that video and it was only a steel bar, but the effect of dropping the magnet was a cool effect. I have already redesigned the one seen on the sight you posted, to see if it will have any better effects and it does. But it still don't come close to the design we have planned out. IMHO
AB Hammer
Yes I have been doing alot of homework
:)
I remember when I saw the video I thought it was a cool trick ..........but wondered what it could be good for . .... Now I understand. :)
What I like best about this idea is that it working revolves around lense law ....... with most OU devices people are trying to get around lense law ,....... this idea isn't practical without it .
If we tried this idea without the coils the magnetic fields would switch way to fast and the pistons would not have a chance to move .
gary
Re. the idea about inserting some magnetic shielding at the sticky point - the first knee jerk reaction most scientists will give you is that there isn't really any magnetic shielding material. However - there are materials that magnetic flux much prefers to flow through, and therefore can be diverted away from an area. Steel is obviously the best for this.
Moving steel into the path of a magnet is no problem - it will experience a force pulling it in. But then you have to use force to remove it again. In theory these forces are equal (that's always debateable when it comes to magnetic motors). But basically the energy requirement should balance out to zero. You could use a heavy flywheel to store and release the energy - or, you could have a balanced arrangement, where the force of the steel being pulled into the magnetic field is used to pull the steel away from another magnet.
Quote from: greendoor on June 16, 2008, 01:13:33 AM
Re. the idea about inserting some magnetic shielding at the sticky point - the first knee jerk reaction most scientists will give you is that there isn't really any magnetic shielding material. However - there are materials that magnetic flux much prefers to flow through, and therefore can be diverted away from an area. Steel is obviously the best for this.
Moving steel into the path of a magnet is no problem - it will experience a force pulling it in. But then you have to use force to remove it again. In theory these forces are equal (that's always debateable when it comes to magnetic motors). But basically the energy requirement should balance out to zero. You could use a heavy flywheel to store and release the energy - or, you could have a balanced arrangement, where the force of the steel being pulled into the magnetic field is used to pull the steel away from another magnet.
Greendoor
I agree that in theory the forces are equal ...........however theorys often don't keep up with with discoverys .
Wesley GARY descovered a null zone in magnetic fields many years ago .........the webpage I listed in my first post on this thread had an article about his discovery dated 1879 .
Howard Johnson spent months mapping magnetic fields and also found the null zone .
Howard Johnson wrote about it in his book " The Secret World of Magnets ."
A piece of iron placed in the null zone will take much less energy to move than a piece of iron that is simply close to the null zone . AND the piece of iron in the null zone will compleatly block the mgnetic field .
Howard Johnsons book was first printed in 1970 . As far as I know .......no one has taken the time to actually map the magnetic field sense he did it . We have the technology now to do it much better and quicker ..........
I guess we all prefer blindly following theorys
gary
Welcome to OU greendoor
Trying to balance out one magnet moving a shield from another magnet and back is probably not a viable option since the strength of a magnetic field is nonlinear. It follows the inverse square law. But moving a shield from one magnet to another will work if the strength of the field remains constant during the transition. Look up Steorn's patent for a low energy actuator for a practical application of the principle. Its easier to build something that follows the laws of physics than defeat them.