In the UEC video (timestamps approx 12;12;00 thru 12;59;00) SM is using a clamp-on meter to measure current. He calls it a ?current gauge? and proceeds to call out current values as he moves it around the 17 inch TPU. Clamp-on meters of any kind do not work that way. One must encircle a current carrying wire with the jaws to get a reading with any legitimacy whatsoever. What SM did is so fundamentally incorrect, I have a problem explaining how he could have done such a thing. Anyone taking even a short glance at instruction included with such a meter would not do this.
Anyone care to explain what is going on here?
-Erich
I can explain what is going on. How nice of you to ask.
Your very first post on this forum!! One day member!! Opening a new thread!!
And this is the best you can come up with????????
Did you even bother to read anything concerning SM and the tpu????
You get only one chance to make a first impression.....pfffffffffffffff
Go back to zleep.
Quote from: Spider on June 13, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
I can explain what is going on. How nice of you to ask.
Your very first post on this forum!! One day member!! Opening a new thread!!
And this is the best you can come up with????????
Did you even bother to read anything concerning SM and the tpu????
You get only one chance to make a first impression.....pfffffffffffffff
Go back to zleep.
;D Thanks for not holding back, Spider.
Yes, I have read all the SM and TPU stuff for months now. Thanks for asking.
Best I can come up with? Humm...Time will tell. I wanted to start with something that I have not seen discussed.
What do you think my first impression of Spider is? Don't worry. I wont hold it against you. ;D
Could you answer my question, please?
-Erich
Smoke and mirrors maybe :)
Well, as you must have read the tpu is full of magnetic fields. I suppose thats what he wanted to show. I suppose you know how a clamp-on meter works.
I wont hold it against you either, we have to play France in a couple of hours :D:D
Greetings Rene
The clamp is placed in the moving magnetic field and this creates a current in the claw.
The meter usually measures the field around a conductor but it does not have to be placed around a conductor.
It just has to be placed inside the field.
If you ever played with one of these you would know it makes a response to such a field.
M.
The way I understand the use of the ampmeter by SM in the videos is as shown in the diagram below. Â
Normaly we clamp it on a wire, and its circular magnetic field passes through the sense coil, however, if a lateral magnetic field is present, it will also have half of its flux pass through the pickup coil.
EM
@EMdevices
Thanks for the graphic. Your explanation is clear.
@all
Look at UEC video frames 12;35;10 thru 12;46;16. If we take what we can see in the video with what SM states we have already 1070.1 Watts (870 volts x 1.23 A). Note this is with the ten light bulbs burning. Now if we consider EMdevices estimate that ?half of the flux? goes through the pickup coil as a first order approximation, then we have a circulating current of 2.46 amps on the left edge of the TPU. We might guess from this that the output current and possibly the output power of the TPU is only half the circulating current/power inside the TPU.
Things we need to know:
Could someone test the current going through a standard American 100 watt light bulb when 87 VDC (870V/10 bulbs in series) is applied to it? (Yes, the TPU does not make pure DC.)
Could those of you with clamp-on meters check EMdevices estimate that such an improper use of the meter yields about half the normal flux and thus reading as one would get with proper use? Put a known, stable amount of current through a wire and then see what your readings are when you read it like SM did in the video. Is it half when the meter is so close?
Finally, SM spent time trying to get a reading around the twin toroids in the center of the TPU. The readings were unstable, but the highest I saw was 0.35 A dropping to about 0.20 A. I suspect that the two toroids are configured as a magnetic amplifier and used as a pulse generator to sustain the operation of the TPU. This could explain why readings are erratic (Pulses are difficult for most clamp-on meters.) A pulse generator would also
need only a fraction of the output power to sustain its operation, so the current would be lower. I have been collecting thoughts on the possible use of such a ?mag amp? three weeks already. My logic is uncertain on this, because the data is uncertain, but I will post a new topic on this soon.
Feel free to rip these ideas apart. I seek only the truth.
-Erich
@ET,
What are you looking for?
Greetings Spider
@Spider
I am looking for additional clues. For instance, the 17 inch TPU has the two toroids in the center. I once believed that this was some sort of output filter. I now suspect that it is part of the pulse network to sustain the TPU operation. If we believe, however weakly, the readings SM took near these toroids, then we know that the entire output power is NOT moving through these toroids. And thus, this is not an output filter. If you accept the Tesla idea that high voltage pulses are needed with this TPU, these toroids are the most likely source. Why would you want that? I believe batteries are needed to start the TPU, but could not sustain the large one for long. One must recycle part of the output to sustain pulses.
Additional clues from the 17 inch TPU are available. Consider the switches on the lower left of the TPU. The big one is clearly a three position, double pole, double throw switch. Center position is always "off." What did SM do in the video? He clicked the large switch twice and the smaller one once.
How can one make sense of this? Guess: SM placed the large switch in the original position before the video. This charged a high voltage supply like a fotoflash strobe. SM then clicks the switch twice. The first click disconnects the battery. The second click connects part of the TPU output to the high voltage supply. The other switch turns on the pulse generator circuit. Now runtime is not battery-limited.
Now we know that SM is not exactly "helpful" in his descriptions of what he is doing, but he may have given another clue. When he said "...now I am turning on the first frequency, now the second frequency...." he might mean it in a different way that has been presented in this forum. Try this for a new idea: The first frequency could be just the DC-to-DC strobe frequency to take the battery voltage from something below 9 VDC to over 300 VDC. 35kHz would be no problem. The second frequency would be that of the pulse generator to drive the TPU.
-Erich
I like your involvement ErichTesla, you're firing me up again, and that's good. I use to pour over every detail but I got so tired and worn out lately. Keep up the good work. A lot can be learned from the clamp meter video footage...
EM
Quote from: ErichTesla on June 13, 2008, 06:12:39 PM
Additional clues from the 17 inch TPU are available. Consider the switches on the lower left of the TPU. The big one is clearly a three position, double pole, double throw switch. Center position is always "off." What did SM do in the video? He clicked the large switch twice and the smaller one once.
How can one make sense of this?
Simple. He just didn?t have the right switches at the tpu assembly time and was lazy to search for another one because it didn?t make any difference. ;D ;D ;D
Kames.
On the LTPU the highest amperage seen near the left center toroid was 0.64 amps and at the rear output 1.24 amps.
The minimal amps seen when he scooped around the outer rings as 0.03 amps, but his meter was not properly set when he did this. He then fixed the settings and tested the center toroid, then the rear but he never went back over the rings with the meter properly set. Too bad.
.64 amps in one toroid times two toroids makes 1.28 amps, close enough to the output amps.
Also, everyone must have noticed the left switch also had a volume type control with three wires hooked up. Could be a simple balance control.
@EM
I also have been slacking off somewhat. The video obs just drained me and I needed a change of pace. lol
Hope JD finds that Beta copy.
@Folks
One thing to be aware of is that the majority of modern digital clampprobes (AC/DC w/polarized Hall Effects) have a magnetic field shunt designed clamp. The purpose is to shunt unwanted magnetic fields (those not travelling through the center and the correct axis) away from or redirected from the sensing area. This is true for the ones I use at work.
I can't be 100% sure but the one used in the video appears to be that type and design. So, I'm fairly sure any current displayed would be travelling as if he had clamped around a wire.
As an example I have measured current to an exciter of a 2 megawatt generator - under full load - and had no extra readings of the main stator on a couple of inches away. Neither could I measure current in that environment unless the clamp was around a current carrying wire.
Granted, this is a fairly good meter of Fluke origin.
@Kames
Yes, the lazy-man corollary to Occam's razor. Maybe, but another "simple" reason for the triple position DPDT is that it was needed for the LTPU.
Perhaps Jack Durban can provide us more insight into SM's "junk box." I have seen no such switch on the other TPUs.
@wattsup
I have spent way too much time lately looking at the "left" switch, but somehow I missed the "volume control." You have a good frame number?
@BEP
Do you know about what year magnetic field shunt designed clamps became available?
@all
Do any of you recognize what make of meter SM is using in the video?
ET
Quote from: ErichTesla on June 13, 2008, 10:26:40 PM
@BEP
Do you know about what year magnetic field shunt designed clamps became available?
Sorry, recent to me was about the first time I used one. It was an attachment for my 8060A. I think it was in 83 or 84. I'm aware the military used them in the mid to late 70's but they were 7 segment LED readouts. Even in 83/84 the attachment was over a grand - if memory serves.
I doubt anyone calls them by 'shunt designed' as the shunting of magnetic fields was surely just a way to make it more accurate.
@ET
Here is the frame.
This is the VOB video no. 1 at frame 27792.
I use VirtualDubMod to view these videos.
wattsup, Thanks for the frame grab. I was so focused on trying to see and understand the connections on the
DPDT that I failed to review the volume control. I just reviewed the video again. I was zoomed in too before far as well.
Now I see that he clicks the DPDT twice with his index finger and then the "second frequency" switch with his thumb.
He does not touch the volume control at all.
Do you all agree with this? And what is the assumed use for this volume control?
Quote from: ErichTesla on June 14, 2008, 06:26:04 PM
wattsup, Thanks for the frame grab. I was so focused on trying to see and understand the connections on the
DPDT that I failed to review the volume control. I just reviewed the video again. I was zoomed in too before far as well.
Now I see that he clicks the DPDT twice with his index finger and then the "second frequency" switch with his thumb.
He does not touch the volume control at all.
Do you all agree with this? And what is the assumed use for this volume control?
As long as there are undisclosed items, like in the black box, we will and can never know the real design of what is going on. We can only take from standard physics and engineering practices to surmise it's internal operation. We see the output but not the input or the inbetween.
Some one in the past here said 'It's too bad he doesn't show an oscilloscope'. How profound is that? That led me to abandon reverse engineering these devices. We all got to a certain part and just dropped it across the board.
But if this spurs your curiosity then that is the best part of all because you'll catch the fever like the rest and possibly build something or detect something new!
I hope you do build something or perform a test of some sorts. It should be really cool.
--giantkiller. Good luck on a fresh view.