I still think that direct injection is the way to go
I think that a small simple pump is required
It would have to be easy to make and be able to inject directly into a cylinder of a diesel near top dead center .
Now .............believe it or not ........everyone that has been reading these threads knows how to build this pump .
You just havn't connected the dots yet ..
Lets connect a few dots starting with the fuel line
Connected to the fuel line would be a check valve .
Conected to that check valve would be a non conducting high pressure tube .
Connected to the other end of the the non conducting tube would be another check valve .
Connected to the second check valve would be a non conducting high pressure tuble going to the cylinder .
A board with some simple electronics would also be needed .
Oh ......... also ....... there would have to be wires from the output of the electronic board to the bodies of the check valves .
For the most basic electronic controls we would need a high voltage source and a low voltage source . and a way to switch the high voltage source on and off at the right times .
The most advanced countrols that could be made would include a small computer that creates simulations of all the signals that a modern ICE looks for .
It doesn't matter if we create bubbles in the water as we pump it .
All that is required is we get the pumping pressure up quickly at the right time
Can the volume that we pump be controlled ?
I am not sure what ink jet printers use for check valves ........but they work in this exact same way . They seem to control the volume pretty well
gary
I think that the ideal way to ignite the water is to make a spark plug with a tube going through the middle of it ..........and have electrodes in that tube .
One nice thing about this set up ....... neither of the electrodes would not have to be connected to the engine
learning to make plugs like this would not be easy ....... but it would make a good " cottage industry " once the details are ironed out
gary
After thinking about how the arc would work in between the bodies of the check valves I realized that it would be difficult to construct without making a gap that was way to wide .
I am now thinking that a metal tube should be attached to one check valve and a metal rod to the other .
The rod would fit inside the tube .......the spark gap would be between them .
The high pressure non conducting tube would slide over the metal tube .......and it would have to be a little longer than the metal tube to prevent sparking between the metal tube and the other check valve body
The whole thing should be rigid .......but it doesn't have to be aligned perfectly .
gary
For the plug part of the injector what looks best to me was found on the first link of post 335 on Lucs Urgent thread .
http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html
Unlike this thruster I think the plug part for our uses should be ALWAYS on
It should be powered by a simple HV transformer .
The voltage of the transformer should be low enough that there is no arcing unless there is water or plasma in the gap
The engine HP will be regulated by how much of a bang we make in the injector .
I think we will have to scale the sparks back a bit . ....... the sparks that people are getting now are probably to big for the injector . ..........
An ignition coil may be to big for the HV for the injector .
The water will take a short amount of time to move through the second check valve .........this will offset any need to retard the timing .
A small accumulator could be added to even out the pressure of the injector bang and make the plug fire longer ......
gary
I did a couple simple of the basic concept of the electrode end of the plug
I am new to drawing on the computer .
It took WAY longer than it should have to draw these . It is not hard .........but it is like learning a new language . You have to search for the way each thing is done.
These drawings are for concept only .
There is no measurements worked out yet
The first image is of the actual electrode set up that fires into the cylinder
The blue part represents the outer shell . At first I will be breaking the ceramic out of old sparkplugs and reusing it for this part .
The black is a tungsten rod
I did a quick search and found that tungsten electrodes are avalible for some common welders from .40 in to 3/16 in. There may be other sizes commonly available .
The largest electorode that there is space for should be used .
The red is a section of copper tube
The white is a castable ceramic .
I am thinking of trying 2 part Silica ceramic
Part Number: 8498K11 from http://www.mcmaster.com/
In the drawing notice that the botom of the ceramic part is rounded as it leaves the copper electrode . This is to try to draw the plasma into a fan shape. It is less likely to burn a hole in the piston that way .
The second drawing is more about construction than theory .
The green section is a cross section of what I would call the electrode carrier . It is a combination electrode holder and mold . The yellow section fits over the threads of the old spark plug thread and between the 2 of them I should be able to get good enough alignment during construction
I would like to be able to build the check valves into the top of the plug ............but that may not be practical
I will have to experment with the accumulator part of it to see how big it needs to be .
There may also be good reasons for several accumulators with valves to switch them in or out of operation .
This plug is designed to be switched by the output of the injector . The voltage will have to be kept just below what will arc across the gap with no water or plasma in the gap .
Notice that the ceramic sticks out the bottom more than the width of the gap . ....this is to prevent stray plasma from shorting out to the engine block
gary
Gary et al,
This looks a lot simpler.
http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy (http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy)
The video at the top is the one I am referring to.
user zenarrow from here has compiled some of the really concise and important videos about brown's gas.
this video is a drawing and explanation of the (simple) engine modifications necessary to accomplish driving results using HHO.
The really important part is the implosion instead of explosion.
It really makes sense to me.
Where ex-plosion is very wasteful, perhaps im-plosion is the clue to overunity.
have a look
jeanna
Hi Jeanna, nice find. That video shows what most here are not understanding when it comes to using HHO to power a engine but even the makers of that video have missed something.
Now think real hard about what you seen in that video and think about what has been found out on other topics such as Luc's. Then send me an PM telling me what you figured out.
A man figured this out many years ago but didn?t use water. He used gases. You may recall the video I am talking about once you figure out what I am talking about.
LOL, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, it just takes some common sense.
I have been thinking about the check valve acumullator thing
I have decided that it would be foolish to try to put everything together in one package at this time .
There are just to many wild cards .........there is to much that can be done to limit it to one set of variables .
As I see it the weight of the check valve may be similar to inductance .
The strength of the check valve spring may be similar to resistance .
An accumulator can act very much like a capacitor .
Now ..........if we have the engine running and kick in a second small accumulator ...... and maybe put a little more pressure on the check valve spring we have something that works kind of like a vacume advance .
The fact that the combustion prosess is much faster than with gas is a problem if you are thinking in conventional terms .
If you look at it from a different angle it may not be a problem .
Can you only inject water for the same amount of time that you would be injecting oil in a diesel?
Why not use a big accumulator ..........and a very heavy valve or better yet a hydroloically dampened valve
The accumulator could hold the entire blast from the injector and feed it into the engine over a much longer time frame ............ the biggest problem with this is it would become self defeating at high speed . The valve would have to be less dampened or the spring less pressure at higher rpm
I am still working on how to do that .
gary
Hi Gary
Thought you might like to look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q4bW1E9eXc
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/photos/browse/2b41 take a look at this....might be of interest to you resonance.
Quote from: whopper1967 on July 06, 2008, 10:12:28 PM
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/photos/browse/2b41 take a look at this....might be of interest to you resonance.
Whopper thanks for the link
I joined that group ......not sure how much time I will spend there but I will look around
The duel anode injectors are very similar to my original idea for an injector ..........then Stefan posted the link for the thruster . It is WAY better ....... I also don't think the outer part of the plug should be connected to high voltage .
It looks like people are having lots of trouble with their replications at least in part of this kind of grounding .
gary
Hi.
If HHO would had an imploding type burning, adding HHO to the manifold along with the gasoline would decrease the horsepower.
Instead, they report increases.
Anyway, how do we know it's implosion and not explosion?
If implosion, the timing of spark woud have to be adjusted a lot...
You have to get your thinking straight on this spark plug project.
Are you trying to dissociate water into H & O, and burn them releasing heat? If so - I believe you are going the wrong way, and the energy you will require will be as great as the energy you hope to get out of it. But if that's what turns you on, at least design the plug for that: high temperature ceramics might be the way to go. Probably re-inventing the wheel - checkout the Firestorm plug and others like it that have never seen the light of day because of the powers that be.
If - like I believe - you think the power in water spark plasma is a low temperature release of the latent heat energy in liquid water, then your plug design principles and materials will have to be very different.
Graneau believes that the spark energy is an electro-mechanical breaking of the hydrogen bonds that link water molecules together. It takes about 50 joules of spark energy to do this, compared to about 10,000 Joules of spark energy to dissociate water into H & O. Totally different things.
It's the low temperature application that suggests the greatest amount of free power - and by all account these explosions do not raise the temperature much above ambiant.
The amount of air required is also debateable, as is the compression ratio. I believe a completely new engine would be the best way to exploit this new energy source. I'm thinking something more like a water pump - perhaps with accumulators to even out the pressure impulses.
ICE engines can be converted to run on compressed air - so the water spark cells could be external. I think that is a much better idea - because it would solve the issues of rusting, hydraulicing & freezing.
Quote from: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 07:06:18 AM
You have to get your thinking straight on this spark plug project.
Greendoor
I have a suggestion for you .
Before you tell some one " You have to " visit your local hospital and take a walk through the intensive care unit .
You will quickly find that eating and breathing are much preferred but not strictly needed to live .
Is my need to get my thinking straight more important than eating or breathing ?
Quote
Are you trying to dissociate water into H & O, and burn them releasing heat? If so - I believe you are going the wrong way, and the energy you will require will be as great as the energy you hope to get out of it. But if that's what turns you on, at least design the plug for that: high temperature ceramics might be the way to go. Probably re-inventing the wheel - checkout the Firestorm plug and others like it that have never seen the light of day because of the powers that be.
If - like I believe - you think the power in water spark plasma is a low temperature release of the latent heat energy in liquid water, then your plug design principles and materials will have to be very different.
Graneau believes that the spark energy is an electro-mechanical breaking of the hydrogen bonds that link water molecules together. It takes about 50 joules of spark energy to do this, compared to about 10,000 Joules of spark energy to dissociate water into H & O. Totally different things.
It's the low temperature application that suggests the greatest amount of free power - and by all account these explosions do not raise the temperature much above ambiant.
The amount of air required is also debateable, as is the compression ratio. I believe a completely new engine would be the best way to exploit this new energy source. I'm thinking something more like a water pump - perhaps with accumulators to even out the pressure impulses.
ICE engines can be converted to run on compressed air - so the water spark cells could be external. I think that is a much better idea - because it would solve the issues of rusting, hydraulicing & freezing.
I don't care .
To me all this is mental mumbo jumbo .
I can go to the store and buy a pair of running shoes without knowing the chemical composition of the soles or the exact steps in manufacturing them .
I have noticed that running with running shoes is much better than running in dress shoes .
So I buy running shoes for running .
The choices I have made to get me to my current design are because of the observations that I have made .
In the end my design will probably be much lower power than most ...........both the pump section and the injector section have built in limits on the power used .
In the pump the power used is only enough to inject the right amount of water into the cylinder .
If you are thinking in mumbo jumbo you will be wondering " now much water? ."
I don't care .
I will inject a little and see if it works ........
If it doesn't work I will try a little more .
Once I get it running adding more water will make it run faster .............up to a point ....... I will find that point by observing what happens .
gary
After thinking about the design of the pump part of the injector I came to realize that bubbles dictate certain details of the design
For the pump itself the output check valve HAS to be higher than the input check valve
If the input valve is higher the bubbles would tend to collect there and the air pocket would grow with each firing ....... eventually shutting off any flow
Controlling the same problem in the connection between the pump section and the injector section creates a way to make a variable accumulator .
All that is needed is a set of discharge tubes of that leave different amounts of space above them .
So by selecting a discharge tube with a valve it will be possible to set the accumulator .
I hope to get a simple drawing of this stuff posted this in the next day or so .
gary
Here is a simple drawing of my injector pump
The light blue is the bodies of the check valves .
The brown is a rigid non conductive tube of some kind
The yellow is a tube .....probably stainless steel . it is connected to one of the check valve bodies
The green is a rod connected to the other check valve . ....... stainless
The red are the electrical connections . WIth this design the power that would go to the plug on Sr1's design will go to these connections
The whole idea of this device is to create bubbles with enough force to pump a small amount of water into the cylinder ...... Either the low voltage current will be used to determine the amount of water pumped . Or for very small motors the HV spark may be controlled .
gary