I have heard that testatika motor can supply 3kW, but as you can see... the testatika motor runs at very low rpm.
It uses a stator and a rotor like the windmills? or how it produces the energy?
Magnethos,
One theory is that the disks are there just to act as a variable dielectric in a variable capacitor and that the source of the high voltage is something else. This means that the high voltage DC is supplied by something else (e.g.s: the magnets, the small cans) while the disks and the parts that face it, what Paul Baumann refers to as the antenna keys, supply smaller AC. When you combine the two you would end up with DC with AC riding on top of it being used by the pots. In that case there's no mystery to the disks running slow since in that case they would not be the source of the energy, just the source of some necessary AC.
Just to give one highly theoretical example... The whole thing is started by turning the disks by hand. Immediately you have AC at the antenna keys (the parts facing the disks.) This AC is small at first. If this AC is too small then we can guess that the darker disk is made of some material like vinyl which can be charged by rubbing it. In that case the AC would be larger. I know this from experiment. This AC would be used to stimulate the crystals in the smaller cans and in the two tall ones at the back. This crystals would then give off beta particles (high energy electrons.) That's the energy you've just tapped into. The result is a high voltage with a lot of charge. We need to reduce that voltage for useful output. That's where the pots might come in. The inner spiral and the outer perforated cylinder would act as two plates of a leaky capacitor. In the case of the 3kW machine, the inner spiral would be the leaky part since it's electrically connected to the two small, crystal-containing cans in front of the disks, the source of those energetic eletrons. Through arcing and corona over many stages, the charge would make it's way from the inner spiral, through various meshes and perforated metal to the outputs at the tops of the pots, the HV being lowered in the process. The reason for the AC from the disks was to provide a little back and forth movement to the charges as it moved through the interior of the pots to keep the path from being too conductive.
All the above was just to point out that the disks could play only a small part, providing just an AC signal. The reason for the slow speed is that the AC signal has to be of relatively low frequency.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Thank you very much for the info Steven.
I thought that the source of energy was the disk, and not, as you say the disk only provides help to supply a small amount of AC. The high voltage DC comes from the (magnets?,small can? or something else). Then the AC would be use to to stimulate the crystals and obtain beta particles that supply high voltage. Then the voltage is converted into usable voltage.
So... they key to obtain energy is to stimulate the crystals?
I read that the crystals were Mountain radioactive Crystals or something similar.
I asked to you that because I have a possible schematic to build an Infinite Voltage supply and then I can increase the voltage with a voltage multiplier circuit. But... I think that the crystals are very hard to find.
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 09:25:09 AM
I thought that the source of energy was the disk, and not, as you say the disk only provides help to supply a small amount of AC. The high voltage DC comes from the (magnets?,small can? or something else). Then the AC would be use to to stimulate the crystals and obtain beta particles that supply high voltage. Then the voltage is converted into usable voltage.
So... they key to obtain energy is to stimulate the crystals?
Remember, it's all just theory. The one I gave was just one theory. The source of energy could very well be the disk. The Methernithan community isn't telling anyone how it works.
-Steve
http://rimstar.orrg
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on August 10, 2008, 01:02:13 PM
Remember, it's all just theory. The one I gave was just one theory. The source of energy could very well be the disk. The Methernithan community isn't telling anyone how it works.
-Steve
http://rimstar.orrg
So... it will be difficult to understand how testatika works. I don't know why people make some big inventions and then hide the information.
Are we damned to a generation of lost inventions?
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 02:34:32 PM
Are we damned to a generation of lost inventions?
Only if we sit on our butts and don't theorize and experiment ourselves. If they did it then so can we. See diagram of my current working theory and photo for my work as of Friday for inspiration.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Hi Magnethos (and hi Steve),
I too have my theory.
From my analysis, the Testatika machine is misleading because it resembles an electrostatic generator.
From my work it seems that the most powerful Testatikas work through COMPLETELY ELECTROMAGNETIC means instead.
(Well, the single disk machine should use electrostatic means for disk propulsion and HV shf generation)
The motor is multiplied something like 1:10, so when you make one turn on the disks the EM HV generator (one modified electric motor) makes 10 turns.
You could just not feel the motor mechanical resistance, if the circuit starts immediately the energy amplification process.
http://www.utenti.lycos.it/fischerconsulting/testatpu.html
(This theory I wrote is in my opinion the closest to the real inner workings of Testatikas)
The concept should be the same of EV Gray (Baumann based is work on EV Gray? I don't know of course, but it's possible), Bedini pulse motor, Konzen pulse motor and others.
F_dyne
@ Steven
Your schematics seems like one of my schematics. I read about Electron cascade effect.
if we apply a high frequency, high voltage, alternating field across an insulator that we produce this [J.Willard] Gibbs phenomenon, this non-Maxwellian field, which has a differential polarization, that is, that it creates a polarity differential between it and the environment such that neutral and charged air molecules are accelerated at extremely high speed, not very low speed, but at very high speed toward the emitter. As these molecules are accelerated they collide with other molecules in the air and when this collision occurs the electrons are knocked off the molecules, that is, free electrons are knocked off the molecules and they in turn are accelerated by this field and then collide with the other the basis of what we call the electron cascade - we have an entire cascade of electrons being generated everywhere in the environment.
Source: http://energy21.freeservers.com/electroncasc.htm
I found this while I was searching for The Linden Experiment (related with Testatika)
Seeing at your schematics, you say "... of energy from ZPE"
What is ZPE?
What you think of my schematic? Is possible to generate energy from that effect?
I have to say that I can build a device to obtain high voltage from the air.
Quote from: f_dyne on August 10, 2008, 03:18:49 PM
Hi Magnethos (and hi Steve),
I too have my theory.
From my analysis, the Testatika machine is misleading because it resembles an electrostatic generator.
From my work it seems that the Testatika is an COMPLETELY ELECTROMAGNETIC machine instead.
F_dyne;
I disagree, the Testatika machine is a specialised Wimshurst machine connected to a
RF power oscillator. The two horse-shoe magnetic units are variable frequency oscillator
capacitor used for an internal power regulation loops.
The specialized Wimhust machine is an AC capacitively coupled Wimshurst Machine
as it uses collector plates rather than wear-out prone brushes. The overunity occurs
in the whole testatika machine due to COP>1 of electrostatic generators. The AC is
generated by psuedorandomly selecting a sector and capacitively pulling it down. Why; to
allow certain sectors to maintain HV high voltage to recruit external charge to pull the others
back up faster. This is what allows the slow wheel RPM. This AC pick-off also gets the
static high electric voltage down too. Yeah - this would eliminate the direct static electric
voltages tendency to generate X-Rays in vacuum tubes too.
( my only theory is that the black ground wheel is carbon black particles used to create a
"Xerox" like background image of the high voltage sectors to slow down charge migration
on the wheel)
The back part of the machine is a one tube RF power oscillator patterned on an amature
radio 2KW linear amplifier. The whole point of the RF oscillator is so the RF step down
transformers can be lightweight and require no iron cores even at high power levels. This
RF method allows electrical power to be pulled out of the natural electrostatic processes
without them being adversely affected. So one can keep doing it.
The electrostaticly derived AC is rectified and used as plate voltage for the vacuum tube
power RF oscillator. The big round cans are the step RF power down transformers.
(inductors with capacitors integrated LC)
The VFO vericap units are part of two control loops one regulates the speed of the motor
and the other the RF center frequency of the power oscillator. The reasonant power
sweet spot of the machine is at the center frequency. By moving away from the center
frequency it causes the machine to become less powerful if the load is low and humidity
is low They cause the machine to become more powerful when the load is high or
the air highly humid by moving the RF frequency to the reasonant sweet spot and
speeding up the wheel motor.
Unfortunately the testatika machine also contains a cheat! The rings magnets inside the
final transformers/coils allow machines to talk to one another by coupling power magnetically
from one unit to the next via Shiffler-like circuit. The extent to which this cheat is actually
used is unknown. They could of had a central power unit communicating power while it was
powered by hydroelectricity inside the mountain or something or they may have used it to
couple in power only when they were bringing a new unit up.
(BTW I doubt that one would put any radioactive materials inside capacitor units
because the atomic particles would just make them leaky capacitors.)
Functions required;
Get power -> electrostatic generator
Get overunity -> COP>1 of electrostatic generators
Step down static high voltage -> use AC coupling of wheel
Eliminate brush wear -> use AC coupling of wheel
Keep some of Wimshurst sectors at high static voltage -> use AC coupling of wheel
Equalise HV static wear on sectors -> use pseudorandom sectors of wheels
Need for light weight compact high power transformers -> use RF step down
Need for large dynamic power range -> use vacuum tube type electronics
Need for large RF dynamic range for power-> use RF center frequency regulation - loop1
Need for large dynamic range in wimshurst machine -> control rate of motor rotation - loop2
The design is very compact as they resuse parts and functions heavily trying to absolutely
minimise the number of precision hand built components. They were also probably trying to eventually
synthesize 50Hz @ 220Vac output but that required too much reuse of components and accuracy
to do correctly in this unit so they were unsuccessful in doing it.
Abbreviations used;
RF - Radio Frequency
RPM - Revolutions Per Minute
BTW - By the Way
KW - KiloWatts
AC - Alternating Current
HV - High Voltage
VFO - Variable Frequency Oscillator
COP - Coefficient of Output Power versus input power
Vac - Volts Alternating Current
Hz - Hertz
LC - Inductor and Capacitor reasonant
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
@ Steven
Your schematics seems like one of my schematics. I read about Electron cascade effect.
I saw it earlier. I didn't comment because I wanted to read what others had to say first.
Maybe I'm missing something but the energy used to accelerate the electrons to extremely high speed is provided by the electric field which you supply. It takes energy to create that electric field. My understanding is that the net energy would be less than you put in. I think of the electric field as a pool cue (stick) which you use to hit the white ball. The white ball then hits the black ball. The white and black balls are the electrons. The amount of energy in the black ball will be less than the amount of energy in the white ball since some will have been lost during the transfer of energy (during the collision.) The amount of energy in the white ball just after you hit it with the pool cue will be less than the amount of energy you put into moving the cue. Saying you'll get out more energy from electron cascade than you put in seems to me like saying the black ball will all of a sudden have more energy than you had used to move the pool cue.
The exception is if the black ball (an electron) was already moving and when the white ball hit it, the black ball now has its initial energy plus the energy it got from the white ball. The energy it already had is the excess energy you gain. The question then is how many already energetic electrons are there that will be redirected by the electric field?
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
Seeing at your schematics, you say "... of energy from ZPE"
What is ZPE?
Sorry. It's a pretty common acronym. ZPE = Zero Point Energy. It's the energy that exists even at absolute zero degrees Kelvin (-273 degrees Celsius). It's a part of quantum physics and has been experimentally proven to exist in the Casimir effect. It's energy that exists in the space between the particles and some say is available in huge quatities. The problem is that it is at an extremely high frequency and so is hard to resonate with. It is a problem for nanotechnologists because the Casimir effect can cause problems at the small scale that they work with.
I'm hoping for a way of tapping into it by using some of the ZPE to create brand spanking new electrons. This would give me some voltage for free. It's just my current pie in the sky, hair-brained idea, but heck. Come to think of it, the above diagram I drew is missing a permanent magnet that provides a magnetic field parallel to the plates. My hope is that the magnetic field would provide spin for these new electrons while waves from my electric field and from other particles in the universe (the plus from the ZPE) make up initial spherical waves to get it going. That part stems from a whole theory of matter called the Wave Structure of Matter (or WSM) model. I need the ionized air to provide a conduction path for these new electrons, plus a soup for the "magic" to happen in.
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
What you think of my schematic? Is possible to generate energy from that effect?
I have to say that I can build a device to obtain high voltage from the air.
Have you already? Details please. Don't let anything I say stop you.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
(Hi F_dyne!)
Mark,
Quote from: mscoffman on August 10, 2008, 05:27:55 PM
The specialized Wimhust machine is an AC capacitively coupled Wimshurst Machine
as it uses collector plates rather than wear-out prone brushes. The overunity occurs
in the whole testatika machine due to COP>1 of electrostatic generators. The AC is
generated by psuedorandomly selecting a sector and capacitively pulling it down. Why; to
allow certain sectors to maintain HV high voltage to recruit external charge to pull the others
back up faster.
<snip>
Get overunity -> COP>1 of electrostatic generators
As a result of what you say above, I'd really like to hear what you think of what I said above about electron cascade. I think the same reasons would apply to why I'd think that electrostatic generators COP<1. But I'd be happy to be wrong.
Quote from: mscoffman on August 10, 2008, 05:27:55 PM
(BTW I doubt that one would put any radioactive materials inside capacitor units
because the atomic particles would just make them leaky capacitors.)
They wouldn't be capacitor units. They'd be the one part of your system that would absolutely have to be a custom made thingamagig. In any new free energy device there has to be a thingamagig. The pots (the two big cans) I build are all thingamagigs.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Quote from: mscoffman on August 10, 2008, 05:27:55 PM
The overunity occurs
in the whole testatika machine due to COP>1 of electrostatic generators.
-Where the excess energy could come from, then?
-Do you know Daniel Pomerleau? He induces overunity effects into normal wire coils. The effect takes some time to vanish. This happens also in Testatika when a back coil is temporarily removed (Marinov's report, and other).
Then: The electron cascade effect should be the normal effect oberved in sparks. The voltage is energy/charge. When energy/charge is over a certain threshold, the air become conductive in that point and the voltage is propagated to the next air molecules. When all molecules are ionized in a path, the voltage permits a current flow. This should be a key principle in Testatika power amplification too, but should not be the reason of the power gain.
F_dyne
Quote from: f_dyne on August 10, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
-Do you know Daniel Pomerleau? He induces overunity effects into normal wire coils. The effect takes some time to vanish. This happens also in Testatika when a back coil is temporarily removed (Marinov's report, and other).
I've always thought the reason the testatika resumed after the coil was put back in was because it was part of the circuit and the circuit included a charged capacitor somewhere. Once the coil was back in place, the energy in the charged capacitor caused the circuit to continue functioning.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on August 10, 2008, 07:51:17 PM
I've always thought the reason the testatika resumed after the coil was put back in was because it was part of the circuit and the circuit included a charged capacitor somewhere. Once the coil was back in place, the energy in the charged capacitor caused the circuit to continue functioning.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
This condenser thing is obvious reasoning, of course... I try also not obvious reasoning if I can't resolve the puzzle (then I must test of course).
The motor is said to be connected to the horseshoe magnets in the small double disk Testatika, so I assume that no DC current can flow through this path...but DC could be created on the fly if the horseshoe assembly works as an unidirectional amplifier pumped by HV shf. The grids between horseshoe legs would then be shf transmission means between the legs coils, a kind of sequence of collimated antennas.
From the rear pic of the big machine we see clearly (unless some other possible tricks hidden inside the tower) that the motor circuit is looped through the top "diode" too.
The big machine "diode" have only two connections (you can verify from the pics), so this makes a kind of short circuit.
The short circuit must then be interrupted sometimes to drive the motor (lateral high black "resistors" are switches?) or HV shf is rectified in the "diode" by a magnetic field, which would explain the grid in the "diode" as being a magnetised ferromagnetic grid, maybe magnetised by induction from a magnet under (compatible with hauser report).
Then... what the big machine horseshoes would be used for ???
Possible explanation... horseshoes are used for power, "diode" for speed regulation.
F_dyne
Quote from: f_dyne on August 11, 2008, 04:41:37 AM
The motor is said to be connected to the horseshoe magnets in the small double disk Testatika, so I assume that no DC current can flow through this path...but DC could be created on the fly if the horseshoe assembly works as an unidirectional amplifier pumped by HV shf. The grids between horseshoe legs would then be shf transmission means between the legs coils, a kind of sequence of collimated antennas.
Just one other possibility I'd like to point out... The bottom ends of the coils around the horseshoe magnet legs might be electrically connected to the magnets allowing DC. The purpose of this would be to get energy from within the magnet assuming that would work. This is one permutation I always test for.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
WOW Guys,, What a wonderful read.. Thankyou..! :)
Keep it going please.
@ Moab
thank you, you're welcome.
@ Steve
after some brain scraping, I could find one effect of using ferrite as a high resistance antenna, a la "stromerzeuger".
This kind of device, driven in HV shf, should concentrate charges on the poles (for example, all plus charges on north pole and all minus charges on south pole).
This comes at a price... if you have a superimposed amplifying coil, the energy amplification should be reduced because you are separating opposite deionizing charges.
It should be possible to obtain amplification through contact charging of metal plates on poles, though.
Is this the principle behind top-left and top-right small single disk machine condensers? I don't know yet.
F_dyne
F_dyne
The output cans are particularly interesting - alternating layers and a final output layer - reminds me ot the Joe Cell and Ev Gray tube.
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on August 10, 2008, 05:53:23 PM
Mark,
As a result of what you say above, I'd really like to hear what you think of what I said above about electron cascade. I think the same reasons would apply to why I'd think that electrostatic generators COP<1. But I'd be happy to be wrong.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
I was going to do a post on that. I'll have to read some more about the effect. But I think what happens is
that ionized matter simply causes other free electrons to collect together in groups of like static electric charges.
It's sort of like fire, where a fire in one part of the material cause the fire in another part. The reason I put this
COP>1 law together is that it seems as if one puts ionized matter on a "lazy susan" and rotates it around in the
environment one could always make the lazy susan somewhat larger and one would recruit even more charge.
add some antenna wires and get even more again. This lack of a seeming one-for-one collection criteria makes
it much different from the operation of an electromagnetic generator which has very tight laws coupling input energy
and output energy. Why is collecting of ionized charges any different then the heatpump's collection of thermal
carriers? A difference between heatpumps and static electric generators is that Carnot's law inhibits the efficiency
of thermal engines, but that efficiency limitation does not bind electrostatic conversions for motor operation,
meaning self running systems are possible.
This whole process is made possible by the "electroweak nuclear force", which allow the electrons to reside
together even though their like charges should send them flying apart. The question is whether any additional
explanations are really necessary above that the charges can recruit one another and the electrons can reside
together in groups because of the electroweak force.
Now, I will say, that if one takes this tendency down to the atomic size scale it is highly suggestive that
one may be able to find a pathway by which the electroweak force causes mass to energy conversion. This
pathway may have been overlooked by researches during WWII as they "went for the gold" of reactions
involving the highly energetic strong nuclear force. So there may be some chapters yet to be written for
science's book of atomic (rather than nuclear) energy. I am not really a physics person and don't know
the math and also have my hands full with existing overunity stuff. But I really hope that you or someone
else may be able to crack this and seems like it would be a worthwhile study.
As for the macro scale this effect cannot be considered ZPE zero point energy because nature already knows
about it, as thunderstorms create ionized matter. The fix up currents of atmospheric electricity can themselves be
a source of energy. Terry Tharp in one of those videos said; "it is highly unusual but lightning seems to keep striking
my laboratory". What does that tell you about how his high speed overunity generator operates?
:S:MarkSCoffman
Mark,
Thanks for posting. Since you bring up the electroweak nuclear force and since I can't make heads nor tails of it from the reading I just did (though my reading makes me wonder if you meant the weak force since electroweak includes both electromagnetic and weak), I guess I can't say much more about your overall theory of why it works. However, I addressed a few points below...
Quote from: mscoffman on August 11, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
I was going to do a post on that. I'll have to read some more about the effect. But I think what happens is
that ionized matter simply causes other free electrons to collect together in groups of like static electric charges.
It's sort of like fire, where a fire in one part of the material cause the fire in another part. The reason I put this
COP>1 law together is that it seems as if one puts ionized matter on a "lazy susan" and rotates it around in the
environment one could always make the lazy susan somewhat larger and one would recruit even more charge.
add some antenna wires and get even more again.
I haven't done the math either but when I think of the energy interactions for the above I always get:
- use energy/do work to positively charge lazy susan
- as a result, electrons are attracted
- electrons hit antenna before they can get to lazy susan, thus avoiding neutralizing lazy susan
- but now we have this negatively charged antenna's electric field blocking the lazy susan's electric field so we need to move those electrons to somewhere else
- to move those electrons we need somewhere else to be positively charged but how did that get positively charged? Also, once the electrons get there, it'll be neutralized and we'll have to positively charge it again... more work required.
Basically I always get stuck and that's why I "suspect" that if we do the math we'll find the energy equations balance out.
Quote from: mscoffman on August 11, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
This lack of a seeming one-for-one collection criteria makes
it much different from the operation of an electromagnetic generator which has very tight laws coupling input energy
and output energy. Why is collecting of ionized charges any different then the heatpump's collection of thermal
carriers?
Because a heatpump uses mechanical energy to physically move a mass which contains heat energy. There is no energy transformation between the two types of energy. It is like pumping oil out of the ground. The oil contains energy in its chemical bonds which were made by the sun's energy when the oil was plant life.
Using energy to produce an electric field can gather electrons together. But that's more like using mechanical energy to compress a spring. The potential energy in the spring is produced by the act of compressing it just as the potential energy of the electrons, their desire to mutually repel, is produced by the act of gathering them. There was no energy in the electrons to start with (assuming we're not talking about using things like the electrons spin, ...)
The above assumes that your ideas re the electroweak force don't address that. If they do then I can't say more until I understand more.
Quote from: mscoffman on August 11, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
A difference between heatpumps and static electric generators is that Carnot's law inhibits the efficiency
of thermal engines, but that efficiency limitation does not bind electrostatic conversions for motor operation,
meaning self running systems are possible.
This whole process is made possible by the "electroweak nuclear force", which allow the electrons to reside
together even though their like charges should send them flying apart. The question is whether any additional
explanations are really necessary above that the charges can recruit one another and the electrons can reside
together in groups because of the electroweak force.
Now, I will say, that if one takes this tendency down to the atomic size scale it is highly suggestive that
one may be able to find a pathway by which the electroweak force causes mass to energy conversion. This
pathway may have been overlooked by researches during WWII as they "went for the gold" of reactions
involving the highly energetic strong nuclear force. So there may be some chapters yet to be written for
science's book of atomic (rather than nuclear) energy. I am not really a physics person and don't know
the math and also have my hands full with existing overunity stuff. But I really hope that you or someone
else may be able to crack this and seems like it would be a worthwhile study.
As for the macro scale this effect cannot be considered ZPE zero point energy because nature already knows
about it, as thunderstorms create ionized matter. The fix up currents of atmospheric electricity can themselves be
a source of energy. Terry Tharp in one of those videos said; "it is highly unusual but lightning seems to keep striking
my laboratory". What does that tell you about how his high speed overunity generator operates?
The obvious answer is that something about his high speed overunity generator ionizes the air. Do you have a link to more information about his generator? Searching the net came up empty.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Quote from: mscoffman on August 11, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
This whole process is made possible by the "electroweak nuclear force", which allow the electrons to reside
together even though their like charges should send them flying apart. The question is whether any additional
explanations are really necessary above that the charges can recruit one another and the electrons can reside
together in groups because of the electroweak force.
I'm not a physics PhD, but here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_force
I read:
"The word weak derives from the fact that the typical field strength is 10^11 times less than the strength of the electromagnetic force"
F_dyne
Well, static electricity and how it works is pretty well known, I think. Atoms in a material
are free to give up some of their electrons without the nature of the material and having to
change it's form. So a belt or a disk is caused to form a "cloud" of free electrons residing
somewhere on it's surface. That cloud can move around but it's generally static on the
surface, Any resistance acts more like a time-delay to static electricity, because the
current is vanishingly small and so cannot dissipate any energy in the resistance.
The material that is ionized positively(+) is generally mechanically pinned, and will then
begin to be neutralized again by electrons being transported into the area by nature.
The "electroweak force" from what I understand arbitrates the ability of electrons to form
a group cloud in the first place, because the electrical charge on each electron should force
all electrons to avoid one another and fly off into space. They call it the electroweak force
because it used to be that these electro + weak forces were considered separate but
they were united by experiments with a particle accelerator. The same thing happens
in the nucleus of an atom where positively charged protons all reside packed together
in a very small space. They too want to all fly apart, what holds them together is the
"strong nuclear force". Breaking the strong force is what suplies the energy in normal
nuclear reactions.
Once you already have a whole bunch of electrons clustered together they form an
electrical field which has a voltage - that causes additional matter to become
ionized and to collect even more free electrons in the cloud. Obviously the belt or disk
takes some energy to move in the environment especially when there is static electric
cloud attached to it's surface. But I think the electrodynamic potential energy of the
electrons being collected exceeds the energy being used to move the belt or disk.
<- That is overunity energy - but there is a cost and that is that the environment
doesn't want ionized matter around and therfore step in to neutralize it . But then as
a result nature has to expend it's internal energy flows to balance what you took out
- and that is not ZPE. It is not like getting energy from a magnet and then nothing
happens ->that is ZPE.
Once you've got the electrons collected, you can either use them to collect more
electrons or else convert them into electrodynamic current to do work. It's hard
to convert them in electrodynamic current efficiently enough to build a self running
machine, but it can be done.
So what I hope you are seeing is that I think static electric machines are inheriently
overunity because there is more energy available in the electrons then it took to
collect them. To some extent because what it takes to dissipate them doesn't
operate fast enough in nature to cancel the collection. So that allows the charge to recycled
and reused creating even more charge. You don't have to do anything to produce them
as they are alread overunity...But, you do have to convert that static electrcity
to electrodynamic current efficiently in the end, cause if you don't you won't have
enough overunity energy to run a self running machine. And you then won't notice
that it is already an inheriently overunity process in the static electric collection
process in the first place. There are not "gobbs" more energy in the electrons then
was used to collect them first place - just "some" more.
I hope you can see that a self running static electric machine is like the freon (actually
methylchloride) based "dipping bird" which gets it's energy from nature's maintenance of
a low humidity atmosphere in a world where water is present. Self running static electric
machines get their energy from nature's maintenance of non-ionized matter in a world if
you do the right thing you can ionize matter and collect the electrons in a way that the
process self repeats at a low energy cost. A heat pump gets it's energy from nature's
maintenance of thermal equilibriumn a world if you do the right thing you can collect
thermalized matter... A heat pump cannot form a self running system because of
efficiency limitations built into heat engine process by Carnot law. So self running static
electric machines should not be too suprising. The "dipping bird" already self runs.
The above are all very different (hence the COP>1 terminology) from getting energy from
a ZPE process were nature supposedly is not affected at all and the outcome energy is
extra in the universe.
a) Fuel process energy - requires a quantity of fuel , doesn't violate CoE
b) COP>1 processes energy - requires that natural systems eventually come up with
the energy difference, doesn't violate CoE
c) ZPE process energy - quantum processes evolve energy and the energy is extra in
nature, does violate CoE
Only (c) of the above can compete with (a) under all circumstances. (b) can be inherently
valuable but there is a cost paid by the environment that may or may not be acceptable
if billion of humans try doing the process all at once. So this means that prohibitions
against perpetual motion machines are not really correct statements, they are obsoleted
by understanding the above table.
Now..If you take the self running static electric machine and you begin to reduce it's
size That's where you may begin to observe "electroweak" mater to energy conversion.
It doesn't power the static electric COP>1 overunity machines, but it makes use of the
same principles. Also if you think there is ZPE actually occuring in static electric
processes it's going to very difficult to experimentally validate it as natural processes are
going to keep trying to hide it.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on August 14, 2008, 01:24:59 PM
Once you already have a whole bunch of electrons clustered together they form an
electrical field which has a voltage - that causes additional matter to become
ionized and to collect even more free electrons in the cloud. Obviously the belt or disk
takes some energy to move in the environment especially when there is static electric
cloud attached to it's surface. But I think the electrodynamic potential energy of the
electrons being collected exceeds the energy being used to move the belt or disk.
<- That is overunity energy - but there is a cost and that is that the environment
doesn't want ionized matter around and therfore step in to neutralize it . But then as
a result nature has to expend it's internal energy flows to balance what you took out
I guess that's the whole question then. Only experiment will tell for sure. Though I disagree, the experiment I illustrated above would take advantage of it, even though I'm hoping for ZPE tapping in amongst the meshes. Experiment will tell, experiment is king. I may have seen support already for one or both approaches. The small Van de Graaff machine I use, shown in the above photo, on it's own produces puny, thin, harmless sparks. In the configuration in the photo I once discharged it using thumb and finger of one hand after around 10 seconds of running and got a shock that strongly ran right up my arm to my shoulder. I use a discharge rod now :-). If I allow sparks around the disk area, really from the copper plate capacitors on the backplate and through the disk wires, they are loud and thick. In fact, I'm guessing I had a little UV damage to one eye around two months back as a result - now healed. I use welding goggles now :-). In all my years working with HV and with much more powerful power supplies producing sparks, I have never before had an eye injury, assuming that was the cause. However, the difference in spark strength may just be because there is extra capacitance for the Van de Graaff machine to use. I'm still plugging away.
Quote from: mscoffman on August 14, 2008, 01:24:59 PM
<snip>
The above are all very different (hence the COP>1 terminology) from getting energy from
a ZPE process were nature supposedly is not affected at all and the outcome energy is
extra in the universe.
a) Fuel process energy - requires a quantity of fuel , doesn't violate CoE
b) COP>1 processes energy - requires that natural systems eventually come up with
the energy difference, doesn't violate CoE
c) ZPE process energy - quantum processes evolve energy and the energy is extra in
nature, does violate CoE
Only (c) of the above can compete with (a) under all circumstances. (b) can be inherently
valuable but there is a cost paid by the environment that may or may not be acceptable
if billion of humans try doing the process all at once. So this means that prohibitions
against perpetual motion machines are not really correct statements, they are obsoleted
by understanding the above table.
Put another way, (a) is powered from the sun (fossil fuels, biofuels), (b) is the electroweak force (?) which get's energy from where (ZPE?), (c) depends on the physics model you use. In standard quantum theory I don't know the source of the energy of the virtual particles, whereas in the wave structure of matter (WSM) model it's waves emitted by all particles in the universe but I think that energy is abundant enough and replenished fast enough that the only effect I can see would be temporary power failures and gravitational effects - may require new types of appliances. Support for your approach, (b), may be that there is nothing in the testatika visitor reports about secondary effects though the conditions may just not have been right (no cars around at the time to stall.)
UPDATE: I did plenty of work on it this week but it takes time to get the spacing and material right. So far I have sparking in between the layers when I want corona.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Well, as someone else has already written this in another Testatika thread I will just mention it again, as I came also upon this idea quite some time ago and verified it.
I was discussing with someone, if the Testatika is an electrostatic induction base machine, like e.g. a Wimshurst. I said, it can't be, for a simple reason: The grilles they use would be a death blow for an electrostatic induction machine, as you would usually really prevent as much as you can any corona discharges. And how the Testatika is made would really not prevent but provoke corona discharges. And then the idea came, they want to have corona discharges, this is how this thing works (well at least the rotary part of it).
the principle is simple. If you have an electric field near a conductor (e.g. from a electret or another charged but insulated conductor), then current would flow inside this conductor until the electric field in the conductor would be everywhere 0. But as we know, the electrons will not be evenly distributed in the conductor, especially if there are sharp edges. There, much more electrons will gather, and the local electron density in the conductor will be much higher. Due this, at this point a corona discharge will happen. This means, electrons will fly into the air. This now means, the conductor has not eneough electrons anymore to have an E-Field of 0, So new current will flow in the conductor (electrons will be sucked into the conductor). And then the conductor will again have some corona discharge, ...
Sure, the problem is, that the air there would become more and more charged, and therefore it will not work anymore very good. Therefore you either move the conductor or the air, so that there can be some air exchange. It will work also without this special movement as the movement due to the temperature of the air will carry away some charge, but this will not be very efficient.
So all in all what this does, is, the movement of the air will do the work, to let the current flow (so the air will cool). But due to this principle you cannot get much power out of it. In the test experiment I made, which was about a grille with the size of half a hand, I could just produce enough power to light up a little lamp every few seconds. So, while this is surely maybe a nice toy, to demonstarte someone what FE is, it is completely useless for real power generation.
But I think, as is also indicated in the Testatika movie, that the rotary equipment is not used for the generation of the power. It is just a simple self running HV Generator (But surely not as much HV as a normal electrostatic induction machine).
This HV is then IMHO used to generate the power in the pots. How these work, can only be speculated. I think similar to the Gray tube. And I think the gray tube works like a farnsworth electron multiplier, but which also makes use of the geiger-counter principle of an electron cascade effect.
BTW: Just for the really few, who don't know. The magnets and the second rotor are not really needed. The first machines, didn't have them but worked also. They are just there for improvement, but not needed for the basic principle.
And IMHO Paul Potter's schematic is not right (but that's just my opinion). As Marinov simply explained what's in the pots. And there you recognize, that Baumann made an actually improved design of the gray tube, by using a coil with a few turns as the anode instead of the bar in the gray tube. As Farnsworth also mentioned some design similar to that as improvement in his patent(s).
Quote from: Shanti on August 16, 2008, 05:48:44 PM
BTW: Just for the really few, who don't know. The magnets and the second rotor are not really needed. The first machines, didn't have them but worked also. They are just there for improvement, but not needed for the basic principle.
Just one added note to this, in the Amateur video (the one that is a walk through of the Methernitha workshop), Luzi Cathomen, chief engineer at Methernitha, mentions that the disk in the single disk small machine had to turn twice as fast to make up for the fact that there wasn't a second rotor. So the parts for the second rotor are probably the fixed parts behind the disk. That also means there is a certain frequency required.
I also speculate that there is a ring magnet at the bottom center behind the white grill in the single disk small machine but that's just my speculation.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
@steve dufresne
I know that when we were kids and my dad did some welding we used to be around and look at the arc
sometimes and it does make your eyeballs burn. It's like any burn, it heals after a while with no long term effects
as far as I know. It comparable to solar UV burns suffered by high altitude skiers. But i guess it would not good
to keep doing it.
And yes the weak nuclear force itself would be ZPE but the weak-force is also somewhat of an abstraction
as it is there with all matter.
I wanted to repeat what I said somewhat more abbreviated fashion; self recruiting static electritic generators tend
to be inherently overunity because the electrons would disspate except that there must be collective force between
them that allows them to become collected and that causes the ability to have an increased field strength needed
for self recruitment and ionizing other matter. So this electroweak nuclear force adds energy and that is the source
of the modest amount of extra energy displayed by the electrons of a static field. So self recruitment seems to imply
inherent overunity which can be seen only with efficient downconversion of static electric charge to electrodynamic
current.
@shanti
The grilles they use would be a death blow for an electrostatic induction machine,
as you would usually really prevent as much as you can any corona discharges.
And how the Testatika is made would really not prevent but provoke corona discharges.
And then the idea came, they want to have corona discharges, this is how this thing works
(well at least the rotary part of it). the principle is simple. If you have an electric field near a
conductor (e.g. from a electret or another charged but insulated conductor), then current would
flow inside this conductor until the electric field in the conductor would be everywhere 0.
But as we know, the electrons will not be evenly distributed in the conductor, especially if
there are sharp edges. There, much more electrons will gather, and the local electron density
in the conductor will be much higher. Due this, at this point a corona discharge will happen.
This means, electrons will fly into the air. This now means, the conductor has not eneough
electrons anymore to have an E-Field of 0, So new current will flow in the conductor (electrons
will be sucked into the conductor). And then the conductor will again have some corona discharge, ...
Sure, the problem is, that the air there would become more and more charged, and therefore it
will not work anymore very good. Therefore you either move the conductor or the air, so that there
can be some air exchange. It will work also without this special movement as the movement
due to the temperature of the air will carry away some charge, but this will not be very efficient.
So all in all what this does, is, the movement of the air will do the work, to let the current flow
(so the air will cool). But due to this principle you cannot get much power out of it. In the test
experiment I made, which was about a grille with the size of half a hand, I could just produce
enough power to light up a little lamp every few seconds. So, while this is surely maybe a nice
toy, to demonstarte someone what FE is, it is completely useless for real power generation.
--->
Agreed. The grill work on an electrostatic machine HV wheel seems anomalous to me also.
Those grill work points would cause high static field strength to occur at the points as you
say. But if one then alternated grill work patterns between different sectors the high potential
areas would alternate making each sector appear independent of the other to some extent. I was thinking
that this was in the nature of developing AC from the Wimshurst machine which is I consider
non-standard. Your idea of using "corona" coupling rather then capacitive coupling is interesting.
I wonder if there were patents for any AC Wimshurst machine that might shed light on some of
this as to why the wheel was designed the way it was. The machine design could have
come directly from Tesla as he supported AC current and Influence machines would have
popular at the time. Except for this, I have never heard of anyone using a static electric machine
as a HV power supply for Vacuum tube type equipment. (other then x_rays tubes), but I think
it might have worked.
One thing is that one needs the machine to *start itself* and one will need to spend some time
doing it with a vacuum tube. Even though is may or may not been a pure vacuum inside the tube.
To be honest except for the overall tendency of how component are used, I don't really fully trust
schematics so I think that the details of exactly how the machine works will forever remain
somewhat elusive. I think if I could do measurements on an operating machine I could figure it out.
Also as you say that different eras and output powers of the machine had different components and
circuit designs.
I believe there where ring magnets at the center of those "pots" making the potential for external
power transfers a real possibility, even though the two pots on one machine would probably talk
to eachother first. This means that the tube would simply have to be an active circuit element like
a shiffler circuit and the Wimshurst part of the machine may been used as something that developed
plate voltage for the tube only, as you say. The machine would have still been required to be variable
sized to respond to "demand" differences ie a user's 7 Watt nightlight vs. 1KW resistive heater etc.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on August 17, 2008, 02:16:24 PM
I wanted to repeat what I said somewhat more abbreviated fashion; self recruiting static electritic generators tend
to be inherently overunity because the electrons would disspate except that there must be collective force between
them that allows them to become collected and that causes the ability to have an increased field strength needed
for self recruitment and ionizing other matter. So this electroweak nuclear force adds energy and that is the source
of the modest amount of extra energy displayed by the electrons of a static field. So self recruitment seems to imply
inherent overunity which can be seen only with efficient downconversion of static electric charge to electrodynamic
current.
Oh, I see what you're saying now and where you think the extra energy comes from - the work the electroweak force is doing in bringing/holding the like-charged electrons together. However, I thought what brought and kept them together was the presense of something with a net positive charge. You're saying there's a force in and among the electrons alone that does the gathering and holding? Sorry, I can't find a clear enough explanation of the electroweak force that states this. What I find is that the electroweak force consists of the electric force (Coulomb's Law), the magnetic force (F=qvXB) and the weak force. As far as I can see, none of these forces have electrons gathering together without the influence of protons. If you say you've read of such a beast then I'm willing to leave it at that.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org