I want to know if I build a 'squared' Newman motor if the motor will work ok or not.
When I mean squared newman motor I mean this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amoa5gosGzA
Of course, the video shows a homemade simple electric generator but I want you see the video to have an idea of what I mean.
Could a newman motor work with that configuration (in a squared instead of a circular configuration)?
Of course and even better (when square magnets or axially magnetixed cylind. magnet(s).
When circular configuration then magnet need to be ball-mode or radially magnetized disk magnet (or curved end(s)).
And when sphere magnet then spherically wound windings are the best.
I have no idea why nobody does like that.
khabe
added picture - this is the best choice,
The same could be done when radially magnetized disk or ring magnets.
Square or ... what you use here like axial cyl. - then you have to choice or axial machine or radial machine.
Sphere 50 mm
http://www.neotexx.com/ item # K-050-N
Dimension: D50mm / Volume: 65450mmÅ,
NdFeB Magnet in N40 (1.29 Tesla)
Magnetized Direction: through 50mm
Coating: Nickel
Max. Operating Temperature: 80?C
Ring 50 - 30 x 10mm diametral
Dimension: D50xd30x10mm / Volume: 12566mmÅ,
NdFeB Magnet in N40 (1.29 Tesla)
Magnetized Direction: through 50mm (diametral)
Coating: Nickel
Max. Operating Temperature: 80?C
item # R-050-D-30-010-N
http://www.neotexx.com/
Radial version.
Used 5 x ring magnets
Ring 50 - 30 x 10mm diametral
Dimension: D50xd30x10mm / Volume: 12566mmÅ,
NdFeB Magnet in N40 (1.29 Tesla)
Magnetized Direction: through 50mm (diametral)
Coating: Nickel
Max. Operating Temperature: 80?C
item # R-050-D-30-010-N
http://www.neotexx.com/
Useful part of windings = rotor lenght (50mm)
Upper and lower sides ;-)
The same but upgraded version,
See rotating outer back iron, flange for and plastic housing/frame helps to fix windings from on one side (fixed to face bearing holder)
Regards,
khabe
I once built square version:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2Fkfrenky%2FRfQSE7vUM5I%2FAAAAAAAAAAk%2FTvKYUJguzkY%2Fs800%2FIMG_2655.JPG&hash=6420355733c4d64d9ea55bf6d9a7af8e85822718)
More photos:
http://picasaweb.google.com/kfrenky/NewmansMotor
Very interesting info. I don?t know why people do always the same experiment... and again and again...
They can build the motor with other configurations and see what happens.
Personally, I want to mix bedini and newman motor.
And simple Axial version. I would prefer X-mode wound coils (A-a = 180 degrees) (for all models ;-) - not parallel like original Newman does but OK,
When X-mode wound then also multipole rotor is possible and why not the same number of coil pairs ;-)
You can now compare what kind of version has more useful winding area ::)
It seems that Sphere does, then comes long radial :-\ For axial I prefer also back irons - just two nickel-iron disks on both sides
as close to windings as possible. Or rotating soft iron wheels :o
Regards,
khabe
The last seems to be the best one. I thought in a similar motor as you as drawed. But the magnet are like in the bedini motor, something like this
Like this, sorry
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.imageshack.us%2Fimg132%2F1308%2Fp1000666na1.jpg&hash=127b8789d64a9658eb119af344007077b86fac35)
But it's very interesting your schematic. Do you think that newman motor will work if you put the magnets in front of the rotor instead of the sides of the rotor?
Quote from: Magnethos on August 09, 2008, 04:23:33 PM
But it's very interesting your schematic. Do you think that newman motor will work if you put the magnets in front of the rotor instead of the sides of the rotor?
Mhh? All I drawed does work, if you follow correctly. I dont understand what you mean.
Do you mean the last one? It is axial flux machine, see direction of flux of each magnets. One is NS, another SN,
Magnets could be squares as well, restangles, segments ... Both magnets are one-piece magnets! :o
khabe
PS:
Bedini has the same pole magnets? N.N.N.N.N.N ... ? Then you can not use this kind of rotor for Newman!
Quote from: khabe on August 09, 2008, 04:36:47 PM
Mhh? All I drawed does work, if you follow correctly. I dont understand what you mean.
Do you mean the last one? It is axial flux machine, see direction of flux of each magnets. One is NS, another SN,
Magnets could be squares as well, restangles, segments ... Both magnets are one-piece magnets! :o
khabe
PS:
Bedini has the same pole magnets? N.N.N.N.N.N ... ? Then you can not use this kind of rotor for Newman!
Sorry for the few that I know, but yes is the last one, the axial flux machine. And of course, I haven't seen at the pole magnets.
The newman motor runs on volts, not on current
The bedini motor has a good shape and speed, so...
I was looking how to merge the 2 motors, and now I know how can I do it thanks to you.
@futuristic
Yes, something similar but your motor is Bedini Window Motor. I want to merge bedini and newman.
@khabe
Yes, something like this:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg292.imageshack.us%2Fmy.php%3Fimage%3Dsinttuloef3.jpg&hash=917eda87fcf831d8650fde69e3ce5c63b04d2208)
http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sinttuloef3.jpg
Hi,
A magnetic motor can take any shape you want, some designs are just more or less efficient.
A Joseph Newman motor is a magnetic motor with a special commutator. The commutator is the Newman's motor particularity. His commutator is design to create torque, bemf and uses HIGH voltage.
A good analysis of the Newman Motor: http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/newman.htm (http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/newman.htm)
QuoteMatter in motion. Back in the early 1960's Joseph Newman wondered what was the mechanical essence, the nature, of this "matter in motion." In Chapter Two of his book -- THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN -- Joseph Newman describes the fundamental essence of a magnetic field as a particle having a "gyroscopic spin." This gyroscopic action is fundamental to understanding the mechanical nature of electromagnetism.
When one understands the gyroscopic characteristics of the matter in motion contained within an electromagnetic field, then one begins to recognize a better mechanical means of harnessing this kinetic energy. To generate the largest possible magnetic field within a copper coil and therefore to have access to greater numbers of "matter in motion" -- (for purposes of simplicity of understanding, Joseph Newman refers to this matter in motion as gyroscopic particles) -- one must input large amounts of voltage to achieve maximum atom alignment in the copper coil. When this high voltage input occurs, the copper coil atoms release their kinetic energy in the form of a magnetic field.
QuoteJoseph Newman supplies an external electrical stimulus to his coil (and special commutator system) that generates the magnetic field containing the gyroscopic particles (matter in motion). This external electrical stimulus takes the form of high voltage -- and the higher the better until maximum atom alignment of the coil is achieved. At the same time the current is kept as low as possible to minimize resistance; thereby the Newman motor always runs "cool." The externally applied high voltage is not "consumed" by the system -- it operates in the same manner as the hydraulic system in an automobile. The reservoir of brake fluid is not "used up" but supplies a continual hydraulic pressure to the automobile's brake system. In a similar fashion the high input voltage (and low current) acts as an electrical 'hydraulic' pressure to continually realign the atoms within the motor's copper coil. The continual collapse and expansion of the copper coil's magnetic field creates the mechanical torque of the motor. (The special commutator system achieves this continual collapse and expansion of the magnetic field.)
The net increase of external electrical energy from the system directly comes from the energy produced internally within the copper coil. This net energy is greater than the small amount of current originally inputed into the system along with the high voltage. In the final analysis where is the excess energy coming from? Answer: from the atoms of the copper coil within the motor/generator.
Dr. Roger Hastings, a physicist who has worked extensively with Joseph Newman over a number of years, has calculated that this system is so conversion efficient that it may take decades (or far longer) to be able to measure any appreciable mass loss in the coil.
I hope this helps you in your Newman's motor researches.
Michel
The Newman Motor concept.
My recent replication tries to implement those concepts. Big coil, big magnetic rotor and the special Newman commutator: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5287.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5287.0.html)
In generator mode, turned by hand, it produces 180 vac. I used over 5 miles of awg 31 magnet wire, Newman used 55 miles of magnet wire. My rotor weights in at 1 kg, his about 300 kg. He drives his motor at around 2,000v and mine will work on about 250v.
The square coil is good only if you use a thin square magnet. If it is a big square magnet, you need a rectangular coil so the edges clear. A extended rectangular coil creates two magnetic vortices at each end of it and opposed*. The round coil creates two magnetic vortices in the center. The North magnetic pole of the rotor is propelled by this vortex with a much stronger force than using the Bedini principle. This concept becomes evident when when you study the magnetic vortices produced by each poles of a magnet. The Bedini system is very different as it fires (pulsed or not) at a specific locations (n-poles) on a rotor. He uses the strongest pole only, the North end.
Hope this helps,
Michel
*See Howard Johnson paper on magnetic vortices. "The Secret World of Magnets (http://cheniere.org/sales/buy-ma.htm)" I have seen an online version of it last spring.
The Bedini/Newman motor would be hard to do as magnets are used differently and the rotor concept is different and I think close to incompatible. A Bedini rotor would be inefficient in a Newman coil and a Bedini drive would be too weak for a Newman rotor.
In the Bedini setup, the wheel with magnets (rotor) is the commutator as in the Newman's motor the wheel with magnets (rotor) is one big magnet and cannot be used as an efficient commutator.
That should narrow down your search somemore,
Michel
Quote from: khabe on August 09, 2008, 03:29:30 PM
The same but upgraded version,
See rotating outer back iron, flange for and plastic housing/frame helps to fix windings from on one side (fixed to face bearing holder)
Regards,
khabe
You have very nice consepts for the Newman motor. Original motor is big and ineffective and it has big distributed inductance.
Hi kahbe,
I like the simple Axial version. It has much potential for a nice magnetic motor.
2 90 degree V configured coils in close proximity near the shaft of the motor. The 4 magnets would have to be rotated from your design position or cylindrical magnets could be use for more power or axially magnetized rectangular or square magnets. The coils in series or parallel can be fed with a simple commutator to complete the design.
The others look more like the current industrial design but the axial one I like very much.
Take care,
Michel
David Wells Weather Control System is bullshit, but his motor construction is quite good and simple.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:David_Wells_Weather_Control_System
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F3a%2FDavid_Wells_weather_machine_300.jpg&hash=1f29e82d3a187c5fab4bf1d458b85c2d6a4f5a27)
Coil has ferrite or iron core and magnet are cheap speaker magnet with iron poles. Firing seems to be with transistor. Operational principle of motor same as in Bedini or Lutec motor...
Michelinho,
Are you trying to teach papa how to make childs ? ::)
In principle near all electric machines could be expanded upon as Newman?s motor :o
In reality it is quite the contrary :'(
Any upgrading of Newma?s motor makes it more close to true machine.
Hereby 8 pole / 8 coil-pairs / axial / air-gap / one phase machine,
Making this kind coils is not too hard for owners of common sense, fecund imagination will help 8)
I hope you are able to understand about polarity of each coil :-[
Series connecting is simple, when parallel then you have to know a bit more about motor theory ...
This unit will be much more effiecient when on to both sides added back iron ;)
cheers,
khabe
when two-side rotating back-irons then test version looks like :o
Magnets as thick as possible, coils as thin as possible, air-gap(s) ...1.0 mm,
Coils thickness (one side) maximum 1/2 thickness of magnets (when Neodymium magnets)
Coils are pressed and epoxy impregnated ... different ways how to fix to outer frame ...
regards,
khabe
@ all
Thanks for the info, it's very interesting
Quote from: onlov on August 10, 2008, 01:11:57 AM
David Wells Weather Control System is bullshit, but his motor construction is quite good and simple.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:David_Wells_Weather_Control_System
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F3a%2FDavid_Wells_weather_machine_300.jpg&hash=1f29e82d3a187c5fab4bf1d458b85c2d6a4f5a27)
Coil has ferrite or iron core and magnet are cheap speaker magnet with iron poles. Firing seems to be with transistor. Operational principle of motor same as in Bedini or Lutec motor...
I met David Wells some time ago...
Do you say thet is bullshit? I have speak few about that with Mr Wells
Quote from: khabe on August 10, 2008, 05:05:00 AM
when two-side rotating back-irons then test version looks like :o
Magnets as thick as possible, coils as thin as possible, air-gap(s) ...1.0 mm,
Coils thickness (one side) maximum 1/2 thickness of magnets (when Neodymium magnets)
Coils are pressed and epoxy impregnated ... different ways how to fix to outer frame ...
regards,
khabe
This design seems to be Very Very interesting... thanks man. I was searching to make a device with the best thing of newman and bedini.
Run on voltage and thinner shape. I have a device that can supply a good amount of volts from the air to the newman engine.
Just few words about back-iron:
When rotating back-iron then solid soft iron - there material choice is not so critical.
When stationar then or laminated (or well wound thin soft magnetic wire) or powder (SMC),
Laminated means adequate direction - when axial machine as above was then like tape wound core,
When radial machine then laminated rings ... And of course material choice. Silicon iron, or nickel iron, or cobalt-iron (this is veeeery expensive >:(
As thinner matarial used as better ...
Rotating back iron causes less losses - not often used because mostly complacated to build.
But anyway - sometimes - like this last scheme of axial machine - it is not hard to make at all (how to fix coils? - with clamps for example ;-)
Back iron need not to be very thick - when just only 0.5mm air-gap of simple magnetic circuit then 1/2 thickness of (Neo)magnets is enough,
When added thickness of coil + aircap then back iron could be much more thinner ...
The only thing what need to be followed - mechanical strenght. Magnets will try to bend it - it must to be made rigid,
The same about the shafts I have seen when looked pictures on OU threads - too thin shafts mostly used.
This 8 pole axial machine I blocked out has ca 100mm OD of disc and has 12mm shaft ... This is just my own experience.
I hope my DIY English was understandable.
Hereby cutaway of 6 pole / radial air-gap / rotating back iron motor,
Actually 3-phase BLDC PM motor but it does not matter when apply reason,
Windings are epoxy impregnated - fixed to frame from one side only.
regards,
khabe
Quote from: khabe on August 10, 2008, 07:22:56 AM
Hereby cutaway of 6 pole / radial air-gap / rotating back iron motor,
Actually 3-phase BLDC PM motor but it does not matter when apply reason,
Windings are epoxy impregnated - fixed to frame from one side only.
regards,
khabe
But that motor runs on volts as newman motor?
Magnethos:
QuoteI met David Wells some time ago...
Do you say thet is bullshit? I have speak few about that with Mr Wel
Sounds like snakeoil. But if you are saying, David Wells make better or worse Weather, maybe it's better to believe? :-\ Woud he pop here in Finland with his weathermachine and make little bit sunshine?
I have wondered, here in Finland weather is very cold and rainy. Maybe my 'friend', mr Careica has maked this weather machine? He is still teenager and he don't know how to control this machine!
;D
Quote from: Magnethos on August 10, 2008, 07:50:33 AM
But that motor runs on volts as newman motor?
If you use lot of turns of thin copper wire, it's like voltage driving and less turns with thicker wire it's like current driving.
But all motor works with Watts. It means both voltage and current...
Quote from: Magnethos on August 09, 2008, 04:58:00 PM
@futuristic
Yes, something similar but your motor is Bedini Window Motor.
You are a funny guy :D
My motor is not Bedini motor. It's replication of Newmans motor that Naudin has built:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fimages%2Fqmm11anm.gif&hash=0ee858fc4d864dc6784c06d50d25fc10fc01a782)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/qmmv11.htm
QuoteMichelinho,
Are you trying to teach papa how to make childs ? Roll Eyes
Not in the least... ;D
*our 8 coil axial design is not what I meant. 2 long rectangular coils like a 2 coil design Newman but bent 90 degree like your 8 coils system. Rotate the magnets axialy with the rotor and use cylindrical magnets. You preserve the Newman design and have 4 attraction and 4 repulsion poles driving the magnets.
Your way would work fine but the newman part is no more. It could be driven with a Bedini circuit with a Hall effect or a small pickup coil. A reed switch would probably not survive the ride.
Take care,
Michel
Quote from: futuristic on August 10, 2008, 04:32:28 PM
You are a funny guy :D
My motor is not Bedini motor. It's replication of Newmans motor that Naudin has built:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjnaudin.free.fr%2Fimages%2Fqmm11anm.gif&hash=0ee858fc4d864dc6784c06d50d25fc10fc01a782)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/qmmv11.htm
Hi Futuristic,
We know what is a Newman Motor, it is we are trying to combine the 2 designs if possible. Because each design has different drawbacks, Bedini's high rpm low torque and Newman's low rpm high torque could go midway for a nice mid class magnetic motor running on vapors... ::)
Your inputs are welcomed,
Michel
Quote from: Michelinho on August 10, 2008, 07:47:22 PM
Hi Futuristic,
We know what is a Newman Motor, it is we are trying to combine the 2 designs if possible. Because each design has different drawbacks, Bedini's high rpm low torque and Newman's low rpm high torque could go midway for a nice mid class magnetic motor running on vapors... ::)
Your inputs are welcomed,
Michel
The picture posted already looks like a hybrid Newman and Bedini motor. The Bedini motor looks like a wheel with magnets on it, and just like the Newman motor it has the N-S orientation and magnets inside the coil itself. Midway is not necessarily a good idea.
If you want the best of both worlds, you will have to have voltage input found in large industrial motors but with much greater resistance in the windings with wide enough turns to house a very heavy permanent magnet.