I was reading something and it struck me finally that there is no such thing as a second law violation...if something seems to violate the second law then the energy must be coming from somewhere else...an unknown source.So the law stands whether there is overunity or not.It cannot be proven.Isn't in accurate to say that if we have knowledge of the way things work,i mean nearly exclusive knowledge of how to manipulate matter and energy,and we can improve our "engineering" doesn't it say something that we are only limited by our ignorance?In physics in general,aren't we basically conceptualizing no matter who's particular theory we are considering?I'm just saying that maybe the "law" is incorrect.What about the mind,the machine that does the experiment?The truth is all in all...mankind is headed down the wrong path and has been for a while now...and each little part including science,religion,education and others are flawed and wreckless just as we have been with this wonderful earth.We must awaken...all of us.
u r strongly right to some extent.When studying at university i had a very intersting subject about history of science.We spoke a lot about the paradigms,how they get created when there is a need to replace one and how much effort it takes.From historical point of view ,we r just in one of those paradigms.The chance is big it will be replaced soon (like Newton replaced Aristotle and so on).There is also a big discussion of we r able at any time to obtain complete knowledge.Even more interesting was discussion about proving abilities.With other words..is it possible to prove or disprove one theory,or to say which one is the correct one. We just use theory as long as it is empirically correct and try to extend it when "anomalies" occur.Example will be extending of Newton mechanics by quantum mechanics in micro scale.Before everyone believed in Newton to be applicable universally,but it was difficult to describe anomalies at micro scale or speed close to light speed.This story shows that some anomalies r still explainable in old paradigm with an "extension".This gives hope to old physicists,not to loose their status.When some crucial anomalies can't be explained,there is still much of a resist of replacing an old paradigm.It takes at least one generation of scientists before a new one will get any echo.
My personal favourite is this story:
Imagine two scientists A and B.They both have a theory about the universe.Both theories r just right and even accurate to describe any empirical event.Theory of A says that universe is unlimited.Theory of B says that universe is finite,but there exists a force X.this force makes every object(so also measuring instruments) to shrink when further from the center of the universe.In that way when we try to reach end of universe we become smaller and smaller and we r infinitely small at The Edge.Theory B gives explanation to the illusion of unlimited universe.Both theories can't be simultaneously correct,even worse we can't prove that one is wrong or true.So we have to live with the burden of not complete knowledge...
Good for observation r the new sciences as they appear.Like genetics,there r a lot of models and 'schools' and no vast paradigm exists yet.It's kind of a fight for who is right and from what books will future students learn.
If anyone is interested try to search for philosophical trends in science between years 1880-1940. constructivism, positivism, logical positivism ,nihilism.With some great names as August Comte ,Rudolf Carnap,Wittgenstein... Great lecture,i guarantee u won't get disappointed ! u won't feel lonely with your thoughts anymore neither.
quick starter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism
The difference, of course, is the fact that we now have computers, more minds than ever trained to think scientifically, and centuries of evidence and experimentation to validate the current crop of Laws of Physics.
Oh, let's not forget the fundamental mathematics that validate so much of our current worldview.
The fact is, and will remain fact, that some of our current Laws of Physics are bedrock, foundational concepts. Giving yourself permission to ignore them by coming up with some snarky pseudo-logical concoction of deliberate sophistry will not exempt you from their effects.
However, as with the notable Casimir Effect, we are discovering secondary and tertiary effects of quantum principles that can affect the way Classical physics work.
Learn classical physics and the mathematics behind every principle. Anything of worth done in the free energy world will eventually deal with Classical elements, and will have to overcome classical limitations. You can't just declare them invalid and move on.
Once you understand the concepts behind classical physics, throw yourself into the wonderful mathematics of quantum theory. Read (real) scientists work. Forget Tesla. Learn from Hawking, Einstein, Brown, Heisenberg, Planck, Feynman, et al.
If they talk about harmonic resonance, or pleiadians, or aetheric vibrations, ignore it. It's bullshit. If they talk about triangles, or egyptian batteries, or pyramids, or lizard men, ignore it. It's bullshit.
If your beliefs were offended by my last statements, then I'm sorry. That you believe in bullshit.
The only way that you can ever hope to progress in free energy is to understand how the current (mathematically valid) worldview of physics affects things like material configuration, energy transmission, and so on.
They aren't all stupid and ignorant and unwilling to explore new concepts. They're tracking down new concepts and validating the mathematical reality of theory and experimentation. They're coming up with all sorts of beautiful new advances in nanotechnology... making faster computers, invisibility technology, more efficient solar cells, etc.
There's plenty of room for unconventional thought within the bounds of reality. Start going down the road of harmonic vibratory oscillators and holy pyramid batteries, and you're never going to get anywhere. Except maybe on the front page of the Loony Gazette.
Quote from: JRowe on September 15, 2008, 06:45:51 AM
Learn classical physics and the mathematics behind every principle. Anything of worth done in the free energy world will eventually deal with Classical elements, and will have to overcome classical limitations. You can't just declare them invalid and move on.
Once you understand the concepts behind classical physics, throw yourself into the wonderful mathematics of quantum theory. Read (real) scientists work. Forget Tesla. Learn from Hawking, Einstein, Brown, Heisenberg, Planck, Feynman, et al.
There is still room for someone stumbling on a way to tap in to zero point energy, provided that's possible. Oersted did accidentally deflect the compass needle.
But after years of hoping for the accident, more and more I'm kinda doing what you say above. Last night I finished a book called Quantum Reality (I'll have to go back and reread parts) which went over proxy waves, static and dynamic attributes, what Heisenberg's uncertainty principle really is, ... It also pointed out that there are many different conventionally accepted versions of reality. Bohr believed there is no deep reality, Wheeler said it's created by observation, Bohm leans toward an undivided reality, there's the many worlds interpretation, ...
But if you want to tap zero point energy, as I do, then you need a model that has it in some potentially engineerable form. My understanding is that the standard model offers it through the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It doesn't strike me that we'll get very far with that. In searching, I found the Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) model, which accounts for things like the de Broglie wave, Coulomb's law, F=ma, relativity and others. The nice thing is that with this model, space is filled with actual waves, the source of ZPE, which may be a more engineerable form than the uncertainty principle. Sadly, there are very few people working on this model and so a lot is missing for that engineering.
So I'm kinda doing what you suggest but find the standard model a little lacking for my purposes.
Actually that same predicament exists in industry. Carver Mead found that the quantum theory in the standard model just wasn't giving him some of the help he needed in the chip manufacturing world so he came up with Collective Electrodynamics. Now, his book of that name is a widely used text in silicon valley.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle leads to a direct consequence of proven "Energy from nothing."
The Casimir Effect, which I'm sure you're familiar with, is a source of ZPE which simply requires engineering to tap. We already have the conditions necessary and the mathematics describing its function, so what we need to do is devise a machine or material which exploits the Effect.
As the experiments and mathematics of the Casimir effect have been proven, and the theory and math are based on the standard model, there's plenty of foundational work in the engineering department. What we need now is an Edison, hypothesizing, experimenting, and working hellaciously long hours until the desired result is achieved.
Quote from: JRowe on September 15, 2008, 06:21:07 PM
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle leads to a direct consequence of proven "Energy from nothing."
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by the above.
In the meantime, this is from http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html, and describes my understanding of what in the standard model led to ZPE:
"In conventional quantum physics, the origin of zero-point energy is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which states that, for a moving particle such as an electron, the more precisely one measures the position, the less exact the best possible measurement of its momentum (mass times velocity), and vice versa. The least possible uncertainty of position times momentum is specified by Planck's constant, h. A parallel uncertainty exists between measurements involving time and energy (and other so-called conjugate variables in quantum mechanics). This minimum uncertainty is not due to any correctable flaws in measurement, but rather reflects an intrinsic quantum fuzziness in the very nature of energy and matter springing from the wave nature of the various quantum fields. This leads to the concept of zero-point energy."
Quote from: JRowe on September 15, 2008, 06:21:07 PM
The Casimir Effect, which I'm sure you're familiar with, is a source of ZPE which simply requires engineering to tap. We already have the conditions necessary and the mathematics describing its function, so what we need to do is devise a machine or material which exploits the Effect.
I wouldn't say the Casimer Effect is the source of ZPE, rather it's a consequence of ZPE and two metal plates very closer together. Unless by "source of ZPE" you meant a means of tapping it, which is my understanding too.
Quote from: JRowe on September 15, 2008, 06:21:07 PM
As the experiments and mathematics of the Casimir effect have been proven, and the theory and math are based on the standard model, there's plenty of foundational work in the engineering department. What we need now is an Edison, hypothesizing, experimenting, and working hellaciously long hours until the desired result is achieved.
Correct me if my conception is wrong but I think the energy tapped by this means would be miniscule. I'm hoping for a macroscale result.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Quote from: christo4_99 on September 07, 2008, 12:04:04 AM
I was reading something and it struck me finally that there is no such thing as a second law violation...if something seems to violate the second law then the energy must be coming from somewhere else...an unknown source...
Why do you think it would be "unknown"?
A violation of the second law is not a violation of the energy conservation. The energy is coming from the heat, and heat is kinetic energy. It is just a transformation of energy.
See an example here:
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0311104
Quote from: christo4_99 on September 07, 2008, 12:04:04 AM
I was reading something and it struck me finally that there is no such thing as a second law violation...
People get very overheated about the second Law, and should remember that:
1. it has never been proved
2. it works well for heat engines, and their designers are glad of it.
3. outside heat engines, there are many infractions. All over the shop.
Paul.
it is my opinion that fitting the vastness of the universe and it's substances into a theory is an illusive proposal...math after all is just a language that at best can express that a=b there is this much area or this much distance...if the universe contained standing waves which have an affect but only if they are disturbed(which btw is what i think happened with the famous galaxie collision).the mechnisms of the unseen world are not numerals flying this way and that...they are objects and energies first "pictured" in the minds of men,a type of virtual reality if you will. how do you factor 0+0 =0 when 0 could possibly become any number fathomable suddenly with a disturbance of the standing waves.the duality of light can be explained by thinking of light as something which both moves along a line and radiates from it's relative position and keeps duplicating itself until it is absorbed by matter.we can never know exactly what something is becuase we are subjective beings.Einstein even factored this into his theory.if you take the observer out of his theories you would have to know where the universe begins and where it ends to come up with the missing part of the eqation.so reality=thought and thought =man+his mind but the latter is contained within the former.so we should be spontaneous in our imaginations about the world around us instead of being so careful and mathmatically correct...because we ourselves are part of the equation and there is nothing so critical at stake...we are part of the strangeness and wonder of the universe.
i just had a thought...relying on quantum mechanics to do anyhting in particular is like trying to make a sprocket out of soup...lol