i have seen many friction heater prototypes online.
here is a protot-type, of my design.
(you can test the science of this, by quickly rubbing your hands together.
the energy that you spent to rub your hands together, was very efficiently turned into heat.
by the friction of your skin rubbing together.)
1:
buy a big, cheap, sturdy box fan, from your local walton-trustfund-brat-outlet.
like this fan:
http://www.amazon.com/LASKO-20-In-Box-Fan/dp/B00002ND67/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224478668&sr=8-6
this model of lasko fan, has a very sturdy plastic blade.
it is also very elecricity efficient.
2:
"modify" the fans plastic grill.
so that you can "attach" a steel pot to the fan blades.
like this pot:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.breworganic.com/ProductImages/pots_and_systems/7.5-gal-pot.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.breworganic.com/browseproducts/Economy-7.5-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Pot.html&h=470&w=500&sz=27&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__rHc9Wj-oYsEjSSEmEaFuDBP6AuI=&tbnid=B9vHvbNd_Z2PpM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bpot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG
the plastic fan head is very sturdy. and could be made to support even a large pot.
but if need be, you could drill holes into the plastic fan head, and insert steel supports.
3:
attach a slightly bigger pot, to the fan case.
(i plan on attaching steel sheet supports, to this bigger outer-pot. then attaching the steel sheet supports, to the fan case).
4:
pour motor oil into the bigger outer pot.
so that the smaller inner pot rubs against the motor oil, when it spins.
sort of like the drawing at the bottom of this post.
5:
turn on the fan. and hope that the inner pot can spin fast enough, to generate enough heat.
Quote from: nitinnun on October 20, 2008, 03:10:56 AM
i have seen many friction heater prototypes online.
here is a protot-type, of my design.
(you can test the science of this, by quickly rubbing your hands together.
the energy that you spent to rub your hands together, was very efficiently turned into heat.
by the friction of your skin rubbing together.)
1:
buy a big, cheap, sturdy box fan, from your local walton-trustfund-brat-outlet.
like this fan:
http://www.amazon.com/LASKO-20-In-Box-Fan/dp/B00002ND67/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224478668&sr=8-6
this model of lasko fan, has a very sturdy plastic blade.
it is also very elecricity efficient.
2:
"modify" the fans plastic grill.
so that you can "attach" a steel pot to the fan blades.
like this pot:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.breworganic.com/ProductImages/pots_and_systems/7.5-gal-pot.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.breworganic.com/browseproducts/Economy-7.5-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Pot.html&h=470&w=500&sz=27&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__rHc9Wj-oYsEjSSEmEaFuDBP6AuI=&tbnid=B9vHvbNd_Z2PpM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bpot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG
the plastic fan head is very sturdy. and could be made to support even a large pot.
but if need be, you could drill holes into the plastic fan head, and insert steel supports.
3:
attach a slightly bigger pot, to the fan case.
(i plan on attaching steel sheet supports, to this bigger outer-pot. then attaching the steel sheet supports, to the fan case).
4:
pour motor oil into the bigger outer pot.
so that the smaller inner pot rubs against the motor oil, when it spins.
sort of like the drawing at the bottom of this post.
5:
turn on the fan. and hope that the inner pot can spin fast enough, to generate enough heat.
Hi
Do you can add a pic of your prototype and add some mesurements as well.
Thanks in advance
helmut
i just realized a few hours ago, that i could abuse common household appliances like this.
so i don't have pictures yet.
but i'm very certain that the physics behind it, will work.
i need to get a box fan.
and decide what the right size for steel pots are.
the pots need to be light enough to spin easily.
yet have enough surface area, to create enough friction, to create enough heat.
Quote from: nitinnun on October 20, 2008, 07:35:31 AM
i just realized a few hours ago, that i could abuse common household appliances like this.
so i don't have pictures yet.
but i'm very certain that the physics behind it, will work.
i need to get a box fan.
and decide what the right size for steel pots are.
the pots need to be light enough to spin easily.
yet have enough surface area, to create enough friction, to create enough heat.
nitinnun
If I remember right in another post you said you usually get the general part right but might be off on the details .
Getting something built the first time is all about the details .
No I am not British :)
Although in general the basic concepts seem sound actually gettnig everthing working together presents some problems .
If you removed the fan blade and made a " lid " for the inner pan that was strong enough to support the weight of the pan the chances of success would go up quite a bit .
The fan blade has no flat surface that it convienient to attach something to . even if you got your pan bolted on with enough accuracy to spin easily plastic that holds weight tends to " creep" it will slowly deform so it will not stay in allignment . adding heat would make the creep worse .
One detail that might make it more likely to work is to plan on not using much oil.
By this I mean design it with the inner pan SETTING inside the outer pan . Not suspended above the bottom. Just add enough oil to provide some lubrication ( maybe a teaspoon of oil at the most )
The large pan will carry the weight of the inner pan all that you would have to do is make sure the inner pan is centered well enough and attached strong enough .
Any metal to metal friction will make it work more like the heating device that uses wood for friction ...... except the metal will last along longer than the wood .
Using water in place of oil might be a possibility but would make things difficult . The water would have to be replaced at the proper rate .
gary
You know what a really good friction heater is... an automatic transmission. That's why it NEEDS a cooler to keep it from overheating. Don't believe me? Plug up your tranny cooler lines and take a 20 minute drive on the highway, you'll be sitting on the side of the road with a smoking transmission!
That's what happened to me when my external cooler plugged up. Got it working...$2100 later!
So try using transmission fluid and maybe putting some metallic filings in the oil to create more friction. I know when I change my fluid I have magnets in the pan and they're always covered in metallic filings. Hey...Just change your transmission fluid and use THAT! It already has enough metal fillings and crap in it to ruin your transmission, but perfect for a heater!! Plus you'll be doing your vehicle a favour!
Also adding a flywheel would help out the motor spinning all that mass.
The trick here of course is rigging something that produces more energy out than in. I've been following discussions and websites regarding the Frenette heater scheme and so far I haven't seen that anyone's been successful.
Easy enough to build I suppose, but one would have to do accurate measurements to see if this is really any more effective than a commercial space heater.
Quote from: yaz on October 20, 2008, 01:23:41 PM
You know what a really good friction heater is... an automatic transmission. That's why it NEEDS a cooler to keep it from overheating. Don't believe me? Plug up your tranny cooler lines and take a 20 minute drive on the highway, you'll be sitting on the side of the road with a smoking transmission!
That's what happened to me when my external cooler plugged up. Got it working...$2100 later!
So try using transmission fluid and maybe putting some metallic filings in the oil to create more friction. I know when I change my fluid I have magnets in the pan and they're always covered in metallic filings. Hey...Just change your transmission fluid and use THAT! It already has enough metal fillings and crap in it to ruin your transmission, but perfect for a heater!! Plus you'll be doing your vehicle a favour!
Also adding a flywheel would help out the motor spinning all that mass.
I am not sure if the metal particles are a good idea but transmission fluid could take the heat .....but it would also make less heat . It is low viscosity in part to limit the heat that it creates .
gary
the models i saw online, claimed to produce more heat-energy, than they took energy to run.
it is a question of having great enough friction, and light enough spinning metal.
but i am not greedy. so i will settle for a very efficient electricity to heat conversion rate.
Yeah, I like this idea, but what would burning tranny oil smell like indoors? Isn't there some sort of oil lubricant that would smell nice? If the oil was scented that would be an added bonus.
Can you make one with tropical smells, maybe coconut and sea salt? Hehehe
Quote from: resonanceman on October 20, 2008, 08:46:37 AM
nitinnun
If I remember right in another post you said you usually get the general part right but might be off on the details .
Getting something built the first time is all about the details .
No I am not British :)
Although in general the basic concepts seem sound actually gettnig everthing working together presents some problems .
If you removed the fan blade and made a " lid " for the inner pan that was strong enough to support the weight of the pan the chances of success would go up quite a bit .
The fan blade has no flat surface that it convienient to attach something to . even if you got your pan bolted on with enough accuracy to spin easily plastic that holds weight tends to " creep" it will slowly deform so it will not stay in allignment . adding heat would make the creep worse .
One detail that might make it more likely to work is to plan on not using much oil.
By this I mean design it with the inner pan SETTING inside the outer pan . Not suspended above the bottom. Just add enough oil to provide some lubrication ( maybe a teaspoon of oil at the most )
The large pan will carry the weight of the inner pan all that you would have to do is make sure the inner pan is centered well enough and attached strong enough .
Any metal to metal friction will make it work more like the heating device that uses wood for friction ...... except the metal will last along longer than the wood .
Using water in place of oil might be a possibility but would make things difficult . The water would have to be replaced at the proper rate .
gary
when i am creating new theorives, that might be true.
when i am building things, there are far less unknowns. so my efficiency is higher.
a person learns more from mistakes, than they learn from doing things "correctly".
a builder who makes 1,000 different mistakes, and learns from them, knows far more than a builder who did it "sufficiently" 1,000 times.
or at least the builder does, if they are able to learn from experience.
and their learning ability isn't limited to sheer pre-calculation, of their plans.
most of the time, i can "see" the mistake in my mind, before i make it.
and choose a better building method instead.
sometimes i see a "mistake" that i was not going to make. yet learn from it.
sometimes that mistake is a part of a revolutionary new way of building.
you could describe my building style as "rapid construction evolution".
and i have only begun to explore the possible ways, to build this friction heater.
the inner pan can be attached to the fan in MANY ways.
and not all of them have to be geologically perfect, to work great.
this is not some math problem, that has only 1 answer.
if the pan is large enough, i could secure it to both the fan head and blades.
i have an older model of that box fan, that doesn't work.
i did on autopsy on it, to get an idea of what i am working with.
that plastic fan head is VERY solid. even with weight and heat, it would take a long time for that fan head to go.
if i "reinforce" it well, it could last longer yet.
and if the fan did go, a new box fan is only $16.
the motor oil is needed.
it is thicker, so it creates more friction. the friction is what causes the heat.
the motor oil is made of carbon. it conducts the heat into the metals, then into the air. so it can warm the air.
the more surface area rubbing against motor oil, the more friction.
the higher the motor oil, the more it is supporting the inner pan too.
so that the fan head isn't taking all the weight.
the motor oil would also absorb some of "throw off" force. to keep the inner pan from wobbling too much.
the motor oil might even convert the vibrating sound energy, into a form which is less noisy.
the vibrating sound might even ADD to the electron disruptance. indirectly causing even more heat.
we DO NOT want metal grinding on metal.
that would be loud, inefficient, and would cause the inner pan to bounce around like mad.
water wouldn't have enough liscosity. it wouldn't cause enough friction.
the water is also too efficient at absorbing heat.
while the motor oil would conduct the heat to the metal around it.
the water is a poorer lubricant than motor oil too.
oh. and i could add heat sinks to the outer pan. to increase the rate that heat is diffused into the air in the house.
this would cause the outer pan to hold less heat than the inner pan.
so the outer pan would have heat diffuse into it, and away from the inner pan.
so the inner pan would stay cooler, reducing the warpage rate on the plastic fan head.
if i did it just right, i could even weld steel plates to the inside of the inner pan.
to act as heat sinks for the air inside the inner pan.
if i arranged the inner pan plates right, one row of them could force air into the inner pan, and the other row could force air out of the inner pan.
like this:
^ v
I I
I I
I I
U
the inside of the lasko's plastic fan head, could have covered with a thick layer of heat resistant epoxy.
to strengthen its shape against warpage.
epoxy is extremely tough. and would have no trouble bonding to the plastic.
instead of steel pots, i'm going to use thin steel sheeting.
the steel sheeting isn't as humorously simple as steel cooking pots.
but it is lighter, cheaper, easier to make into the desired shape and size, and much more likely to give me a 100% + efficiency.
i'm going to solder it together, with a very strong soldering iron.
(it was designed to never run for more than a few minutes at a time. or else the heat damage will destroy it.)
the bottom pot will be a steel cylinder, soldered to a flat steel square.
i might solder "heatsinks" onto the outside of the bottom pot. so that the heat goes into the air faster.
the inner pot won't even be a pot.
it will be several steel cylinders. one larger than the one inside it.
multiple cylinders will increase the surface area, for motor oil to rub on.
and hopefully prevent wobbling. because of the extra inertia, that is not wanting to change its axis of movement.
i might leave an unlevel slit on the seam of each inner cylinder.
so that each cylinder "catches" motor oil, as it spins.
exactly like a cheese shredder catches cheese.
the captured motor oil will create friction as it bounces against the surface area inside the cylinders, slides downwards against the surface area, and as one motor oil molecule collides with another motor oil molecule.
the weight of the captured motor oil inside the cylinders, might reduce cylinder wobbling.
or maybe the violently sloshing around motor oil will increase cylinder wobbling.
we will have to see.
at the center of the multi-cylinders, there might be 2 steel sheeting tubes.
one inside the other.
one steel sheeting tube attached to the cylinders, and the other attached to the outer pot.
these would prevent what little wobbling gets past the other features.
Quote from: nitinnun on October 20, 2008, 06:24:51 PM
but i am not greedy. so i will settle for a very efficient electricity to heat conversion rate.
ok i don't get it :) did u knew that for example electric water heater is about 93% efficient in turning electricity into heat?IHMO producing of heat from electricity is the smallest problem we need to solve .Other way around is much more difficult :|
i must admit i have a flawn understanding of how would a friction heater be more effective than a plain resistive wire ::)
Quote from: nitinnun on October 21, 2008, 06:18:48 AM
instead of steel pots, i'm going to use thin steel sheeting.
the steel sheeting isn't as humorously simple as steel cooking pots.
but it is lighter, cheaper, easier to make into the desired shape and size, and much more likely to give me a 100% + efficiency.
nitinnun
I hope you have some tools and experience working with sheet metal
I am pretty good at making things and I don't think I could do what you are planning without a bunch of specialized equipment .
What you have designed is in effect a disk rotor friction heater turned 90 degrees .
Using disks there is much less to worry about .
If you arn't able to make the sheet metal "pots " run true you will end up with a high efficency oil splasher rather than a heater .
gary
your belief in my project fills me with motivation.
and no, heating isn't as cheap as you seem to think it is.
i'm a natural builder of stuff in general.
its like i'm a less scientific, more intuitive grand-nephew of macgyver.
i never had trouble assembling things as a child. even when i was 6 years old, i was assembling 600 piece lego sets designed for 12 year olds.
i can built very small and intricate things.
or effective results, from odd/inferior materials.
steel sheeting is my kind of material.
the biggest problem might be getting that much metal hot enough to solder, even with a powerful soldering gun.
but if need be, i have access to a welding lab.
with very familiar mig welders, that can be turned down very low.
When I lived on the lean in Houston, all I did is fill 2 55gal drums painted black with
water in the morning and by evening, hot water. And I mean hot too. Some days I had
to do without but that's just part of it.
Believe it or not, an electric on demand system doesn't cost that much to run. Just
have to be frugal with the time it is on.
thaelin
The Friction Heater I mention in so many other posts, yep.
From what I understand this has to be almost exactly 1/8 inch space between pans,
the kind of thing you may need a machine shop to help with.
I have never been able to find pans that fit into each other with that space,
not even from different manufacturerers. It's as if they were all ordered not
to do so, by the big daddy corporate oink himself, for just this reason.
Also this thing will produce 250 degrees if done right, which could do damage
to plastic fan parts/motor above it, so you really want to do it the way it is shown in
the Eugene Perkins Friction Heater Patent., including a safe stand etc..
You know, I could use a fuel-saving heater.
@nitinum: For soldering sheet metal, you can get propane soldering irons (coppers) that get hot enough to do the job. Rivet your parts for a good mechanical connection first, then swab muriatic acid on the the parts with an acid brush. Tin your copper first with a sal ammoniac block & solder, heat up the joint and flow the solder. 50/50 solder is what to use (get triangular sticks for sheet metal, not plumber's rolls).
You can also silfloss, but that might distort your metal since it needs higher heat (at least a turbo-torch if not oxy-acet). I don't know about using mig, pots are pretty thin, you need to keep your pots from distorting (or blowing-through) or you'll run into problems when you spin them up, ballance will be an issue.
foggy gave the link to Rex Research that lists the Perkins patents.
Infinite Energy Magazine did a 9-day test on three different Frenette/Perkins heaters.
Check it out:
Rex Research - Frenette, Perkins, Pope:
Excerpts from Farm Magazine and Infinite Energy Magazine, 1978:
http://www.rexresearch.com/frenette/frenette.htm
Infinite Energy Magazine, issue 23, pp 23, 1999, index-only:
http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue23/index.html
It works just fine, but someone is hoping you read the first few paragraphs
and conclude that they concluded it doesn't work. Which reminds me I need
to see what's going on over at Rex Reserch Maybe they have one of those
new volunteer for no pay website masters who sabotage without exposing
themselves, by posting the negative first.
Kind of like magazines with free energy names and claimed agendas which
year after year say, "awww, it don't work, back to the drawing board"
when of course it does work. They don't care if some of us know they are
a Power Co. front, they only care about fooling those who still don't know.
But those guys back in 1979 were threatened with death and everything else.
stories fabricated etc,. The one I'm talking about didn't use water or a radiator,
it used oil, and that's it. And here is a working repilca!
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater.html
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 09, 2010, 04:20:45 AM
And here is a working repilca!
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater.html
OK, fair enough. What's the easiest way to get a proof of concept build going?
We want to get as close to the original spec for wall-gap (1/8") as possible without going to a machine shop or buying exotic materials.
At energetic, they used pipe and that's a good start.
So what pipe ODs & IDs telescope to the nearest 1/8" gap that we're looking for?
Common domestic pipe applications would include water, refrigerants, gases and electrical.
Of the above, the 'cheapest' pipe is EMT and the next-cheapest is Rigid, both are commonly available as electrical conduit.
What's the biggest diameter available? Conduit tops out at 4", not big enough for a real application but it might work for a prototype that could later be scaled-up if it looks promising.
How about wall-gap?
We can get pretty close with Rigid, but EMT is a bigger gap than we want.
Here's a table showing IDs and ODs for different pipe types:
http://home4c.com/conduit.htm
In this case, we're thinking about nesting 3.5" inside 4" nominal rigid conduit to see what kind of wall-gap we end up with:
ID : 4.206 (4.0" pipe)
OD : 3.971 (3.5" pipe)
GAP: ((4.206-3.971)/2)= 0.117
DSN: 0.125
DIF: (0.125-0.117)= 0.008
So it'll give a 8/1000ths bigger gap than design-spec.
That's 1/125th of an inch difference.
Is that close enough for gap-tolerance?
Is 4" (like energetic's) acceptable for prototype purposes?
What height do we make the project?
Can we substitute height for diameter to increase surface area?
Have you attempted a replication yet?
Hey Guys;
I have a simple solution for your heater build. I was going to do it myself but I am involved in too many projects at the moment.
Take any ac induction motor say 1/4 or 1/2 hp. The spacing between the rotor and the field iron is minuscule. I have an explosion proof motor with solid end plates that can be tapped for pipe fittings but you could adapt any end plates. the only thing that has to be changed is removing the windings and plugging any holes that go through the steel stator plates. You don't even have to remove the windings to do the testing. You could easily drill the armature cavitation holes to test different designs. The unit only has to be coupled to another motor to drive it. Oil could be pumped through it if you mount it horizontally or you could mount it vertically with the heater portion down in a sump.
No bearings, no machining to worry about, and a perfect rotor and housing assembly ready made.
Regards
Vince
Quote from: vince on January 09, 2010, 05:28:56 PM
...I have a simple solution for your heater build.
That's a good idea, Vince, thanks. nitinnun is the project-lead on this thread, have to see which direction the thread-owner wants to go.
Here's something I ran into a while back that is of a similar nature:
Video - cavitation heating:
http://www.printerscats.com/FUELLESS-HEATER-NO-FUEL-NO-GAS-NO-WOOD-NO-GREEN-HOUSE-GASES__yh_-DUKQ4Uw.html
Company website:
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/index.htm
I think a better solution may be to use an outer pan assembly, and an inner flap assembly where the flaps are made of sheet metal and centrifugal force causes them to contact the outer pan. Oil may then be used to lubricate the system, filled, the outer pan would radiate heat and the oil would retain it. A fan operating in the high setting would cause maximum contact, medium would be minimal and low would be none, in low setting, the fan would be radiating pre-existing heat. other settings would be used to generate and radiate heat.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 09, 2010, 08:24:21 PM
I think a better solution may be to use...an inner flap assembly where the flaps are made of sheet metal and centrifugal force causes them to contact the outer pan.
I think heat generation through paddle agitation was demonstrated before either Frenelle/Pickens or cavitation as used by Hydrodynamics Inc.
The question, in all three cases, is which of these requires the least energy input for a given amount of heat output.
Just from observation, the paddle method looks like it would require more power due to the increased surface area that is in contact with the fluid medium.
That isn't to say it would necessarily be less efficient, it might produce more heat because of that increased surface contact, too.
An A-B test using the same container-dimensions and each of the three internal agitation methods might show the most effective combination.
Again, just by way of observation, wouldn't increasing the RPM also subject the paddles shown in your diagram to more resistence from the working fluid, thereby keeping them from expanding tword rim of the container they're spinning in?
You might be able to test this by attaching sheet-metal pieces to a drill bit and spinning them (using a -BATTERY- drill-motor) in a container of water, which is much less viscous than oil, just to see what the effect would be with a load on the paddles.
(Be careful! If using water, DON'T try this with a mains-connected AC drill-motor!)
Then too, once you get the fluid spinning, it might not present the same impediment to your flaps as when you first started the spin.
I'm guessing you'd have some vortices coming off the ends of your flaps as they rotated, too, so that might also keep you from expanding out all the way.
You have a good idea to try though.
.
The most efficient method is the smooth bore 1/8" oil gap,
you could spin it all night with gears and a hanging weight.
A wider diameter will work at speeds as low as 70 RPM.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 10, 2010, 12:17:09 AM
The most efficient method is the smooth bore 1/8" oil gap,
you could spin it all night with gears and a hanging weight.
A wider diameter will work at speeds as low as 70 RPM.
Wouldnd't it be easier to just bore wholes in it like a cavitation heater... you could even use sheet metals and a ball-ended stamp to create indentations. Come to think of it, I have the tools to do this, I might as well try it. I could make the rotor out of sheet metal and fill it with plaster, the stuff seems strong enough.
Fog
Stainless steel dog watering bowls with a plate to fill the extra gap in the bottom because it will be more then 1/8th gap in the bottom. A bearing from a roller blade wheel or skate board wheel for the center. May need holes in the bottom if the oil slings out of the two bowls to let it circulate back between the two bowls. If it proves to be worth playing with further make the bowls counter rotate to increase speed between the two bowls with out using a faster motor.
One central shaft can turn a counter shaft if the counter shaft is sml tube fit over the central shaft with a friction wheel to a short axle with another friction wheel touching the outer shaft for the opposite bowl.
Dog bowls are cheap and easy to work with. Some of them are pretty large. Chances are you can put that together with out much more then some pocket change a crying child and a pissed off dog.
Better than dog bowls are stainless steel waste baskets
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7978345#ShortReviewTitleBar
Those are actually pretty large I hear.
They fit right inside each other, no need for custom fab.
"space gap at bottom" can probably be left alone, I see no harm in it.
In fact some Brass B-Bs from a BB gun, in the bottom, might be the
perfect spacer setting your entire 1/8" inch all around, though might
be a little noisey? Just one welded to exact center of outer shell
floor would make a quite pivot point for inner shell, or just used as a
gauge while you weld shaft, if going that route.
Or a round head screw through the bottom up into your spin shaft
would also act as a spacer, though you mighthave to grind it down
a little bit if it exceeds 1/8" inch. With heat tolerant rubber washers
or some type of pipe glue, it should be leak proof.
There might be a lip at the bottom of these cans which could be dealt with
by adjusting your spacer size, might have to cut it to tabs & hammer 'em over,
but the 1/8" space on the sides is more important than space at the bottom.
Cavitation holes is an entirely different topic/method/ & invention,
It uses water, not oil, and requires much more power to operate as
it actually beats the water into a frensy, that takes muscle.
Put it this way, what would slide on ice easier,...
a skate blade? or a cheese grater?
What would slide on water/oil easier...
A surfboard, or a tennis racquet?
Well than, which will be using less energy to operate?
These smooth slide operations can be turned with a tiny toy motor.
Even with wind-up clockwork guts, done right
A coil spring, gears, and a governor.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 10, 2010, 08:01:14 PM
Better than dog bowls are stainless steel waste baskets
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7978345#ShortReviewTitleBar
Good find...
Quote"space gap at bottom" can probably be left alone,
Don't know what the 'taper' is from the description, but here's a couple of examples that show two different tapers. Either way, it doesn't look like you have any issues with 'not enough' space at the bottom:
You can 'dimple' the sides in places you deem appropriate, by drilling a dolly-block (just a piece of steel or aluminum) only as far as the bit-taper goes (don't get into the flutes) then take a bit of the same size as the one you drilled the block with, put it in a vise and grind the point down so it's a little flattened (or you can use a bench-grinder, use vice-grips).
Try putting a scrap piece of sheet metal over the hole and tapping the rounded drill-bit on the metal to try a test-dimple, if it's too deep, keep taking down the bit, little by little, until the dimple mikes-out at 1/8".
Once the jig is set, you can dimple your inner rotator from the inside-out in as many places as you see fit and you'll have exactly the same stand-off all the way around without causing any balance issues from adding arbitrary weights, like screws. No leaks, glue or solder, either.
Try a 12" steel grade-stake (form-stake) for a dolly.
I think the dimples could be a good idea for any whom have no access to a good work shop,
it is a quick fix spacer for ballance, though might make some noise.
The reason I think could work is because these do not have to go very fast,
the wider the diameter, the less revolutions it takes to still function.
These I'm told at this diameter can actually work at 70 RPM.
So if you get a motor controller or slower motor, the dimples shouldn't
create a mess, however, they will created some turbulance in the space
other than intended by design, and I don't know what effect that will have.
if any.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 10, 2010, 11:15:28 PM
I think the dimples could be a good idea for any whom have no access to a good work shop,
it is a quick fix spacer for ballance, though might make some noise...however, they will created some turbulance in the space other than intended by design, and I don't know what effect that will have.
Being immersed in lubricant, there might not be too much additional friction or noise, but it will add a contact area to the outer drum, might be good enough for some test-runs, certainly nothing permanent.
The main advantage is it insures that the gap is exact and the inner drum is centered, something that might not be easy to accomplish with a shaft alone on material this light.
No way to know how 'round' these items are, either, they are just 'wastebaskets', after all.
I would also like to mention that there are different grades of motor oil: each with it's own viscosity rating, perhaps one would work better than another. Perhaps even used motor oil?
Mineral oil infused with fine wood ash may also be useful.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 11, 2010, 12:14:29 AM
Mineral oil infused with fine wood ash may also be useful.
Might be, it's hard to guess. I've seen hydrolic fluid, motor oil and water all mentioned in connection with this device. It'll probably take trial and error to see if one works better than another.
Hey I found the specs on the Wallmart wastebaskets, they're no bigger than any other, they are bathroom size, 11" high which they fail to mention in big bold type, and only sell it through their online store, not in their walk-in stores, so in that case i found one for half their price at Bed, Bath & Beyond.
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=15056711
It can't be much smaller than the 11" Wallmart one.
Another concern is the shape, though it allows ease of assembly, when I give it more thought, that shape will also send any turbulance upward in the form of slop over, easier than vertical pipe, if one of the trash cans is not perfectly round. But, a catch pan and few other trick will no doubt help deal with it as well as prevent it.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 11, 2010, 02:28:29 AM
Hey I found the specs on the Wallmart wastebaskets, they're no bigger than any other, they are bathroom size, 11" high which they fail to mention in big bold type
Right...look in the upper left of that drawing I posted, I copied the specs from their web-page, that's how I knew how big to make it in CAD.
Quotehttp://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=15056711
Be nice if they'd give some dimensions, huh?
Quote...if one of the trash cans is not perfectly round. But, a catch pan and few other trick will no doubt help deal with it as well as prevent it.
You can bring it into round with an insert, the wrapper will conform exactly to the shape of the insert.
Set your dividers or trammels to less than the radius of the top, mark a point on your material for the center (1/8" hole will work), swing your dividers from the mark and cut out the round.
Mark a line around the inside of the basket, make a gauge you can drag along the top-rim and score a mark on the inside (you need this reference to make sure your insert sits 'level' with respect to the wrapper).
If it wasn't round before, it will be after you install the insert.
But...before you install it, it'd be a good idea to spin-balance the insert (that's why you drilled-out that center-mark).
You kinda have to do this anyway if you're planning on a shaft, you're gonna need two points on the rotator to connect the shaft to.
Oh, so you did (can specs in drawing)
Well I was looking at your dimples.
er? that's, ..nevermind.