Some friend of mine build very nice tube-style
Meyer WFCs and forced me to build a control
unit. (.........)
Well, I made a switch pcb with an avr uC for pulse
control, a galvanic decoubled driver stage with 6 cmos
gates in parallel and 4 Mosfets as switcher in parallel.
(at this point in time I thought Rds_ON will be of importance)
The first step was to pulse the water cells with this switcher,
coupling the watercell with a diode.
Well, lots of bubbles and lots of amps - looks quite impressing -
if you forget about the amps.
The cells got passivated very carefully - and the water cells keep
the charge up to a minute without serious discharge.
On using coil to drive the wfc -I found out that driving the circuit with
HV FETS improves the usable transformed(to that later) Back EMF.
Because no energy is consumed by the breakdown (which was around
150V for the first fets) - I got now nice 1kV back emf pulses.
The HV fets have up to 4 Ohms Rds_ON, but I get this 1kV pulses
even with 4 Volts swiching voltage (which is somehow impressing).
Well, the VIC
I didn´t stick to the original VIC design - just wanted to produce something
similar to investigate the operation.
I took a 1cm dia, 5cm long ferrite (ur = 15?).
Put on 3 layers of bifilar "choke" on it - L around 350uH, 1nF coupling
between (measured with khz).
On top of that 1.75 layers of bifilar primary/secondary winding.
I used 0.5mm copper wire.
This gives 150uH and 333nF coupling.
What I see are properly transformed (by 2.5) pulses and _HEAVY_
back-EMF pulses with 1kV.
I tested that with 600V 40uF Cap as load - reached immediatly 500V
with _4Volts_ Input.....
Whats interesting ist the behaviour of the VIC without load.....
As long as you short circuit a winding, the core is heavily damped,
and the primary coil "looks" quite normal on the scope on pulsing,
Not shorted - you get a short back EMF to 1kVpulse, this goes down after the
pulse immediate to a -300V pulse, ends up at zero - and after some timeconstant
(doesnt rely on pulse frequency - there is a second back EMF pulse, with oscillating
fade out.
My conclusions are that I think - the back-EMF is very important on the Meyer circuits,
that the so called "pulse doubling" behaviour is caused by the VIC impedance relations,
and this should match the operating frequency as well as the WFC /LC resonance
frequency - and eventually needs some relation to the mechanical resonance of the
WFC outer tube.
What concerns the operation - I think that the back emf spikes are stored by the
wfc and feed a resonance between wfc-c and choke l. The adjustable bottom choke and
the special connection to the tubes are used to match the inpedance to get as much
energy as possible into the wfc.
Any suggestions / vic descriptions welcome.
BTW: After studying lots of Meyer stuff - I just look at the
pictures - everything else is fuzzy.
Hi!
Maybe I do not have the expertize you need. But there is a waterspark that uses high voltage that help you with some ideas on the schematics the post http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5024.0
Another good place to look for information about hydrolisis is the index http://www.overunity.com/index.php
Jesus
Thanks for you suggestions,
I think there is no shared technology with the waterspark
projects.
rgds.
I had the idea to shift the emf pulse voltage up to some kV using
multiple, synchronous switched HV mosfets in series.
...
Hey fritz,
sounds like you're doing good work. What chip are you using for your frequency generator?
Also, have you considered applying the negative voltage back-emf to the negative electrode?
Quote from: Farlander on October 27, 2008, 03:24:09 PM
Hey fritz,
sounds like you're doing good work. What chip are you using for your frequency generator?
For "tuning in" I use a pre-built DDS Generator (uses Analog Device Chip) which is capable
of 0.1 to 20MHz.
I use this clock as external clock for my attiny26 - which does 2/3 gated 1/3 pulsed fixed
so far.
Finally the attiny should run on its own using internal rc oscillator - and has additional some
analog in´s with a/d to control the stuff in a closed loop.
Quote from: Farlander on October 27, 2008, 03:24:09 PM
Also, have you considered applying the negative voltage back-emf to the negative electrode?
What I´ve described happens with only primary connected.
If connected as VIC - there is only one pulse and one back emf per cycle.
Today I ordererd nice diodes and mosfets capable of 1500V reverse /ds voltage -
another problem are my oscilloscope probes - killed already one due to high voltage,
maybe buying some cheap ones or have to buy expensive Tek 20kv probe.....
Next time will post some scope shots (need 1.44Meg disks for my scope to export)
and a photo of my vic.
rgds.
I have no formal education in electronics. Bear with me!
I've been studying the Meyer designs for about a year, but haven't tried to build one. Anyway I just built a John Bedini SSG motor which uses the back EMF spike to charge a 2nd battery. During this process, I noticed that if I placed an extra inductor coil between the 1st and 2nd battery, I get DOUBLE the voltage. If I add 2 inductors between the batteries I end up with about 30 times more voltage than I started with! I was able to start out with 50 volt spikes, and bring it all the way up to 1500 volt spikes by simply placing 2 small coils of wire in between the charging batteries.
I came up with a theory. I am new to advanced electronic circuits, and I have never studied back EMF until a few weeks ago. But here is my take on it.
The way I have my circuit I have found that between the negative inductor and the positive inductor coil, I get 1500 volts. If you notice, Stan Meyer's VIC circuit has a positive inductor and a negative inductor wound on the same core (bifilar). Well I did the same thing for my experiment, just not bifilar. I used two coils, one on the positive side of the battery and one on the negative. When I do this, I always get DOUBLE the voltage from the back EMF spike. I am NOT talking about voltage from a transformer. I am multiplying the power of the back EMF spikes by using two inductors. These inductors aren't even on the same core and I am doubling voltage.
On my Bedini motor circuit, it looks very similar to part of the Meyer VIC circuit, except that one of the inductors is being used to drive a little motor wheel. The motor wheel generates power which signals a transistor to turn the two inductors on and off! What is funny is that I am creating 1500 volts potential, but after the power goes into my batteries and comes out the other side, it almost doesn't register as more than a 2 volt spike. I am creating high voltage fields between the two inductors because the inductors are limiting current thereby multiplying the voltage spike.
The INDUCTORS are the key to the increasing voltage, obviously. Meyer said in one of his patents that if you want to increase power to the WFC, you simply add more inductors in series. As I've noticed, by adding a single extra inductor in series, I went from 925 volts to 1500 volts. This was in my own terrible experiment using two totally different mismatched inductors on air cores (not even bifilar). I can't imagine what would happen if you used like 10 inductor coils would in series.
I will begin making my Meyer VIC circuit soon. I'm going to experiment because I have a lot to learn. Perhaps you can give me some pointers if I need them!
(example diagram).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fpersonal%2FBedini_w_bifilar.gif&hash=592945d4bcded71470f9ee243b03d57c94fa7178)
Thanks!
;D
Hi !
Using inductors in series (on the same core or bifilar) is a nice way to create high voltage pulses (caused by the back-EMF).
The issue with bifilar is, that it reduces the effect of
parasitic capacity between each winding.
A "normal" (unloaded) coil has oscillating decaying back EMF - where the oscillation is between the inductance and the internal parasitic capacity. This oscillation causes losses because of the copper resistance (we dont need that).
This oscillation is reduced - additional by having both choke sides bifilar - they are "geared" by the parasitic capacity.
The first experiences I had was - that a good setup is essential - if you want to measure and optimize things.
Use good caps and ferrite beads for the power lines,
make connections as short as possible and don´t span loops -
means keep (+/-)combination of cables in close lines (or use twisted cable).
Well I got about 2kV with no WFC connected - with WFC I get up to 200V with distilled water and 60V with tap water.
-not good-
I can see a minor stepchargin effect - but it looks like I need higher energy pulses.
Additionally - the connections for the WFC are too long inside. If you want to get hard hv pulses in - you need a matched low impedance connection here.
As Meyer is using good isolated wires from the tubes to outside - and uses adjustable negative part of choke - he matches the impedance.
Another thing is - once you discharge the EMF into the WFC - you don´t want the energy (pulse) to be sucked back - this can only be accomplished by really high inductive choke. Another good thing is that with this high inductive - and also high resistive(some thousand windings - 11kOhm as stated somewhere) - its possible to have a high stepchargin voltage.....
I was wondering a lot how Meyer built his coils - by using very thin wire and lots of windings.
To reach 10kOhms with 0.1mm dia copper wire (1m=2.2 Ohms) -
4 kilometers
I would need 143.000 turns on 10mm dia core.........,
if you use "steel" wire with specific resistivity around 10 times higher - only 14.000 turns would be enough - 400m long wire.
This small calculations shows the importance of using resistive wire.
Maybe I´ll look for some surplus telecom relays - they
often have coils with some thousand windings - to start with.
rgds.
To sum it up:
You charge the field in the core via low inductance, low resistance, primary coil. The number of turns/current/frequency should be optimized in a way that the core is energized up to its max rated flux.
In the discharge cycle (back-emf) this collapsing flux induces lots of voltage in the secondary+bifilar choke.
Due to the high parasitic coupling between upper and lower choke - and the high wire resistance - you get a low impedance pulse current towards the WFC which cannot be reflected cos of the high inductivity of the chokes.
The DC resistance of the coils is higher than the WFC self discharge resistance - which enables the step chargin effect.
hmmm.
QuoteFor "tuning in" I use a pre-built DDS Generator (uses Analog Device Chip) which is capable
of 0.1 to 20MHz.
100kHz is too fast.
I'd say go for 20kV, like meyer did. I believe ignition coils can deliver 20kV, maybe it works when you connect such a coil to a bifilar.
cool topic, good luck.
Great information and insight. Since this is new to me, my ability to visualize the back EMF is a bit clouded. I understand the principles, but more learning is necessary.
Ok, so I heard that Stan Meyer used 4000 feet of stainless steel wire (very small diameter). That is an incredible amount of wire. Stainless Steel is a poor conductor compared to copper right? So that explains the high resistance, but also high inductance all at once without a million. That is a lot of wire, too much to hand wind that's for sure.
Anyway I just bought 20 gauge wire, 1050 feet of it. I was thinking of buying another spool and winding those together BIFILAR to use as a my choke coil.
I am a bit confused about which direction the back EMF goes when you collapse the magnetic field and release current. In my experience, when I release the energy from a coil, the energy travels toward the ground (except that when you disconnect the ground wire) the energy has nowhere to travel, so on some circuits the back EMF is not harnessed at all.
I took a coil with positive north, and negative south pole (bottom) and when I release the ground wire connection from the coil, the EMF spike comes from the negative wire traveling out of the of the South pole. You can't use this power for anything since the EMF spike is not attached to anything (unless you hook it up to a secondary battery or a capacitor) Does this sound right?
The direction of current doesnt change. This is the reason why the back-EMF is always negative (the opposite) to the voltage you used to energize the coil.
rgds.
(thats difficult to explain)
Good info! That makes sense!
I found this, just wanted to share to see if it has any value. Apparently the concept is from 1913.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FSelf_Powering_WFC_Resonator.gif&hash=a6c5df15106350371198f8b8980289a3be3ffacb)
Also found this.
This is what Stanley Meyer says in one of his patents on the VIC.
"In terms of Component Reactance, Inductors should always be larger than Capacitor of Figure (7-2) in order to maximize amp restriction to enhance "Voltage Deflection" "
After experimenting with a bifilar inductor and then adding more inductors in series, and getting 7 times more voltage that I started with on a small DC motor that uses pulsed DC I know they are big deal.
It seems obvious to me, though I don't have the math skills to prove it, that you need large inductors and a very small water capacitor to start with. BUT*** the replications appear to ignore Meyer's advice and they use a tiny worthless set of inductors with very little resistance (too large of wires and not enough inductance). He specifically says to use "resistive wire" (stainless steel) for the inductors and that they need to be LARGE while the water cell should be small. It seems that people are designing and replicating these water fuel cells partially incorrect?
Just some thoughts, I could be totally wrong.
Quote from: supermuble on November 06, 2008, 03:09:11 PM
"In terms of Component Reactance, Inductors should always be larger than Capacitor of Figure (7-2) in order to maximize amp restriction to enhance "Voltage Deflection" "
Component Reactance:
====================
This is the imaginary part of complex resistance
from a capacitor or inductor. (@ a certain frequency !!!)
for cap: Xc = 1/(w*C)
Xc = reactance
w = 2 * pi * frequency
C = capacity
for coil: XL = w*L
Xl = reactance
L = inductivity
Conclusion:
This is the typical Meyer glibberish (....)
Meyer states that the WFC should be operated in electrical
resonance. This means that for such resonance Xc = Xl.
This is valid for every LC oscillation.
It is clear that Xl >> Xc _AND_ Xl = Xc isnt possible.
Even if Meyer meant inductivity instead of ind. reactance
it makes no sense cos you cannot compare henries with
farads.
If Meyer would have specified that the resonance frequency
should be very low - this would give some sense - because
it would end up with very big Ls.....
And I dont want to raise my word about amp restriction
and voltage deflection in this connex (;-))))) lol)
He definitely doesnt mean the physical size of the
involved components.
Quote from: supermuble on November 06, 2008, 03:09:11 PM
It seems obvious to me, though I don't have the math skills to prove it, that you need large inductors and a very small water capacitor to start with.
The clue is that the combination of high inductivity
with resistive wire gives a coil with high
resistance for DC. This is a very lousy coil,
normally you want the opposite.
The point is that you charge the vic with the "fast"
primary coil - and discharge it with "slow" sec, choke.
Fast/slow is not relevant for back emf - so you have the
HV back-emf spike - which loads the WFC, with very less discharge during the pause ....
Quote from: supermuble on November 06, 2008, 03:09:11 PM
BUT*** the replications appear to ignore Meyer's advice and they use a tiny worthless set of inductors with very little resistance (too large of wires and not enough inductance). He specifically says to use "resistive wire" (stainless steel) for the inductors and that they need to be LARGE while the water cell should be small. It seems that people are designing and replicating these water fuel cells partially incorrect?
Replicating pretty undocumented things without any theory
or systematic approach is wasted time for me....
Right now I think about different designs _without_ huge
coils and resistive wire. This is lots of effort - and I
think there are easier ways to achieve amp restriction and
voltage deflection. LOL!!!!!
The schematic you posted is quite nice -
At least I think it is easier to start with
and get a feeling/ grip on the involved parts.
rgds.
is there any way you would be able to post a visual schematic of where you are in the process?
im very interested in your understanding of the vic.
i don't understand why meyers give resonant frequencies when there is a diode on the vic.....it cannot and will not resonate....i have tried this.....it completely cuts votlage off from rising to that of the input voltage......he gives all the equations clearly showing is a valuable part to making the wfc work correctly.....yet it DOESN'T RESONATE WITH A DIODE.
Can I make this all a little more confusing? The original demo cell had no PWM or chokes. Stan did not use SS wire in his setups. He only mentions it in patents for a security measure. The SS wire is not required. Yes you can get resonance with a diode in the circuit by self resonating the coil/s. Here again are the drawings for the demo cell setup which in my opinion is much easier to understand and put together.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg232.imageshack.us%2Fimg232%2F1945%2Fstansrotaryyb5.jpg&hash=c70f91ec03e8219d3e28899e4268056f5f0bdc54) (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stansrotaryyb5.jpg)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg61.imageshack.us%2Fimg61%2F7083%2Fdemocelljf5.jpg&hash=7dbb1f7713e0dca291e7db2da6f015264ae6d707) (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=democelljf5.jpg)
Fritz, I like your way of thinking. I don't believe in following the leader. Our entire society is failing because of this ridiculous mentality. Thinking outside the box is necessary, even if it goes against the grain and makes no sense to anyone else. Even when everyone says your wrong, that doesn't change the truth. Keep pursuing your alternative ideas because you sound very knowledgeable about electronics. ;D
I am going to learn about inductors because I need to learn more.
I have an automotive car coil. I have tested a car ignition coil and it won't even put forth a spark across a 1/16" air gap when pulsing it with DC 12 volts. I'm guessing it is around 10 times weaker without using a capacitor to discharge it. The rapid discharge on the negative side of the coil obviously creates the huge spark. When I hook the same coil to a spark module, I get a 1" long spark in open air that is loud and blue. Anyway my point is, I might be able to use this car coil as a transformer, so long as I don't use a capacitor to discharge the coil. It should lower the output dramatically and I can still produce enough power by reducing the voltage to 10 volts input. It may or may not work at all, but it will be good to experiment with.
My plan is to try to use some "off the shelf" components to achieve over-unity electrolysis so it can be easily replicated. It won't be the correct setup, but it could help other people in their efforts to prove that water is a viable FUEL.
Yes, please keep us updated on your knowledge of the VIC, even if it is your own independent design. If you are willing to share (unlike Meyer) :D
the rotary is different from the vic method.....do not confuse them......it's like a bicycle compared to a motorcycle.....they are different but contain the same ideas.
I don't understand the alternator diagram. But I do have a brand new Dodge alternator that has never even been used. I also have a 1HP electric motor that is not capacitor start. I want to put the two together. But first, I need to understand the modifications necessary to the alternator.
Actually the alternator is 3 VIC's in one. But without the chokes. All the alternator needs done is the voltage regulation parts taken out and suitable diodes used. I found the Delco-Remy alternators are the easiest to modify and work with.
Quote from: kinesisfilms on November 06, 2008, 08:19:47 PM
is there any way you would be able to post a visual schematic of where you are in the process?
im very interested in your understanding of the vic.
i don't understand why meyers give resonant frequencies when there is a diode on the vic.....it cannot and will not resonate....i have tried this.....it completely cuts votlage off from rising to that of the input voltage......he gives all the equations clearly showing is a valuable part to making the wfc work correctly.....yet it DOESN'T RESONATE WITH A DIODE.
I think that it would resonate using high resistive coil - because in that case - the parasitic coupling between both chokes would have less reactance than the secondary/diode path. (so there is a sidepath to the diode)
It would be still tricky to get a useful resonance with those uF capacitor and such Henry coil.
Quote from: kinesisfilms on November 06, 2008, 08:19:47 PM
is there any way you would be able to post a visual schematic of where you are in the process?
My scanner is broken / have to repair it. - hope to have it soon - can post that.
The only real diagram of a choke besides vague circuit descriptions along with light illustrations other than this diagram below. What it looks like to me is the coil is wound in a resistive non-inductive type winding where the flow of current is in opposite directions canceling out the magnetic field. If this is the case, why use a core? I have seen this style wind in other devices like Tesla coils but not multi-layered like Stan's as shown in the "Independent Study". I wouldn't even think you could get a step charging effect with such a coil. Does a non-inductive coil cause a voltage drop like a resistor does?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg237.imageshack.us%2Fimg237%2F6185%2Fstansvicfw6.jpg&hash=cfec7d7a7dc4b659aa6d97ed3a02109dc9f34565) (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stansvicfw6.jpg)
Quote from: supermuble on November 06, 2008, 09:52:11 PM
I have an automotive car coil. I have tested a car ignition coil and it won't even put forth a spark across a 1/16" air gap when pulsing it with DC 12 volts. I'm guessing it is around 10 times weaker without using a capacitor to discharge it. The rapid discharge on the negative side of the coil obviously creates the huge spark. When I hook the same coil to a spark module, I get a 1" long spark in open air that is loud and blue. Anyway my point is, I might be able to use this car coil as a transformer, so long as I don't use a capacitor to discharge the coil. It should lower the output dramatically and I can still produce enough power by reducing the voltage to 10 volts input. It may or may not work at all, but it will be good to experiment with.
An ignition coil uses back-emf for firing.
As already laid out - the coil is charged (some energy in)
and wants to keep its current (current induces magnetic field - magnetic field induces current) - like an inertia.
If you think about mechanics - braking soft means less forces - braking (against wall) - high energy.
Same with back emf. The faster you turn off the current in the coil from Imax to 0 - the higher voltage you get.
Electronic ignition can turn off way faster than ignition with breaker points (little spark, plasma).
I have seen some day an ignition with breaker points which "formally" functioned - but the way on how the current was switched off was so "soft" - that there was pretty less hv comming out.....
conclusion/fact: Top back-emf voltage depends on coil _AND_ time (speed) of switching off.
This is the reason why you should use _FAST_ diodes and _FAST_ mosfets and _FAST_ switches if you want to maximize back-emf.
Quote from: HeairBear on November 07, 2008, 02:55:45 AM
The only real diagram of a choke besides vague circuit descriptions along with light illustrations other than this diagram below. What it looks like to me is the coil is wound in a resistive non-inductive type winding where the flow of current is in opposite directions canceling out the magnetic field. If this is the case, why use a core? I have seen this style wind in other devices like Tesla coils but not multi-layered like Stan's as shown in the "Independent Study". I wouldn't even think you could get a step charging effect with such a coil. Does a non-inductive coil cause a voltage drop like a resistor does?
I would say the compensation of the magnetic field (non-inductive) will only work if both bifilar coils "see" the same voltage (at the same time) - means carry the same current (at the same time).
This would only work if the coils are connected with 0 ohms at both sides.
In this case you have the WFC in series - even if there is the same current at the same time - there is a different voltage on both coils (at the same time).
->The (overall) inductance of the coil depends on the impedance of the WFC. If you short-circuit the WFC - no inductance (canceling) (...)
So there is an effective (very high - depends on length) inductivity - and as long as the energy you pulse in is higher than the energy which drains out - there will be a stepchargin effect.
@HeairBear (Hi !)
Do you have the picture you posted from the cluster array in a better resolution - or can post a link ?
rgds.
Quote from: fritz on November 07, 2008, 04:16:55 AM
I would say the compensation of the magnetic field (non-inductive) will only work if both bifilar coils "see" the same voltage (at the same time) - means carry the same current (at the same time).
This would only work if the coils are connected with 0 ohms at both sides.
In this case you have the WFC in series - even if there is the same current at the same time - there is a different voltage on both coils (at the same time).
->The (overall) inductance of the coil depends on the impedance of the WFC. If you short-circuit the WFC - no inductance (canceling) (...)
So there is an effective (very high - depends on length) inductivity - and as long as the energy you pulse in is higher than the energy which drains out - there will be a stepchargin effect.
-> that was bullshit from my side....
Thats a weired setup -
If you assume that the coupling between the 2 coils
isn´t perfect - that´s still a method of having
high resistance and less inductivity.
In this setup - there is no back-emf used. The choke is just limiting the current on turning on - if you would have such 10.000 turn coil - the current would be too low.
By having the coil partly compensated -you have less inductivity (current may rise faster) and lots of resistance.
The problem with that circuits is - that such bifilar coils should be seen as "transmission lines" - the models and understanding of transformers and ideal coils - is only a showstopper on understanding these things.
Here is the link for the "Independent Study"... http://aquapulser.com/docs/independent.pdf
All the pics I posted are from this document. I hope you find it useful.
I had the idea of using a 20-35kv car coil for the step up transformer. On a car ignition the spark is created via back EMF. The spark its self is actually only back EMF. If you put AC voltage or DC voltage into the coil, the back EMF spike is not created in the secondary coil and you don't get anything close to 20,000 volts, in fact, the spark won't even jump through open air. The automotive coil only works if you have a condenser. Anyway I don't know if this is what Meyer used.
So I pulsed 20kv back EMF into a bifilar coil with an air core. I pulsed the car coil with 12 volts, 25 hz. I put a 1000v block diode on the positive post of the coil. I used two spoons for the electrodes. Well it made hydrogen. I got a small step charge effect using 50% duty cycle. Some curious things are that the step charge looked backwards on the scope, it seemed to start high and then go down?
Anyway:
I destroyed my computer sound card. I was feeding a car audio amplifier, and from the car amplifer I was feeding an automotive spark module. I have done it a lot without failure, but this time I accidentally took one of the wires off and I got 20,000 volts that had nowhere to go, so it jumped to speaker wire feeding my car amplifier, which then in turn went back into my sound card. I am lucky my computer even works. My sound card barely plays music, it is muddled with static.
I also burned up my Oscilliscope because when the wires came loose, the voltage jumped to one of the wires on the scope.
So I lost my computer sound card, and my $200 scope. I learned the hard way so you guys don't have to. I am new to electronics, and I should have known better. My only advice.... DO NOT use alligator clips with 20,000 volts!!!!!!! Solder all the wires and make sure they are PERMANENT... A loose wire with 20KV is NOT safe! ha ha :o
..... there is an ignition coil on my bench.....
but I stopped experimenting after I had some accident .....
- only dead scope probe -
There are nice HV probes from 500-1000 bucks...... but
thats too much now.
Will hook up the ignition coil - my setup´s better now - and will use
some almost-dead scope.
Reverse step charge effect ?
If you used a pulse train - than the frequency was too high....
If the coil has not enough time to releas all energy on a pulse -
the next charging happens on top of the old flux - means that
the flux variation is smaller than possible - every consecutive
pulse charges with less energy until the coil is saturated.
Only the first pulse reaches maximum energy.
(remote analysis)
rgds.
Quote from: supermuble on November 07, 2008, 11:14:53 AM
I had the idea of using a 20-35kv car coil for the step up transformer. On a car ignition the spark is created via back EMF. The spark its self is actually only back EMF. If you put AC voltage or DC voltage into the coil, the back EMF spike is not created in the secondary coil and you don't get anything close to 20,000 volts, in fact, the spark won't even jump through open air. The automotive coil only works if you have a condenser. Anyway I don't know if this is what Meyer used.
So I pulsed 20kv back EMF into a bifilar coil with an air core. I pulsed the car coil with 12 volts, 25 hz. I put a 1000v block diode on the positive post of the coil. I used two spoons for the electrodes. Well it made hydrogen. I got a small step charge effect using 50% duty cycle. Some curious things are that the step charge looked backwards on the scope, it seemed to start high and then go down?
Anyway:
I destroyed my computer sound card. I was feeding a car audio amplifier, and from the car amplifer I was feeding an automotive spark module. I have done it a lot without failure, but this time I accidentally took one of the wires off and I got 20,000 volts that had nowhere to go, so it jumped to speaker wire feeding my car amplifier, which then in turn went back into my sound card. I am lucky my computer even works. My sound card barely plays music, it is muddled with static.
I also burned up my Oscilliscope because when the wires came loose, the voltage jumped to one of the wires on the scope.
So I lost my computer sound card, and my $200 scope. I learned the hard way so you guys don't have to. I am new to electronics, and I should have known better. My only advice.... DO NOT use alligator clips with 20,000 volts!!!!!!! Solder all the wires and make sure they are PERMANENT... A loose wire with 20KV is NOT safe! ha ha :o
your not step charging! when i first started this happened to me.....if you want to see what step charging is just take that 50 percent duty cycle and run it through a bridge recitifier to get a full wave rectified signal....then look at your oscope.....you will have the correct wave form.....do this so you can understand step charging......
Hehe....
Hooked up an ignition coil to my pulser setup, pulsed wtih 40Volts
and got _N I C E_ 5cm sparks -> thats around _50kV_.
After 10 seconds - something died - hopefully only a spontaneous
flash corruption in my controller - but anyway 5cm sparks is
quite impressing...
rgds.
Quote from: fritz on November 09, 2008, 05:59:32 AM
Hehe....
Hooked up an ignition coil to my pulser setup, pulsed wtih 40Volts
and got _N I C E_ 5cm sparks -> thats around _50kV_.
After 10 seconds - something died - hopefully only a spontaneous
flash corruption in my controller - but anyway 5cm sparks is
quite impressing...
rgds.
Cool, that is what I suggested before.
Show us your schematics, maybe we can figure out why it dies.
Quote from: supermuble on November 06, 2008, 10:26:58 AM
I found this, just wanted to share to see if it has any value. Apparently the concept is from 1913.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FSelf_Powering_WFC_Resonator.gif&hash=a6c5df15106350371198f8b8980289a3be3ffacb)
Great, managed to find the original patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=nzdNAAAAEBAJ
Ok so I was not step charging. But what does this mean?
full wave rectified signal?
That must just be pulsed DC? That is what I had, exactly what I had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier
That link should help you understand the differences between AC, half-wave DC, and full-wave DC. A battery is considered a flat DC. In the Stan Meyer case, he was using half-wave DC to step charge the chokes. Chokes can be used as LC circuits in themselves due to the distributed capacitance and inductance of the coil. I don't think flat DC can step charge anything since there are no changes in voltage or current which is needed for reactance of components such as capacitors and inductors.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html
That link may give insight to how step charging can be accomplished with similar circuits. Is this the info you are looking for?
A bridge rectifier just takes the AC current from both poles of a magnetic field and shoves them together at different times to create DC voltage.
kinesisfilms, I am not sure what you are talking about? I could not rectify 50% duty cycle when it is clipped DC. The on time for my coil was only a few ms (2.0 to 10 ms) assuming that I have no built in dwell control in the spark module, which I don't. I am using a battery with a transistor operated spark module. The module is triggered by AC voltage, but none of that AC voltage ever goes near the primary of the ignition coil. The primary power from the coil can either be on, or off. It cannot be rectified. ;D
Oh... My fucking GOD! Read a fucking book and learn something!
I'm sorry Muble... I didn't mean to act that way.... Pleas accept my apology.
Instead of being rude, why not spend 10 seconds explaining something to me. Isn't that why we are here, to help each other?
Apparently you find it easier to insult people, rather than stepping up to the plate to help them.
I am just trying to tell you how I understand things. When I am totally wrong, please let me know.
I am willing to learn!
I have never once hooked up a bridge rectifier, or hooked a scope up to one. I am simply "assuming" that they convert AC to DC because that is what people use them for, they are used on all motorcycles and boats, and other devices that I have worked on .A boat motor has a stator, which is just magnets flying around some coils of wire, producing up to 400 volts AC, which is rectified into DC and regulated to charge the battery. And if you look at a circuit diagram for an alternator, each pole of the winding (north and south) produces current when the rotor goes by the poles. Each of the poles is hooked to the bridge rectifier and the current can only flow in one direction through it, forming DC. Why is this wrong?
I did not know you could rectify pulsed DC, because I thought pulsed DC didn't need to be rectified, that's all.
AC rectified = DC...
Quote from: HeairBear on November 10, 2008, 11:17:56 AM
AC rectified = DC...
OK but Supermuble's point; pulsed DC rectified = pulsed DC. No?
http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/AC/AC_1.html
pulsed DC rectified = pulsed DC. No? No DC is already rectified...
Quote from: HeairBear on November 10, 2008, 11:59:56 AM
http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/AC/AC_1.html
pulsed DC rectified = pulsed DC. No? No DC is already rectified...
I think he means when rectifying pulsed DC again, the signal doesn't change.
I figured out what the confusion is. Someone said I needed to RECTIFY my pulsed DC. I was trying to figure what they meant because you cannot rectify a DC signal. DC signals don't need conditioning, we are either ON or we are OFF - at least in my situation. I am trying to create a pulse, no need to condition it.
I can't figure out why someone said I needed a bridge rectifier.... I don't need one obviously, since my spark module has a transistor that uses very low voltage to trigger. When it triggers, there is only thing it can do, it can shut on and off. The power that it puts out to the ignition coil NEVER changes. It is designed to trigger with full voltage no matter what the input voltage, or the input frequency is. However, as the frequency increases, the charging time of the coil is not sufficient to create a spark. The cut off frequency is about 500 hz. On a car you would rarely see over 300 hz even in very high speed applications.
Quote from: supermuble on November 09, 2008, 07:10:46 PM
Ok so I was not step charging. But what does this mean?
full wave rectified signal?
That must just be pulsed DC? That is what I had, exactly what I had.
hell no they are not the same!! google full wave rectification!! your pulsed dc is acting like an ac waveform.......full wave will create your unipolar pulse train you are looking for......here is the wiki link!!! LEARN DONT JUST CONFUSE THINGS!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F9f%2FRectified_waves.png%2F800px-Rectified_waves.png&hash=cb82f968bd432a09e0c5a10b3e0f567b21a9a3d3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_rectifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_rectifier)
come on now! this is like learning how to walk!
Quote from: supermuble on November 10, 2008, 01:48:53 PM
I figured out what the confusion is. Someone said I needed to RECTIFY my pulsed DC. I was trying to figure what they meant because you cannot rectify a DC signal. DC signals don't need conditioning, we are either ON or we are OFF - at least in my situation. I am trying to create a pulse, no need to condition it.
I can't figure out why someone said I needed a bridge rectifier.... I don't need one obviously, since my spark module has a transistor that uses very low voltage to trigger. When it triggers, there is only thing it can do, it can shut on and off. The power that it puts out to the ignition coil NEVER changes. It is designed to trigger with full voltage no matter what the input voltage, or the input frequency is. However, as the frequency increases, the charging time of the coil is not sufficient to create a spark. The cut off frequency is about 500 hz. On a car you would rarely see over 300 hz even in very high speed applications.
i said you need to rectify your PULSED DC!!! stanley meyer does this with an inductor and a diode to catch the emf released by the inductor and force it into hte cell creating a second pulse where the off pulse is I SAID IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW STEP CHARGING WORKS TAKE YOUR PULSED DC AND RUN IT INTO A BRDIGE RECTIFIER TO LEARN!!! TO LEARN!!! and now your saying i told you to just rectify dc??? wtf does that even mean......i shouldn't even have to explain things like this, if your wave form is backwards your not step charging.....i was trying to show you how to get your waveform looking exactly like the patents....just so you COULD LEARN.....in order to step charge you need a full wave rectified signal.....just look at the patents.....you cannot charge a wfc with pulsed dc it will never reach higher voltages.....it will just charge on the on and discharge on the off.....you want an on on on on on on on off signal so it will charge on every on and discharge on every off.....HENCE HTE GATED UNIPOLAR PULSE TRAINS.....why am i explaining this??? this is common knowledge.
Where can I find the waveform your speaking of? I have read all the patents and I don't recall ever seeing a waveform ever shown. Although, I do recall seeing a waveform in a patent application from Stephen Meyer.
kinesisfilms, you are being borderline mean. Just so you know, I am new to electronics. Though recently, I built my own computer system from scratch and I am running my car with this computer. I am not a complete idiot, I am just not educated in electronic circuits. I never went to school for this, I have never even had a job in electronics. I have spent my life learning about machines. My specialty is in cars. I can build engines, build an EFI fuel rail from scratch with bare metal and a hacksaw using metal from the hardware store, and I can install custom turbochargers and tune boosted engines without an engine dyno. I can build a custom ignition system on a car using toyota parts and Saab parts mixed together. Can you do this? If you can't do these things, that is fine. I am sure you could do these things if you learned how to do them. I am sure you are smart enough to learn.
The point is, everyone has different skills, obviously I am lacking in the electronics area. Now I feel completely stupid :'(. I have never been insulted for trying to learn, so I am surprised at the lack of patience. My feelings are hurt.
If you want to ask me about cars, I'll spend all my valuable time explaining things because I do not mind helping people learn. I only hope you can share the same compassion for me.
BTW, I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know exactly what my setup is? My spark module is designed to trigger with an AC waveform. It is NOT designed for pulsed DC. I am feeding my spark module with the correct AC waveform that it is looking for, between 0.50 volts and 40 volts AC with very little current (via the limiting resistor) on the speaker wire input. I am simulating a distributor on a car. The spark module simply switches on and off with each zero crossing of the AC waveform. How is a rectifier going to trigger differently? Please don't be mad. I am going to spend at least 2 hours reading tonight. I am going to learn as fast as I can, but please have a little bit of patience, I can only learn so much so fast! :D
I find it really hard to be nice, but I don't like acting like a little kid. These forums are all about learning. Just to put an end to the confusion, here is what I was doing.
I was NOT putting AC voltage to my automotive coil, and I was not pulsing my coil with speaker wires. I was using speaker wire to trigger a spark module for a car, which switches at FULL power no matter what. The pulse was sent into a bifilar coil, and I was getting a pulse doubling effect on the scope, 25 hz turned into 50 hz.
I think I replicated the experiment pretty well for using junk. I am going to improve the experiment more by using different electrodes, a large inductor and some other various parts. Anyway I hope this clarifies what I was doing.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FVIC%2FMy_screen_shot_first_hydrogen_car_coil.jpg&hash=ce05bae15ef038d8ae1fe7385403c32c9983d91e)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FVIC%2FMeyer_VIC_replication_diagram.gif&hash=df2003a7597cd56b1d8906f72ca98da4f32488a7)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FVIC%2FMeyer_VIC_replication.gif&hash=bcb1f1306d26da9bd2060523493af1f822f0c366)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h2ofuelkits.com%2Fimages%2FVIC%2FHydrogen_Resonance%2520copy.gif&hash=ec9c008cef5e089e8752d5ae48607f3543f979ef)
heairbear......honestly where in the patents do you see a full rectified wave form???
note the input being a 50 percent duty cycle square wave that is gated.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy2%2Fkinesisfilms%2Forientationofvic.jpg%3Ft%3D1226366216&hash=13c5b1d5082156a154f6d5a6bfee5e6878ec03bf)
then in between the transformer and the diode we have our stepped up 50 percent duty cycle square still acting as dc.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy2%2Fkinesisfilms%2Fwave1.jpg&hash=260175726e89eea0f9f15a0b9543b3bc12a3d478)
then after the diode it becomes unipolar......go ahead take your pwm and measure it as ac it will give you a reading.....then put it through a diode and measure it again....ac reading of 0.......
then after the inductor is charged with this unipolar pulse and discharged it creates a second pulse in the original off pulse creating a FULLY RECTIFIED WAVE FORM.......as here
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy2%2Fkinesisfilms%2Fwave2.jpg&hash=628a50d08d9bbab6d7dcef237753b507a209e127)
THOSE IMAGES ARE FROM THE PATENT.....and now that we have officially ruined fritz's thread to explain wtf a fully rectified wave form is and where it is in stanley meyers patents we can now get back on topic.....heairbear.....look a little harder at the patents and maybe you can find what you seem to not be able to see.
Guys guys, I think I can settle this.
Kines point makes perfect sense, though I would not call rectifying Basically you need the diode on the transformer secondary's negative to keep the water capacitor from discharging back through your step up transformer into the primary, damaging mosfets and the like. This is also crucial for building up high voltage across the 'trodes.
Essentially, the charge oscillates between the water tank and the inductor at a certain natural frequency. If you match the pulses to the oscillating wave right at the peak, you will have coinciding waves, or waves with identical phase, 0 degrees. Synchronized waves add in voltage! A phenomenon of electricity. Out of phase waves will not double voltage.... it's just like when certain objects in a room vibrate from a particular note hitting them...
whoa
check this pic to see what I mean by phase coincidence(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterfuelcell.org%2FphpBB2%2Ffiles%2Fimgp1670_127.jpg&hash=54d03352d5478b65e6d2f9b55a41f94df9ff738d)
Oh and the rule of 9's, you only have to have a frequency generator capable of 1/9th, 1/18th, 1/27th etc. of the natural resonating frequency of the water molecules for this to work. It's like how an ICE only fire the cylinder every 4th stroke -- the wave may osciilate 3 or 4 times (octaves) before it is hit again, but you still get resonance
Ups, missed out some notifications,
was busy and thought thread is dead....
Ok, had my nice 50kV setup with the ignition coil.
Why it doesn´t work:
I operated the coil with up to 40V on primary - but
the inductivity of the coil is too high to get energy in at
reasonable frequencies...
Additional - the "AC" output impedance of the secondary is too
high - NOTHING happens. (but get 5cm sparks if open loop)
What you need is a low impedance - high voltage pulse - and a
high impedance space between the pulses.
If you want to step charge the wfc - the energy which is transfered
during the pulse must be higher - than the discharge in the space
between the pulses.
If you assume that the meyer vic choke consisted of 2 x 10kOhm windings -
this would mean that you have a constant DC discharge of for example
1000V/20kOhm = 50mA. That would mean with 50% duty cycle that you
have 25 Watts RMS discharge -> means you need more energy in.
What is the reported operating step chargin voltage ? some hundred volts ?
At first site its way easier to generate such pulse trains with mechanical
commutator from low impedance high voltage source - or HV mosfet switcher.
With "myfirstvic" I got step charge up to 60V with tap water - and 150V with
distilled water - at certain frequencies.
Because of the restrictions with the vic - I will go on with mechanical commutator
and hv switching without VIC.
rgds.
Hi Guys anyone tried that circuit that alan posted?
I was going to try that.
I saw it too on youtube.
Thanks
Great post. I say again, you need the diode in series with the secondary of the transformer to prevent reverse leakage, or, a low resistance circuit during on time, and a high impedance during off time. A zener diode for example. High speed switching
I would also recommend a driver for your fet, if you are using one. The driver is more like a buffer, it cleans up the incoming wave so you get nice clean pulses, perfectly clipped. This helps the coil discharge and produce HV.
I have also heard this but am not quite sure I remember it well:
That you should have a capacitor in series with the ground and mosfet so that primary discharges faster.. I assume this could be true if the capacitor attempts to "reabsorb" any current that was used during the "on" cycle.
YEA
"HeairBear" I have read all of this topic, "My first WFC/VIC),
You have done a lot of work as I see.
What kind of results have you achieved on the Stanley Meyers replication?
@all
I did not want to say anything yet, but I am having a tremendous success!!!!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158838#msg158838
Jesus
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Just recycle this thread.
Right now I do various measurements on my water-caps.
The simplest parameter is the internal resistance as a product of DC electrolysis and the envolved space/surface.
For my 10 cm size tube cell - this is about 20 Ohms, for the 30cm cell - its about 8 Ohms - and for a special cell 30cm long with 3 electrodes (double surface/space) its about 4 Ohms.
This resistance is what you got on the passivation cycles with DC.
If I apply DC pulses 10us / 1kV / rectangular - the cell seems to operate as a resistive load with exact the same resistance evaluated from not pulsed operation.
Comming back to the "miracle" question - I want to investigate further how that step charging is possible.
Is it caused by the pulsetrain itself (right now I only used single pulse) - or by the steep transients involved.
So I will do a test and record the current drawn during a pulsetrain.
Anyway - by some means I need this internal resistance to go up significant to achieve step charging.
A parallel LC circuit will have high impedance at resonance - transforming an applied pulse (if suitable) to increase the energy captured in the oscillation.
Another quite interesting test was to hook up the cell to an audio analyzer in kind of impedance-measurment fashion.
(measuring voltage vs. current phase) with small sinusodial AC signal form 20Hz - 20kHz.
The response was as flat as can be - with no significant sign of a typical capacitive/inductive behaviour - using 22 Ohms and 100 Ohms current sensing resistor.
The interesting point was that I found a clear but very flat bell-shaped figure concerning the phase between current and voltage.
Around 12kHz, I have "0" phase - means pure resistive load.
Because of the flatness - I think that this might be an issue of the water itself.
Somebody to comment that ?
Another issue is the mechanical oscillation of the tubes.
If you look at the meyer setups - you have the outer tubes precisely mounted at the oscillation knots.
This is around 20% and 80% of the entire length. (slightly less than a quarter)
On the point of maximum field-strength (maximum voltage) there is the maximum force between inner tube
and outer tube - which causes a very tiny but relevant deformation of the tubes.
If you keep in mind that this influences the capacity of the cell - you have another charge-pump effect which
can be involved by certain degree.
If you decrease the capacity of a charged cap (in our case this is the relaxation after voltage peak) - the voltage
goes further up (because the charge stays the same).
This can have a kind of negative feedback property.
I don´t know so far what impact this issue has on the operation of the cell - maybe its just an intuitive design approach of no actual outcome - but in combination with some comments (outer tube should be of the seamless type) this could be the hint to some non-documented design issue.
We built our cells with similar mounting - optimized for maximum acoustic resonance - which is around 800Hz for the 30cm type.
Measurements of the oscillation in water shows that this is almost identical with the mechanical resonance if operated in water.
Any comments on that ?
rgds.