would fast dc pulses (inductive collapse from a coil) charge a capacitor faster or slower then a capacitor charged normally. the reasoning being; it appears to have less resistance when charged in pulses.
the electrostatic charge in pulses would give the dielectric material in a capacitor more time to react and thus create less resistance to in-cumming surges, basically no charge pile ups -less capacitive reactance/reluctances
your opinions please!
Thanks!
If you look at my YT channel you can find a video of me pulse-charging a cap bank with sparks and corona discharges from a small Van De Graaff machine. And you can see what happens when I discharge the stored energy.
When pulse-charging a cap from a squarewave pulse or an inductive collapse, the cap sees spikes of very high voltage that you don't see on meters or "less-expensive" oscilloscopes. There's a LOT of energy in these spikes (E=(CVV)/2) and the caps love it--if they have the right dielectric. You can easily explode cheap electrolytics, even if you think you are within their voltage range, by pulse charging with spiky voltages.
But the various titanate compounds like in RF doorknobs can take it.
I think actually the pulse charging gives the dielectric less time to react, not more.
Might pulse charging a capacitor lead to dielectric breakdown? ..in theory it would be like spiking the materials; seeing as how a pulse might cause the same effects as say ...rather than driving a load across a bridge, dropping a load onto the bridge would have a more negative effect even though it's the same weight.
Perhaps using a capacitor intended for AC, but in a DC pulse situation - you could avoid the likelihood of the capacitor failing.
Capacitors seem like a effective way to send a regulated amount of charge through something. ...maybe using one cap to charge another and a timer circuit. That makes little sense though ...you'de have to slowly charge a cap anyway.
Hi, TinselKoala
Where is your yt channel located? Link please, did not know what that was… thanks.
This is basically where I’m heading… sharp high voltage square wave pulses from inductive collapse. Lots of energy, and the cap converts it to current for use, the caps DO like it a lot, hence my question. I have a bunch of hv caps (ceramics for now) at low value that are paralleled to reduce the esr on discharge. Still playing with different dielectrics.
Thanks!
I think this is his channel: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TinselKoala&view=videos
Very interesting stuff there too!
Yup, that's it.
Nearly killed myself yesterday, too. I was packing up to go to work, and I grabbed that brown dual cap stack, and just as my fingers closed on it I realized I hadn't put on the safety short the previous night, and I had been operating the VDG while having coffee...ZAP! Only a small charge but it got me good, I can still feel it in my hand tonight. I've been around this stuff for so long that I simply cannot touch stuff with both hands--my reflexes are that conditioned. And lately I've been noticing that I hesitate even with just one hand.
If I had grabbed that stack with both hands I'd probably bring on a heart attack.
Please, be careful with big HV capacitors. They can suck up charge when you aren't looking, so it's good practice to keep them shorted with a jumper when not in use. And for goodness sake, keep one hand in your pocket!
OCH!!! well, you got your internal battery's charged!
seriously, i have been there many a time and it hurts each time, hope your feeling better! i'm an old technician and each time it still stings... i learned to put a high megohm resistor across my caps ;D
i'm watching your neat videos on that site...very cool.
I started thinking again...
Charge separation in a parallel-plate capacitor causes an internal electric field. A dielectric (orange) reduces the field and increases the capacitance.
A capacitor converts charge to electric field and stores it as an electric field.
large conductors = large surface area, least resistance to surface charge or put another way, the larger the surface area, the less resistance to incoming charge and storage.
all charge is on the surface area, not inside the conductor. and creating field from charge on the surface of that conductor.
Your opinions
Looks like death is near you TK. You better watch out. Tomorrow I'll take some time watching some of the disruptice discharge experiments of yours.
every multi-conductor geometry has capacitance.
displacement current
Polarization...
Therefor my thinking is that a large surface area (flat plates), with small capacitance would be better for pulse charging, and could easily be put in parallel with more of the same, reducing the incoming resistances/reluctance.
awaiting thoughts on this...
Hi Turniton,
Interesting subject, my thoughts are this.
You´re right, for effectively mopping up fast transients you want caps with a very low equivalent series resistance (ESR) and also a high voltage rating.
Coil generated transients tend to consist of a very sharp front which goes very highV for a very short time followed by the main exponential body of the pulse which is much lower V and lasts alot longer time.
Maybe we don´t need all of our C to be low ESR, but just enough to catch that fast front.
So perhaps a good way is to build a capacitor cascade using a few different caps in parallel:
Use ultra low ESR caps as close as poss to the pulse source. You can use fairly small C here because it only needs to do its job for a very small time. You want it to be high V though.
Then parallel behind that use a slightly higher ESR of a slightly larger C with a slightly lower V
You can carry on and end up with some big cheap electrolytics with quite high ESR and fairly low V at the back.
The parallel bus wires should probably be made out of nice thick wire or maybe even better would be nice wide copper strips like wide copper tape that in itself can form an ultra low ESR and high V cap by facing the copper plates together with an airgap.
Whether some cascaded inductors would be needed in series with the caps I´m not sure at the moment ???
Obviously the above is just an idea, I am defo going to get hold ofsome RF doorknob caps as TK suggests for catching fast transients and then maybe play with the above idea.
Quote from: turniton on January 09, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
displacement current
[image]
Reminds me of the contrarotating homopolar disk setup...as in a capacitive homopolar motor.
I've very new to electronics, is there a way to charge a capacitor without it discharging back trhough the system? ..perhaps a diode?
Yucca - you got it! thats it.
i was even thinking of the first caps as being made of double sided copper clad board (nice hv dielectric) and making the B+ bus lines very wide (increase the surface charge area) directly to the coils and other caps. thus converting as much inductive magnetic collapse to electric surface charge as fast as possible.
maybe even some glass bottle caps (tin foil inside and out) and low esr. Caps can effectively be made out of anything, and no need to buy what can be made cheaply. just be careful to discharge before handling.
the effective staring caps should have small capacitance.
Good building!
Yes, on the diode! fast switching high amp is best.
The Unusual Radiations Produced by Nikola Tesla
http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/tesla.htm
in Tesla's time there where very small capacitance's, looks like short but wide bus bars. electric fields with amazing ability's and stinging effects. short duration make/brake contacts. i would imagine caps in the PF or NF range.
Tesla's high voltage switch with the amazing tingling sensations were probably a product of a combination of metallic particles and sound waves. It occurs to me that if someone can create primitive x-rays by unrolling scotch tape http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27323869/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27323869/), then he was probably getting large doses of radiation as well.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 10, 2009, 03:54:57 PM
Tesla's high voltage switch with the amazing tingling sensations were probably a product of a combination of metallic particles and sound waves. It occurs to me that if someone can create primitive x-rays by unrolling scotch tape http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27323869/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27323869/), then he was probably getting large doses of radiation as well.
Hi Jadaro,
From what I´ve read, Tesla even performed the highV switch experiment some distance away and even stood within a very thick earthed copper shielding, the stinging feeling did not diminish in any way, if it were metal particles, even of atomic size at incredible speeds, then I wouldn´t expect them to penetrate a thick copper shield. And if somehow they did manage to get through then you would expect some attenuation.
The only explanation at the moment that makes any kind of sense to me is longitudinal waves (scalar waves), compression and rarefaction of the very ether itself, some say propogated at superluminal speeds. Ether is said to permeate everything from vacuum to dense solids, like its the fabric of space, only this would explain propogation through seemingly everything.
Probably very short pulses of pretty much the whole higher RF spectrum gets thrown out too, xrays included as you say, but none of that would get through a thick copper shield.
P.S.
Your idea was also Teslas first idea about what was going on, you can search this doc for "stinging" to read about it: http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/tesla.htm
Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 10, 2009, 12:46:40 AM
Reminds me of the contrarotating homopolar disk setup...as in a capacitive homopolar motor.
I've very new to electronics, is there a way to charge a capacitor without it discharging back trhough the system? ..perhaps a diode?
If you watch my VanDeGraaf videos, the first two I think, you will see how those capacitors "suck up" charge from the field, even without direct connection. I use a little spark gap and a strong electric field, and the caps get quite a charge--I believe I am exceeding the rated cap voltage considerably, but since it's DC the caps don't seem to mind. (Well, of course the discharge is a damped AC waveform at relatively high frequency, but that only happens but rarely--considering these caps are normally used in laser pulse power supplies and high-power RF transmitters...)
If you want to get really high voltages, diodes aren't going to satisfy. You'll need spark gaps, thyratrons, or such like.
Quote from: Yucca on January 10, 2009, 04:54:42 PM
The only explanation at the moment that makes any kind of sense to me is longitudinal waves (scalar waves), compression and rarefaction of the very ether itself, some say propogated at superluminal speeds. Ether is said to permeate everything from vacuum to dense solids, like its the fabric of space, only this would explain propogation through seemingly everything.
Probably very short pulses of pretty much the whole higher RF spectrum gets thrown out too, xrays included as you say, but none of that would get through a thick copper shield.
P.S.
Your idea was also Teslas first idea about what was going on, you can search this doc for "stinging" to read about it: http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/tesla.htm
I've re-read the article, it's been some time. When you say " the Aether / Ether " ..the only conceivable manifestation is the very math behind physics and the world around us. I DO imagine that at high enough levels, it begins to replicate the world in a realativ[ity] way that we might not expect to observe in our puny relative size / existence. Perhaps he caused a gravitational pulses or a scalar wave.
I think that this shielding would be ineffective unless it was either surrounding the observer, or the device itself, like a faraday shield, but with solid materials. Anything going through or beyond that would be..dare i say, acting within hyperspace. Maybe a short burst of something beyond gamma rays, or even still, below radio waves. Some great big shock wave of a single magnitude and of no hertzian significance?
I have read a lot on the subject of Aether/Ether from many different people and the ideas that concern it. I would like to share my thoughts on this.
Why is hard to except the fact that an all pervading energy that flows and is part of all things and replenishes it and sustains it exists. Scientific evidence has proven time and again that temperature does not interfere with it; it has a wave function and frequency and exerts atomic pull, and has gravity due to mass quantity, is multi-dimensional, exists both in the forefront and background. And depending on its intensity and quality can produce different effects.
Perhaps the fact that all atoms are continuously replenished by it from somewhere? the fact is that every atom, electron, call it what you will (just energy names for some cloud of energy of specific given mass/energy) is pumped with energy continuously and always has. You want free energy here it is… set up an energy wave pump with the universal energy that pervades all. Not so easy however… as others have stated it in different terms, a bird on a high tension wire seeking energy which is everywhere and we can’t find it.
Ask yourself this, if Tesla had been zapped by x-rays or other rays or partials, it would have damaged him. Yet he lived long, didn’t loose his hair and lived a long life… if it would have been short exposure or long we would have known about it at some point.
But I’m getting off the topic of “pulse charging capsâ€â€¦ I wanted to point out in the article that Tesla was using wide and short bus lines. Remember surface charge and the bus lines themselves act as small pf caps! Take this into consideration.
TinselKola, spark gaps seem to be the best way of transfer without diodes, however have many problems, but are very effective. I have been working on -Rotary Magnetic Quenching- devices which work better, to some degree. The results are good. But I still seek a more conventional electronic method. Semiconductors are almost useless in HV production and control when deal with higher potentials and transfer.
TinselKola, try an experiment… use “wide and short†B+ bus line on your HV cap sides and tell me if you get better effects!
Jadaro2600 & Yucca, Gravitational pulses or a scalar wave, YES! I agree. A longitudinal wave front that does not equal the wave function of matter or normal matter/energy would go right through it. This would explain a great many things. Low frequency sounds can have great impact at even long distances, remember he was playing with resonance on matter, his earth resonator was one of them, and remember the building that almost collapsed as a result. In fact the military has been playing with the concept and has build a couple machines that produce a tingling sensation or heating sensation, both microwaves and using sounds. The collapse of an arc produces both high intense sound and radiation. Perhaps testing specific frequency's through materials is in order.
@turniton: I already know that it would work better. I am well familiar with the effects of self-inductance on high-current power bus circuits. Thanks for reminding me--those caps are just mounted for convenience using some of their original brackets from the laser pulse supply (there were about a hundred of those caps in parallel, in an oil tank...)
In some of Tesla's circuits he sought to minimize self-inductance, hence the ribbon conductors and single-turn primaries; in others he sought to maximize self-capacitance, in bifilar spirals and so forth.
I think.
QuoteWhy is hard to except the fact that an all pervading energy that flows and is part of all things and replenishes it and sustains it exists. Scientific evidence has proven time and again that temperature does not interfere with it; it has a wave function and frequency and exerts atomic pull, and has gravity due to mass quantity, is multi-dimensional, exists both in the forefront and background. And depending on its intensity and quality can produce different effects.
It seems as though the Aether is like a Cartesian coordinate reference frame that we have yet to tap in to. I understand that there's energy to be had there, in some form. But Tesla's high energy discharges, if set off with frequency, would no doubt cause resonance, even in the most obscure structures.
It would be interesting to know a little more about his lab and the surrounding building. Everything isn't without effecting the other - this is basic chaos theory. I would also be interested to se if disharging those bursts effected the power grid in any way. I know when someone shorts out a light socket in the neighborhood, or an arc welder goes to work, there's all kinds of flicker.
As for pulse charging a capacitor, I'm reminded of a ball bouncing back and forth or water sloshing back and forth in a tub, etc. If you pulse charge the capacitor, maybe diode protecting the pulse would keep things in the 'tank' better. Knowing that a capacitor has to have time to charge, it might be feasible instead to use special diodes as channel locks to avoid an potential backwash or blowback.
..perhaps I've misunderstood the devices though. Maybe a series discharge or parallel discharge would also do the trick.
It really depends on whether or not you want current out of the discharge or just voltage.
I found this gold mine of capacitors in a broke automotive audio amp, there's dozens of them in there, along with npn, pnp switches and about half a dozen other circuits i don't know anything about :P ..i look forward to reclaiming them. Having said that, npn, pnp switches may also be useful in pulse charging a capacitor.
Off topic a little: Do any of you know how to test a pnp npn transistor? ..i've got a tester that has a plug for testing these, but I don't know how to read it much less what the readings mean.
A transistor is nothing more then a set of diodes, Basically... Do some basic diode checks with a voltmeter - set on diode check- see the following web pages.
http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/multimeter-diode-transistor-test.php
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/tran.htm
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/25h.htm
Most of those capacitors in the car amp will be rated for 35volts or so... nice components however inside.
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/basic-electronics.htm
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~elec201/Book/basic_elec.html
http://101science.com/transistor.htm
Hope this helps!
Much thanks!
@TinselKoala â€" have seen all your video’s. very impressive. I really liked the rubber ball going back and forth in the dirod experiment! I bought a book about it but haven’t had the time to experiment. You should put a magnet inside the rubber ball, insert inside a plastic tube and put a coil around that thing! LOL! Should generate a bit…
Mentioning the oil tank, I have two 3ft x 3ft oil filled transformers from an xray machine with diodes inside! Rather cool when I was taking one apart, nice hv transformer, lots of small #28 or so wire. Didn’t find any caps however ;-(
Your right on Tesla’s circuits for minimizing self inductance and maximizing self-capacitance. ("radiation resistance") minimize all resistances- I have read almost all the patents, he has a theme going on…he found something… best guess is the new grid he was trying to build, hence the newer wireless power patents, too bad we didn’t adopt the idea… pulsed dc is so much better and more efficient. We have it if we choose to adopt it however. Very slick thinking on Tesla’s part.
Your resonances and power output would be far more efficient and act father with “more smaller winds†on your two secondary Tesla bifilar coils above the main primary bifilar coil. The more windings the higher the potential (exponential output) and the longer the distance for the same power input. Maximize your secondary & reduce your ground resistances and see what happens. I have had a single small generator, centrally located; turn on fully, four 4ft florescent tubes in each corner of my room 10ft away due to perfect tuning and design, no wires. It does work nicely. You can also put the secondary coils on the loads directly and effect at a distance when tuned.
check this out!!
http://www.teralab.co.uk/Electronics/Tesla_Coil_1/Tesla_Coil_1_Page1.htm
Good Luck!
Quote from: turniton on January 12, 2009, 05:12:52 PM
@TinselKoala â€" have seen all your video’s. very impressive. I really liked the rubber ball going back and forth in the dirod experiment! I bought a book about it but haven’t had the time to experiment. You should put a magnet inside the rubber ball, insert inside a plastic tube and put a coil around that thing! LOL! Should generate a bit…
Mentioning the oil tank, I have two 3ft x 3ft oil filled transformers from an xray machine with diodes inside! Rather cool when I was taking one apart, nice hv transformer, lots of small #28 or so wire. Didn’t find any caps however ;-(
Your right on Tesla’s circuits for minimizing self inductance and maximizing self-capacitance. ("radiation resistance") minimize all resistances- I have read almost all the patents, he has a theme going on…he found something… best guess is the new grid he was trying to build, hence the newer wireless power patents, too bad we didn’t adopt the idea… pulsed dc is so much better and more efficient. We have it if we choose to adopt it however. Very slick thinking on Tesla’s part.
Your resonances and power output would be far more efficient and act father with “more smaller winds†on your two secondary Tesla bifilar coils above the main primary bifilar coil. The more windings the higher the potential (exponential output) and the longer the distance for the same power input. Maximize your secondary & reduce your ground resistances and see what happens. I have had a single small generator, centrally located; turn on fully, four 4ft florescent tubes in each corner of my room 10ft away due to perfect tuning and design, no wires. It does work nicely. You can also put the secondary coils on the loads directly and effect at a distance when tuned.
check this out!!
http://www.teralab.co.uk/Electronics/Tesla_Coil_1/Tesla_Coil_1_Page1.htm
Good Luck!
Yes, totally cool! Beautiful corona displays! That's your first coil? Very nice job! I especially like the antique capacitors.
Could you post a closeup of the spark gap (unenergised), so we can see the details?
I was originally testing some other stuff with those little bifilar coils, which is why they are so "short", that is so few turns. I agree that you are (mostly) right, for the freqs I'm using now, more turns would be more efficient.
In the Dirod video, the ball is a ping-pong ball painted with conductive nickel paint (sold as RF shielding paint in fancy electronic component stores). It actually makes the ball slightly magnetic, but the magnetism isn't important in this electrostatic demo. I have tried what you suggest and it does work--the world's most inefficient linear alternator!!
But the ping-pong ball does generate static voltage when rocked back and forth in a tube, with inductors and pickup pins in the right places. I made a generator on this principle that would light a NE-2 for a flash, with each rocking cycle, as the ping-pong ball rolled over the pickup pins between the inductors. It's a pretty cool thing, looks very Buck Rogers too. I'll see if I can find a pic (the thing is in storage in another country right now...)
I just posted a new video of my small VDG machine producing 95 millimeter sparks, estimated 200 kV. I'm scared to start charging that cap stack, I might not survive an accidental shock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLeRgo2dQn0
Regarding that web site, it’s not mine. However, I did an exact replica of it back in 1988, before the article came out, and the results where the same as where the pictures, the current was very very low, and my coils where shellacked several times. I used to play with the HV with my hands without getting burnt on the main secondary coil (not suggested). It was very cool however, freaked out my friends. On mine I had a simple spark gap made of plastic into a U and on each side I had adjustment screws with small brass balls in the center. Tuning was critical. To avoid getting sparked, I stood on a plastic milk carton so I wasn’t grounded. My entire body was tingling however. I made many Tesla coils, probably around 15 or so since, each time with a bit more power…
LOL - the world's most inefficient linear alternator!!
How close was the coil to the ball? How close was the magnet to the coil?