This one has got more info and data to support Norm and Joel's patent suppression case, as well as a nice COP of 8. If you are able to contribute to helping this situation please contact us.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8020205776562649310&hl=en
Ash
In response to the request for ideas on getting a DC IN incorporated into the MRA design, here's one:
Build up a variable sine wave oscillator using a XR2206 or 8038 in the range of frequency that you need and run it off a rechargeable 9V battery. Use the rectified output to keep the battery charged, and funnel the rest of the power to light some LED's.
If the MRA really is running with a COP>1 then the LED's should illuminate for years.
.99
poynt99, i cannot believe it, a constructive non skeptical post, thank you for your insights, ill pass that onto Norman Wooten, ill try and build it, if any ones sends us the stuff its quicker and we can get it tested for all, its all open source. :D We need some thing that you can adjust the duty cycle and frequency and not mess around with putting each other out..Thanks man, ill do my best to build, if you do or ANY ONE, send it to me ill post my results for all.The FE community needs to work together to get info out to capacity, that's what panacea is all about , every one working in the same place. OPEN SOURCE, NON PROFIT.
they cannot stop us then.poynt99 thanks again for your contribution.
Sincerely from me ASH
It seems the XR2206 and ICL8038 are either extremely difficult to find or very expensive, which makes them a bad choice for sine generators.
Does the drive need to be sine wave?
It would sure simplify things if a triangle or square wave would do the job.
Could you test with your generator set to square wave instead of sine and see if the results are similar?
.99
Hi poynt99, No prob will do some square/Sine runs.
Ash
Sounds and looks great ASH.
Does the transformer has to have the same resonance frequency as the
Barium-Titanate Transducer ?
So do you need to tune the stray capacitance of the transformer for this reason
with the help of an external capacitance ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan and all.
Sorry i forgot to include the research course from the panacea university site, that has all the info about the resonant frequency and the 3 octaves.
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/
Magnetic Resonant Amplifier - Joel McClain & Norman Wootan (PDF) - updated December 5 2008 . With low-level ultrasonic input signals, the Magnetic Resonance Amplifier (MRA) produces usable direct current power at levels above unity. This circuit is based upon the work and theories of John Ernst Worrell Keely, and is offered into the public domain in his memory.
Panacea-BOCAF reference page.
Guys take a look at this paper, it has all the info you need about the resonant frequencies and ranges :).
Let me know if any probs.
Ash
Hi Ash,
please read the article by Earth Tech Institute and their measurements.
http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/mra/mra.txt
What do you think they made wrong in their testing ?
This report killed the MRA in 1995.
I still remember it pretty well as it was discussed heavily on the
yahoogroups at this time with JL. Naudin and a few others too.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan, it is not my policy to discuss skepticism with out a trusted source building it,, it leads to a lot of time wasting hence why i am not frequent here on the forum.As i know your self, ill give you the opinion of it, from Joel himself , in an email to me, i do not intend to discuss those reports or skepticism, only perform R and D.
This is the reason why the last MRA thread died here before.
-----------------
"As for Hal, at this point and considering his age, I really just pity him. I'm not sure that he ever really understood how the MRA works, despite all of the information available from us at no cost. Until one has a firm grasp of sacred geometry, one really does not know how anything works, least of all a device which uses the nonlinear indeterminant but universal constants to entrain harmonic energy. I've found that people either understand it immediately and intuitively, or never"-Joel.
Hi Ash,
did you use a big capacitor after the graetz bridge ?
Probably not , right ?
This would be much better to measure just a DC Voltage at this point
to not to jam the digital meter as the bridge rectified about 30 khz
wave has a lot of harmonics which the digital meter would probably
not show correctly...
Well, the 20 LEDs don´t look as bright as if they would use up 0.6 Watts of power...
That would probably be much brighter at this power level...
Do you have a scope to check for the waveforms and amplitudes ?
You should really measure this very exactly.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan we are fully aware of what we need to do next. This is a progression of research and measurements.
As for yourself, i suggest you get the same LEDS and SAME signal generator, you will only light up 6 LEDS
The 20 we lit up were bright enough, i know from being there. I will not be answering these posts again.
I suggest you follow the PDF.
Ash
Hi Ash,
many thanks.
I have now read the PDF file from:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Magnetic%20Resonant%20Amplifier.pdf
So you have used pretty old LEDs, right ?
Okay, that might then fit with the output LED power ratings.
Would be nice to see some scopeshots in a new video.
Does it really need this BariumTitanate speaker or
is a Silver cap or a piezo from
a piezo horn speaker also good to do the job ?
Would be nice, if you could scale up the power
level and do it all with DC voltage measurements at the input and at the output.
Many thanks in advance.
Keep up the good work.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
if you read the PDF you can see the exact part number and LED we used, they are not old ones.I cannot comment on other piezos as we have only tested the ones provided to us by Norm and Joel.
We are not able to find off the shelf parts at this time sadly, this is why we need more staff and volunteers to help. As we stated on the video, we intend on a re wind and the analog DC in and out.
Ash
From the document, Norm said he was trying to make a DC powered generator with CMOS gates. This would have been a square wave oscillator, so I suspect this should work also. I wonder if he had any success with this oscillator, and if not why?
This would be a straight-forward circuit to design, especially if only 80mW was required from it to drive the MRA.
.99
Hi poynt99
Norm has not been able to build one yet, i think the CMOS gate driver was a suggestion we got for another forum. Thing is you have to make it so the duty cycle does not change when you adjust the frequency. Perhaps you could design these circuits and post? don't worry if those thing are expensive, I think we did get it working on a square wave, will confirm in a few hours.
Ash
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on January 27, 2009, 08:16:43 PM
This one has got more info and data to support Norm and Joel's patent suppression case, as well as a nice COP of 8. If you are able to contribute to helping this situation please contact us.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8020205776562649310&hl=en
Ash
@ash
i shown above video.
this say NOTHING,
yes this are possible 20ma LED (datasheet),
but this sax that 29mA that you can drive with.
give attention, they will light also with 4 to 5 mA very bright.
IF (and i think so) if it lightning with 4mA . you have no oberunity, you have still some losses.
So you cant say that are 5 time 20mA . to manipulating
an 4-times overunity.
You must test this (i you can di it).
It is normal that that PIEZO will transfer an resonancy frequency,
but this is not mysteriosly.So you can explain that .
P.S. its not an Condensor ! Is not workin in such function in this circuit
Gustav Pese
Ash,
What was the frequency you found worked best with your setup?
Fixing the duty cycle won't be much of a problem, although I don't know if it would make that much difference anyway if it changed a few percent.
Sure, I'd be happy to design the circuit. Let me know what the fo frequency is and what range you want.
..99
Gustav, go get the same LEDS and signal Gen and light up 20 LEDS. I know your wrong, but i dont discuss this, read my prior posts.
Ash
Quote from: poynt99 on January 28, 2009, 10:38:10 PM
Ash,
What was the frequency you found worked best with your setup?
Fixing the duty cycle won't be much of a problem, although I don't know if it would make that much difference anyway if it changed a few percent.
Sure, I'd be happy to design the circuit. Let me know what the fo frequency is and what range you want.
..99
poynt99 , sure thing and thanks man, ill get the precise frequency for you and post tonight, will have to wait a few hours.
Ash
Hi poynt99 ,
Okay, the 20 LED circuit was operating at 16-17Khz on a square wave ( i would make the range 20-25Khz encase)
So what we really need is a variable frequency(to tune to resonance) and a fixed duty cycle of 50% - Can be Square wave
Andrew thinks this is the only way it will work. As even changing the leads length and plugging in another circuit, changes the resonant parameters, that's why it may be a higher freq or lower form the driver circuit after removing the signal Gen..(make a higher range please) this is one sensitive device.Joel and Norm have told me about how the moons gravity and Sun effect the out puts.
Ash
Quote from: poynt99 on January 28, 2009, 02:37:50 PM
It seems the XR2206 and ICL8038 are either extremely difficult to find or very expensive, which makes them a bad choice for sine generators.
Does the drive need to be sine wave?
It would sure simplify things if a triangle or square wave would do the job.
Could you test with your generator set to square wave instead of sine and see if the results are similar?
.99
@ Ash & Poynt99
I've found the XR2206 in stock at the following:
Mouser Electronics$7.79 - http://mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=H%252bP%2fcHWii3cm1aCPniRXbw%3d%3d (http://mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=H%252bP%2fcHWii3cm1aCPniRXbw%3d%3d)
$ 7.29 - http://mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=H%252bP%2fcHWii3dGXk0dx06osA%3d%3d (http://mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=H%252bP%2fcHWii3dGXk0dx06osA%3d%3d)
JDR Microdevices$3.25 - http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=XR2206 (http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=XR2206)
Future Electronics$2.62 - http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/production-products/test-measurement/function-generators/Pages/3238037-XR2206CP-F.aspx (http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/production-products/test-measurement/function-generators/Pages/3238037-XR2206CP-F.aspx)
$2.60 - http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Technologies/Product.aspx?ProductID=XR2206DFEXAR4075065 (http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Technologies/Product.aspx?ProductID=XR2206DFEXAR4075065)
-Duff
Duff thanks a lot man, this circuit will also be sent to Norman Wootan if working okay.
Thanks again man.
Ash
Duff,
I checked these two chips earlier today and knowing then that current consumption is of prime importance in this application, I was hoping that square waves would do the job (as Ash and Andrew have just confirmed), so that a CMOS chip could be proposed for the oscillator design.
The 2206 and 8038 consume about 5mA with a supply of 10V, or about 50mW of power. The CMOS oscillator I've agreed to design shouldn't use any more than 100uA (900uW with a 9V source) or so when idling (i.e not driving any load) , so the only real power used from it will be to drive the MRA--the 80mW output with 600 Ohm output impedance.
Good to know that these chips can be found still at a reasonable price. The ones I found were in the range of $50 ea.
.99
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on January 28, 2009, 11:01:47 PM
Hi poynt99 ,
Okay, the 20 LED circuit was operating at 16-17Khz on a square wave ( i would make the range 20-25Khz encase)
So what we really need is a variable frequency(to tune to resonance) and a fixed duty cycle of 50% - Can be Square wave
Andrew thinks this is the only way it will work. As even changing the leads length and plugging in another circuit, changes the resonant parameters, that's why it may be a higher freq or lower form the driver circuit after removing the signal Gen..(make a higher range please) this is one sensitive device.Joel and Norm have told me about how the moons gravity and Sun effect the out puts.
Ash
I'll try to work it so you've got roughly 10 kHz (min setting) to 30 kHz (max setting) range, if that suits you.
.99
Hi poynt99, this sounds great man, should be fine we will keep this MRA for your circuit, am going to wind a bigger one next weekend, strangely, the more winds the higher the impedance, so it went down to the audio range after bigger windings. The first one was 70Khrtz, this one went down to 16-20Khz
Ash
Ash, your higher wind results sound about right.
What I'm curious about, is what if the overall circuit resonance was arranged to fall on the same frequency as the piezo's natural resonant frequency?
If you haven't already, I'd sweep the piezo alone and see at what frequency it "sings" the loudest..i.e the fm here: (http://www.americanpiezo.com/piezo_theory/resonance_frequency.html). Then try to design the transformer windings so that the overall resonance is at the same frequency.
If resonance is the key, maybe it would work better this way.
.99
poynt99, thanks for the info, in the document you will notice Norm talk about how the golden mean ratio is critical in the Trafo winding and to always keep it in mind when designing . It strangely also does not produce the same power with out the 1.618 ratio, maybe this can explain the pyramids as tapping a resonant frequency..hmmm
Edit, whoops sorry missed the Q, check out the PDF, the winding and resonant frequency is listed there :)
Ash
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on January 28, 2009, 10:40:00 PM
Gustav, go get the same LEDS and signal Gen and light up 20 LEDS. I know your wrong, but i dont discuss this, read my prior posts.
Ash
I seen only the first one (lesson) if this was new published (and edit my questions)
If you have now published the true output in watt or mW , and are they not fishing in datasheets, than your experiments shown more seriosly. I will seen in future ..
Gustav Pese
P.S.
I write this because ALL 20 Leds can also lightning (bright) with only 20mA all together, in all total. Nobody must wast the time to recognize that with own experiments.
One more. We cant see, that you are using the old type 20mA Leds, not the newone that are
over 10 years to buy normally in shops the usin 2mA maximum and light also fine with less than 1mA. I belive that you will not "do" that. But any-else ? Better in, any way, is to se the flowing currents and power with test-equipments
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on January 29, 2009, 12:18:33 AM
poynt99, thanks for the info, in the document you will notice Norm talk about how the golden mean ratio is critical in the Trafo winding and to always keep it in mind when designing . It strangely also does not produce the same power with out the 1.618 ratio, maybe this can explain the pyramids as tapping a resonant frequency..hmmm
Edit, whoops sorry missed the Q, check out the PDF, the winding and resonant frequency is listed there :)
Ash
I was thinking something along the lines of this:
- The piezo element has it's own resonant frequency--somewhere in the ultrasonic region, probably around 40kHz.
- The combined LC resonance of the piezo and transformer inductance is at some optimum frequency.
- The magnet material itself will have its own specific resonant frequency (magnetostriction) which can be calculated by its dimensions if it is some regular form, which in this case it is not. It could be determined however by wrapping a heavy gauge low turn coil around the magnet and sweeping it to find the frequency at which it "sings" the loudest.
If resonance is the key to ou, then aligning the electrical and mechanical resonances in the unit should produce the best results.
Norm seems to have done something along these lines, but I'm curious how he determined his magnet was at a 8kHz resonance.
Ash, it is possible that in your first tests at ~70 kHz, you were operating the device at a harmonic of the piezo resonance, and now at 17kHz, you are at a sub-harmonic. Perhaps 32-35 kHz would give better results? Notice that Norm and Joel were using 32kHz.
Just some thoughts.
.99
Probably the best output could be got,
if the piezo is driven at its own resonance frequency
and the transformer resonance frequency is matched to it.
So try to measure the resonance frequency of the 2 parts alone
and then adjust the resonance frequency of the transformer with
an additional variable cap trimmer to get to the same
resonance frequency as the piezo has.
Then this should give a very nice output.
Regards, Stefan.
Brilliant Sterfan ;)
Hi poynt99 and Stefan.
Thanks Stefan, ill add into the PDF for all.
@poynt99 this could be right, i do know that our windings were different to Norms (Trafo) so this this is why we get different output puts. Now your driver circuit will be put to good use, Norm is now kindly sending us the original MRA magnet which was used in the patent application and i am told can reach 40 watts ,(256-1 OU). So lets use your driver circuit loop it back. Or with a 40 watt out, we should be able to at least get a DC audio amplifier input reading.
Ash
Ash,
Here's the "Simple Cheap Low Power Oscillators v1.0.pdf" design so far. Let me know if there is anything that you would like changed to better suit your needs.
.99
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item221
poynt99 outstanding man. We are not going to waste any time with this, will get onto it right away, we will keep the original MRA from the video for your driver circuit until we get it right, we are in in this for the long haul to deliver an open source device to all before this financial crash deviates most.
Will send over your Q's and circuit to Norm/Joel and the EVGRAY forums, thanks also to Stefan will get second opinions on it, this is what the OU forum should be , and is at its best.
I am glad to see this caliber of R and D here. Thank you gentlemen, We will try and prepare sources for the piezo for all to replicate with the results of the new magnet (40 watt out put estimated).
poynt99, this looks like a great start, well done and thanks so much man. Results will be posted. Thanks again poynt99, great document, will up date the course for all.
Ash
Guys just got this in from Norm
"Hi! Ash: Your "Soccer Ball" MRA core is in the mail so you should have it in about 10 days.
The piezo elements that you are using have a natural freq of 32khz, and a power handling capability
of 150 watts with up to 90V input. We had no problem of driving the piezo with a power amp
that has a 70V output. (paging amp) When trying to drive this piezo in a series resonant circuit at
high power you will know when you have a miss match of L and C for the piezo will go into a high
pitch squeal that will pierce your ears. Just like Hectors squealing pig description. You have to back
off your power and condition the circuit (warm up) for about 30 minutes to an hour before going to
high power. Remember the MRA will not perform if the elements in the circuit are cold. The MRA
is realy weird for it seems to self tune if allowed to settle in and achieve ambient room temperature
of around 70 degrees. Please observe the fact that a finely tuned MRA circuit when operating under
high power will build a "standing wave" or as Joel describes it as a "columar wave" that if caused to
suddenly colaspe will manifest a hugh pulse out of the ground side of the electrical circuit. This pulse
has many times destroyed light bulbs that were not even turned on at the time. The colaspe of this wave
can occur if you unload the secondary side of the circuit while under high power input. There is a hugh
amount of reflected energy that has no place to go except back into the primary and causes the piezo
element to react with this spike energy. Under the right conditions Joel and I have measured over
1000V oscillation between the piezo and the primary magnet winding while being driven with about
80VAC at the driving freq, 23.75khz as in the case of the "Soccer Ball" . Remember that the spike
will be from the ground side of the circuit into the neutral buss that you have your test equipment and
driving amp and signal generator plugged into. Joel and I have destroyed lots of good equipment and
amps because of this phenomenon, so be careful. Please refer to my article titled "Neutral Spike" to
get and understanding as to the power of this "negative electricity" that causes hugh current over very
small conductors and is described as "cold current" or radiant energy.
Thanks, Norm"
Update for the "Simple Cheap Low Power Oscillators v1.1.pdf" document.
Added Appendix 1 - Closing the Loop (is COP>1?) section with simple setup diagram.
Added current consumption spec.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item240
Regards,
.99
Thx mate!! updating the PDF now.
Major update for the Simple Cheap Low Power Oscillators V2.0 document.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item247
Color schematics, two sine wave generators added, updated text and formatting.
Regards,
.99
PS. Keep up to date with latest document links in my signature and at this new topic here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6888.0;topicseen
Brilliant Doc!!!, Thanks a lot my friend. We got the circuit working, we made the circuit so we can chop and change, i think your circuit will run the high power MRA, will be wound soon, you were right, it does not take a lot to run the circuit ;), great job man!!, the tricky part may be tuning it when looped, ill show you an interesting anomaly soon, we fired up the circuit and there was a huge surge when we tried to loop with 4 LEDS, (sweet spot?). You will have to see this to believe it, our meters went really weird, ill show you what happened will make a short 3G video of the circuit soon.
Guys, poynt's circuits work AND they work well, this is a great start for the MRA research, poynt thanks a lot man.
Here is the version one, cant wait to update to two, circuit lit up the 20 LEDS
http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rimg0076.jpg
Ash
Thanks Ash.
Next project is a nice one, and one that every electrical FE researcher should have.... a proper COP meter ;) This one will cast away all power measurement doubts for good.
.99
BIG MRA wound now
http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rimg0080.jpg
Guys Poynt 99 is also doing a COP watt meter circuit that will added to the
Simple cheap oscillator circuit in the MRA course on the panacea university
site.(current version 2 PDF is in the MRA course there)
We just need to build the sine driver circuit(listed in there) and can run this
on a 9Volt battery. If working ill send one up to Norm to confer results.
From poynt99
"Loopback should work fine as a "hidden" measuring tool, but don't expect
accurate AC measurements with cheapo meters (especially at 30-40kHz), and by
inserting them in series with a reactive circuit.
More on this later when you see my Watt/Joule/COP meter design and document."
-END
Ash
Dear Ash,
Why don't we make self runner system with a battery and add a fluorescent lamp to run forever? You can measure the battery voltage and prove OU easily.
Dr. Stifller already presented a very simple generator. Like Collpitts oscillator. You can fix its frequency via R and L values.
On the secondary side you convert electricity back to DC and load with a Resistor and show online DC measurements...
Here is the circuit http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm.. You can have full AC signal..
Hi samedsoft thanks for the suggestion :), ATM we are building specific circuits that go into the MRA , poynt's circuits work well :)
But if i can get a picture on what your saying we will build and test your circuit for the new bigger windings.
Can you adapt Dr. Stifller simple generator AND/or Like Collpitts oscillator onto the MRA?. That link went to the MEG are you talking about just adding the Circuit onto the MEG/.
sorry for being slow man. If you could give me more detial ill add it to the PDF and we can get to building after poynts new COP circuit and AC sine driver.
Ash
Ash
Having Poynt 99 on your team ,makes it a DREAM TEAM [The man is a HERO of this community]
God speed
Chet
ramset, looks like his COP circuit will give all open source engineers the edge, the idea is to get this measured in EVERY ONES language and get it open sourced.
You can thank poynt for it if it happens not me :)
I agree 100% my friend ;).
Ash
Ash, all. :) Thanks guys.
Please don't let the Joule/Watt/COP meter hold up any testing or building you are planning on. I am in the middle of design at the moment, and it is a fairly involved and somewhat advanced project, so it may not come quickly. The designs may be patentable, but I don't believe in patenting. It'll be here to freely share with all. It would be nice if there was a wiz-bang PCB designer that could volunteer to do up a design for this. I could do this myself, but it takes some time when you're not so proficient at it. Volunteers are welcome.
There will likely be two designs for the meter, one capable of measuring frequencies up to 1MHz, and a more expensive model capable of measuring frequencies up to 100MHz or better.
Of course both versions will measure well from DC on up to their respective limit.
Looping back if done correctly should do well to determine if COP>1. I'm trying my best to manage work, life, and design. Hopefully I can get the design out soon.
Regards,
.99
poynt99 thanks so much for all the hard work so far. Take your time my friend. Now i have some PCB software and may have a friend who can do it, please send across M8 when ready.
Ash
Hi Guys
Just though i would drop in and wish you guys good luck with the stuff you are doing over here, and i couldnt resist saying, that i have been helped by Poynt constantly in the last 2 years on various projects including what i am working on now, this guy is my brain so dont wear him out LOL
Great work Poynt keep it up.
Look foraward to seeing the meter design ;)
Cheers,
Peter
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on March 10, 2009, 08:01:58 PM
Can you adapt Dr. Stifller simple generator AND/or Like Collpitts oscillator onto the MRA?. That link went to the MEG are you talking about just adding the Circuit onto the MEG/.
Ash
Dear Ash,
Please check http://67.76.235.52/sgate.htm
and watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy8BJ6nq6Uk&feature=channel_page
You might find some correlation with MRA and spatial gate!
Please inform Norm and please send him best wishes from Turkey!!
Nuri Temurlenk
Hi Guys, Getting there with the new sine circuit, hope to have some thing significant to report to poynt et all this week.
Nuri thanks for sending across have posted this in the EVGRAY forum to Norm also.
Ash
Guys, Poynts COP circuit and the big boys tests
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7232502131400534844&hl=en
Near the end of the video you can see the new COP test circuit results and the grain of wheat tests with the big boy, i think we will need to wire a higher power one, I think we need bigger windings and better tests. One way to increase Q is to increase the inductance of the transformer. One way to do that is to increase the windings, but a better way is to increase the permeability of the ferrite core. Increasing the windings increases the resistance of the transformer which decreases Q.
We road tested the driver circuits that Poynt did, thanks man they work PERFECT. Strangely we got better results on the square driver ones. Now this new video has more of Norms MRA's added to the video and two new tests, we still need to do many more tests and make it complete.The video still has the avenue to do some thing about the patent office in Norm and Joels case, please consider helping this issue its easy.
All driver and rep info is in Norms PDF on the panacea university site. (color scheme still sucks tho, getting there).
More to come guys.
Ash