Hello everyone
ooups :(
i started this thread almost unwillingly but no problem i am probably emotionned
ok here we go
the aim of this topic is to realise an electric motor to power my ultralight aicraft
this aircraft already flies with differents electric motors
please see
Laurent
ok now what i try to do
an electric motor that spin slowly (about 1200 rpm ) to direct drive a propeller of 1.30 meter diameter which could push 50 kg and than will be able to let the ultralight cruise at about 60 kmh with the minimum electrical consumption.
that is to say that i wil try to reach about 12 to 15 kw output power with of course the minimal input power.
in other words it will be a big disk of magnets very light and high torque
thinking of this, i have seen on this forum the Perepiteia (very very interesting and promising just my advice visit it ) from Thane Heins and his work leads me to think of a special setup.
and here we are
i have thought that if i could get a coil through which a permanent magnet coul travel but non linear but along a circle path so we could obtain a circular solenoid motor. without the crankshaft and friction and and and...
so i thought of this
to make flat coil than curve it to obtain this
this is a U_coil
the advantage of this U-coil is that it doesn need a core to transmit its power to the magnet the magnet is "enveloped" in the coil as it would be in a solenoid but free to rotate to another coil to get new power and so on
i called this coil the U-corelesscoil (UCC)
I open this thread without any pretention but simply to share this idea and i hope that it will be interesting to you and that we will get good result in working together to see if this UCC has any value
so my first very crude prototype
based on this drawing
the very basic setup is powered by a 4.5 volt battery and the pulse is timed by a reedswitch
the rotor is made with a stack of 3 CD and i inserted 3 square neodymium magnets in slots at each 120 degrees.
the magnets has the polarity (they follow eacg other)
the reedswitch is clamped so i can tune at will
this setup is very easy to replicate and i encourage you to do ;)
Hi Laurent,
this looks very promising and refreshingly simple to adapt as an real motor.
Is it the next step in the evolution of Thanes work and your experience with your
Lynch-Motor?
Thanks for opening a separate thread for it.
and now let's go forward
1-- the first aim is to make a motor and it seems to be possible so how to improve it in the terms of high torque at slow spinning " YES WE CAN "
2- is it possible to get returning energy from the collapsing field in the UCC (U-CorelessCoil) to improve the ultralight flight duration. ?
so (as i recently posted some of this informations in the Perepiteia thread ) i got from one participant of thi forum under nick name Nali2001 a circuit to get this energy back and i made it and it works which is very encouraging
an other friend pmed me to try if it would be possible to get some generating possibilities by using a separate coil and the influence onthe main rotor
here the set up
and tomorrow the result ;)
i hope that this thread will be of interest
regards
Laurent
Yes it works,
Was ca 6...7 years ago (perhaps earlier ... or later ...) somewhere in German site,
Was disk magnets, axially magnetized ...perimetrically SN..NS...SN...NS ...
I found this link address when did read interesting stuff in some kind of Yahoo forum about electric motors ... LRK or ... who knows, dont remember ...
Father and son in Germany, both engineers, invented and patented ... was also 3-phase machine,
Was detailed description, explanations, drawings, pictures ...
I have tried to find again it several times during past few years - no way,
Perhaps some Deutscher Sprache member can help,
Cheers,
khabe
But you want to fly?
Im not sceptic - not at all, I like to build motors and I have built a lot of ... included "fly-able" ones,
But ... in principle I dont believe you can get any serious power from such kind of design ... main reason is
missing of flux returning parts from outer side - its funny and interesting thing - nice experiments , but not machine you need.
Quote from: woopy on February 02, 2009, 05:07:45 PM
and now let's go forward
1-- the first aim is to make a motor and it seems to be possible so how to improve it in the terms of high torque at slow spinning " YES WE CAN "
2- is it possible to get returning energy from the collapsing field in the UCC (U-CorelessCoil) to improve the ultralight flight duration. ?
so (as i recently posted some of this informations in the Perepiteia thread ) i got from one participant of thi forum under nick name Nali2001 a circuit to get this energy back and i made it and it works which is very encouraging
an other friend pmed me to try if it would be possible to get some generating possibilities by using a separate coil and the influence onthe main rotor
here the set up
and tomorrow the result ;)
i hope that this thread will be of interest
regards
Laurent
Mh-mhh,
Seems there you are doing wrongly.
Are these flat restangle magnets N in one side and S on another?
If yes then NO WAY!
Flux need to be by direction of circumference ... and placed as I described in my past message ->SN<->NS<- distance between adequate to size of your "coils".
cheers,
khabe
@Knabe
thank's for interest
please understand that i already fly with electric motors and it works very well and what i am looking for is not evasive ore negative answer to a proposal solution but your help to improve
and reach if it is possible a practical reality in full scale
so if you have something for helping you'r welcome
@all
if you can post photos or drawings of your proposals it would be very helpfull
thank's
happy landing
Laurent
Hi Laurent
Here is a link to circuits to help capture the bemf of pulsed coils. It explains the design concepts to help you understand why you would choose one design over another.
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/
If you succeed in building such a motor the concepts could be applied to a bicycle hub motor. There would be a large market for such a motor, especially if it doubled the distance traveled on a given battery. The market is in China where there are millions of Ebikes and Escooters.
Chris
thank's for interest
@sushimoto
the lynch motor is fantastic great torque and very good efficiency before flying i used them for gokarting incredible torque. But for flying it spin something too high ,My 1.3 meter prop spin at 2500 rpm and at this speed the blade tips are very noisy.
I think that for electric flight the prop has to be very silent so you can fly without disturbing the neighborhoud (for info the lynch motor get about 50 volts at about 280 amps and swings the prop at 2500 rpm which gives about 55 kg of push)
the aim of the DEK motor is to reduce the rpm to about 1200 with a 1.3 meter prop (of course i will have to enlarge the blades to absorb the power)
@Khabe
I enclose a better photo so you can see how the magnet are arranged with the polarity and timing
The motor UCC is the red one on the bottom of the set up the green coil (one large on the top and one thin on the right) are put there to make a test to use UCC as generator
When i short cut the green UCC the rotor speed drops a bit around 100 rpm. the large one drops more than the thin one (notice that both grenn UCC have the same turns number as the red motorUCC)
I will make better measurement as soon as possible.
@tishatang
very interesting link thank's i will study
@all
some drawings to make the DEK motor with UCC more clear i hope and why Lenz is boxing against himself in a UCC if it does ??
to be clear the small motor with the orange prop is not the DEK motor it is a load to see if there is some power to get from the BEMF of the red motor UCC (when the rotor spin at 1100 rpm the small dc motor spin at about 1680 rpm and the leds lit very brightly btw DEK is the name of my dog it comes from a joke we made in the Perepiteia thread :)
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on February 03, 2009, 05:59:40 AM
thank's for interest
@sushimoto
the lynch motor is fantastic great torque and very good efficiency before flying i used them for gokarting incredible torque. But for flying it spin something too high ,My 1.3 meter prop spin at 2500 rpm and at this speed the blade tips are very noisy.
I think that for electric flight the prop has to be very silent so you can fly without disturbing the neighborhoud (for info the lynch motor get about 50 volts at about 280 amps and swings the prop at 2500 rpm which gives about 55 kg of push)
the aim of the DEK motor is to reduce the rpm to about 1200 with a 1.3 meter prop (of course i will have to enlarge the blades to absorb the power)
<SNIP>
some drawings to make the DEK motor with UCC more clear i hope and why Lenz is boxing against himself in a UCC if it does ??
to be clear the small motor with the orange prop is not the DEK motor it is a load to see if there is some power to get from the BEMF of the red motor UCC (when the rotor spin at 1100 rpm the small dc motor spin at about 1680 rpm and the leds lit very brightly btw DEK is the name of my dog it comes from a joke we made in the Perepiteia thread :)
Laurent
Hi laurent,
thanks for answering and sorry for beeing a bit offtoppic.
I am very interested in UL (especially gyrocopters) and currently investigating on
"state of the art" motors. I think my path will be very much like yours.
Searching, whats best "off the shelf" and what can we do to enhance existing stuff.
Assuming that the Agni motor is best tested, why not using some gearbox or less volts in order to reduce rpm?
So i appreciate your experience and conclusion so far and will try to collaborate to your further experiments.
best regards,
@woopy
A suggestion:
While your new coil is still flat, twist it into a 'figure 8' shape before folding it into the 'figure U'.
Please consider the interesting polarities but test before deciding what those polarities are. You should see they are not what you may think.
I think this action may help your quest.
BEP
Quote from: woopy on February 03, 2009, 05:59:40 AM
thank's for interest
@Khabe
I enclose a better photo so you can see how the magnet are arranged with the polarity and timing
The motor UCC is the red one on the bottom of the set up the green coil (one large on the top and one thin on the right) are put there to make a test to use UCC as generator
When i short cut the green UCC the rotor speed drops a bit around 100 rpm. the large one drops more than the thin one (notice that both grenn UCC have the same turns number as the red motorUCC)
I will make better measurement as soon as possible.
Laurent
Yes, correct,
Anyway two magnets per each coil is twice better ...<->SN<->NS<->SN<->NS...
cheers,
khabe
Hereby one phase version ofConfrontational magnets - flux expanded widely between magnets - through coil wires - (this "meeting point" is what works with wires ("coil") by left hand rule ("motor rule"))
so - the right position is when : ...->NS<-/left side coil/->SN<-/right side coil/->NS<- ...
When 3-phases then windings B and C places between phase A,
Bit complicated to make those next windings but exercisable,
Regards,
khabe
@sushimoto
you are right in the track
but a gear box is heayy, make noise, is expensive, is subject to malfunction and loose efficiency . furthermore the lynch motor is already heavy 11 kg original and 7.5 kg as per the photos here above but after very expensive work and it is prototype
lowering the volts = lowering the power and we need quite a lot of watts to fly and especially for a gyrocopter which gliding perfo is not very high. But you could perhaps use a UCC to prerotate your gyrorotor
there is big outrunner motor type LRK which are light and very efficient Dr Werner Eck in germany makes something or Yuneec for paramotoring (simply Google these names) but all are spinning quite high. Another problem with these motor are the controllers very expensive at not always reliable.
so the idea here is to make a very large disk ( about 40 to 50 centimeter diameter , perhaps a bicycle wheel) and very thin with magnets around and to pulse-push these magnets with UCCs. the UCCs will not be all around the disk but there will be about 5 to and 6 UCCs each powered separately with 50 amps (at 56 volts)and than you regulate the power by adding or supressing the alimentation on theUCC. The more connected UCCs(in parallel) the more power on the disk It will be something as a geared electrical variation. I will post a drawing of the idea :P
@BEP
thank's for interest
i tried the 8 UCC and also a 8XUCC
the 8UCC attract strongly the magnet to it's center but as the magnet is twisted 90 degree in comparison with the UCC the magnet is also attracted sideway against the coil. Inside the UCC the pulse current pushes the magnet from one side to the other. Feel free to test yourself it so easy to do and full of learning ;) in the 8xUCC this a"bordel" flux path ???
Laurent
Hi Laurent,
I posted a drawing in thanes thread how to catch the energy back to the driving battery ( NiCd I proposed )
This is the most effective way because using another bypass to catch reactive-emf in another electronic element will mean another loss of energy. It simply does not make sense to do this.
I wonder why you have choosen the complicated way. You always have to think of losses with each additional element placed in the circuit ( current-path)
In the proposed way you can watch how the NiCd reloads or the other way around : how it is drained which I hope it will do not.
Now why do I insist on this : I have done a lot of innovative development during the last 20 years, both electronically and in software-enngineering.
One thing I have learned the hard way : Do not go ahead with two many steps at one time neglecting basic steps necessaray in the first place. Just finish the basics.
Next systematic development-step in your case would be to find out how this one coil works with this one magnet.
What is the estimated input and output. And of course eliminate errors ( losses by unnecessary element used )
Again : Why do I say this ? Because if the basic function is not satisfactory the following steps in development can be obliterated and you have to find a new way.
Think for youself of the time you might save. I have watched too many people fallen into this trap.
I repost the pics here again.
Regards
Kator01
Hi Kator01,
sorry for chiming in here but I would like to understand your circuit on catching the energy back to the driving battery.
You showed two current directions, forward in blue and backwards in red. If you mean the forward current is flowing when the reed switch is ON then I understand it but what potential or voltage difference gives the backward current via the diode? Because the switch must be OFF to get the flyback pulse's energy, right? What am I missing?
Please explain.
thanks, Gyula
Hi Gyula,
no sorry for chiming in here, gyla. It really like it if you guys are attentive.
As a understand Laurents setup the reed is switched on while the magnet is approaching the coil. Which magnet he uses for this is not of importance, meaning it must not be the one just aproaching the coil. However Laurent did not answer my question (I asked twice ) how he starts moving the disc in the first place. But anyhow I assume he sort of starts spinning it manually.
Now the reed-switch closes ( upon approaching of the magnet) blue forward-current energizes the coil->magnet is attracted more so -> magnet recedes from the coil ( reed switches off )-> Red Reactive reverse.-current ( not Back-EMF) which has its positve side now at the reed-switch and the negative-polarity at the left end of the coil flow via diode to the negative terminal of the battery.
I have to emphasize again the difference between Back-EMF and Reactive-EMF. I already explained it in the thanes-thread. I once saw a good video which explained it very well.
The Reactive-EMF ( if the reed is open ) is caused by the break-down of the magnetic field-energy stored up in and around the space of the coil ( set up by the forwad-current) and can be catched in thee ways : The way I presented it, meaning back to the battery, or seperately in a condenser or as a reversed magnetic field by shorting the coil right after the the reed has opened which then either exerts a pull or push onto the passing magnet ( this is happening in thanes setup )
The Back-EMF is the resistive voltage arrising in a coil which acts against the forward-current trying to rise to its full value.Back-EMF is occurring as a companion and at the same instant the forward-current wants to rise.
It can not be watched or measured as a seperate phaenomenon. You only can observe it by the time-delay of the forward-current rising. ( phase-angle )
This is very important to distinguish so we will not get mixed up wtih terms.
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on February 03, 2009, 11:26:35 AM
Now the reed-switch closes ( upon approaching of the magnet) blue forward-current energizes the coil->magnet is attracted more so -> magnet recedes from the coil ( reed switches off )-> Red Reactive reverse.-current ( not Back-EMF) which has its positve side now at the reed-switch and the negative-polarity at the left end of the coil flow via diode to the negative terminal of the battery.
Hi Kator01,
I still have the problem of the reverse current flowing through the diode : How can that current flow when the right hand side of the coil (which is connected to the reed switch) is an open circuit? The diode's cathode is connected to the left hand side of the coil and if you say the reactive reverse current comes from the coil when the reed is OFF, then how can it flow when the coil is an open circuit?
this has been my problem, ok?
thanks, Gyula
@Khabe
hoho! very nice design :o
did you do this thing in reality ? it is exactly what i am looking for
thank's very much for the 2 magnets per UCC idea and i have made a small test with a linear 3 magnets train in a UCC it pushes very well much better than the same setup with only one magnet so we could perhaps stay simple organise a disk with more time 1 UCC pushing-pulling a 3 magnets train but yoursetup is very interesting
@Kator01
thank's for following on this thread and for the shema you posted the problem is that all my electronic knowledge comes from what i learned on Perepiteia and my first test with this DEK motor so please be patient i will try to be a good student and i apreciate what you do :).
To start the motor there is 2 ways one to spin the rotor manually second to place the reed actuator-magnet so it shut the reed and put the power on and it starts
cheers
Laurent
@all
Everything is going fast today whaouuuu!! ;D
thanks to the idea of Khabe i made a further investigation and find out that a " train " of 3 magnets is powerfull and than i made a test of what happens outside the UCC and the flux is also there but of course in the counter way so i think to take out the whole power of a UCC we can do like this ( attached drawing see polarities)
OK i think we approach a way to get a torquy low speed DEK motor and now the timing reedswitch hallswitch optoswitch frictionswitch otherswitch ?? and for the nextstep and the highpowerchampion how about the power stage and finally for the electronicdoctors how about to recuperate the collapsing field ??
cheers
Laurent
Sorry gyulasun,
too much traffic going on at the moment in my mind - got it all mixed up.
See attached pic with corrected diode-position.
Kator01
Quote from: woopy on February 03, 2009, 08:48:22 AM
i tried the 8 UCC and also a 8XUCC
the 8UCC attract strongly the magnet to it's center but as the magnet is twisted 90 degree in comparison with the UCC the magnet is also attracted sideway against the coil. Inside the UCC the pulse current pushes the magnet from one side to the other. Feel free to test yourself it so easy to do and full of learning Wink in the 8xUCC this a"bordel" flux path Huh
Is your pet of the Bordel breed?
I see your magnet orientation would do exactly as you have said. My suggestion was a variation of the transverse flux method. It will not work with your magnet orientation. Sorry :)
Laurent and All
I may be crazy and getting old and senile, but yesterday was a day of synchronicity for me. On the same day this thread was started there was this post on the Gray tube thread here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6675.msg154832;topicseen#msg154832
Referencing this video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azfxP9lBAao
The application is applying high voltage static electricity across the coil and opposite polarity to the low voltage DC current. The collision creates extreme motive power not attained by just the low voltage.
Laurent, design your motor with this high voltage potential across the coil in mind. Maybe this the way to get your power with light weight, no cores necessary. This is a new ball game and the known laws of flux density with a given current will have to be rewritten.
If this works, no need to have large gauge wire to carry large current adding weight. Maybe you could salvage windings from old TV yokes. Then carefully re-bend them to your configuration. This would give you four coils per yoke of finer many turns coils ready made. Then choose a bicycle wheel diameter in proportion to the resulting size coil for your prototype. You could use the fly-back transformer of the TV for the high voltage source. Maybe someone has a photo for Laurent of an old yoke to see what I am talking about?
You could attach an insulated wire, or maybe a rubber strap on you airplane behind the propeller. Maybe just a piece of coax cable? Attached a wire to the leading edge and a wire to the trailing edge. These wires would be brought in and connected to the motor coils in the correct polarity. The airstream flowing over the wire should generate high voltage static electricity?
Anyway, food for thought.
Chris
Hi Chris,
absolutly no idea how the high voltage is applied in this setup.
A lot of talking about weak magnets etc but no circuit-diagram how he applied the hv.
Any idea or better knowledge how this is done ?
What I could get from the vid is that he fires a sparkplug not using the gap but a black cable which might lead the
hv-discharge-current in one part of the coil. So this would mean that there is no static-electricity there is a puls.
And if there is a puls then there is current and this is not a small amount of current .
Kator01
Regards
Kator01
Hi Chris
houlala i hope that there will be a good possibility but i wiil wait until better understandind and diagram for this technology.
at the present i am making measurement around a pulsed UCC as per picture here under
what i have noticed so far is
there is a train of 9 magnet s beeing inflenced by the pulsed UCC 3 in the axis and 3+3 sideway along the axis
if the force of the pulsion on the center magnet is equal to( let's say ) 1 than the following magnet which are outside of the UCC get 0.5 force each (one repelling and one attracting) that is for the central magnets 1 +0.5 + 0.5 = 2
the sideway magnet get less force and the one traveling in the middle of the UCC get a force of 1 and the following magnet get a force of 0.25 each (attracting and repelling ) so that is for the outside magnets 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25 =1 and as there is two side the force =1 + 1 = 2
so to resume a UCC with one magnet give a motive force of 1 and if you organise a "train of 9 magnets you get a motive force of 4 under the same pulse.
elle est pas belle la vie!! ;D
Laurent
Use 4 big cylindrical magnets and feed the coil with DC. If you want more info tell me.
Edit: Just realized that the suggestion wouldn't work.
Quote from: Kator01 on February 03, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
Sorry gyulasun,
too much traffic going on at the moment in my mind - got it all mixed up.
See attached pic with corrected diode-position.
Kator01
OK, thanks! Maybe a small update at Thane's thread is also in order where you uploaded the previous schematics.
rgds, Gyula
ouups :(
just a small correction of course in the outside traveling magnet the one in the center get only 0.5 force and not 1 as i mentionned but the total result is 4 anyway
@all
to the interested people whou intend to help for the timing method i enclose a picture of the one i use very simple you get a CD box and normally on the top of it there is a blank CD transparent for protection and than you make your division as you think and let spin the transparent disk with the marking to practically see what happen good luck
@BEP
just for fun i found a picture of the 8UCC and the very tortured and bordelic 8XUCC ;D
good night
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on February 04, 2009, 04:44:54 PM
@BEP
just for fun i found a picture of the 8UCC and the very tortured and bordelic 8XUCC ;D
good night
Laurent
The green one is very much like mine. I've been looking for the photos of mine - not found so far. The coil creates a well defined dipole field between the loops that is completely surrounded by a larger reverse field.
I used mine to rotate a large copper disc. It was interesting to have the two fields turn inside-out on reversal.
BEP
@BEP
very interesting what you said about rotating a coper disk with a 8UCC please go on searching for the photos i made a
test today with a new 44 turns ( i will try to make all the comparison with 44 turns of 0.5 mm copper wire wound around a varta battery of 4.5 volt and under the same battery power of 4.5 volts its takes me about 5 minutes to make one UCC so please replicate and retrofit your experience) 8UCC and it could be interesting also for what i am looking for.
@all
see how i make very cheap rapid and accurate test to give the direction and power work for the fine tuning i hope the Doctors will come in ;)
and now let's go for the real things i ordered the magnets this morning and let's go to the workshop
of course and please idea for the timing power stage and finally but atmost important the recovering of collapsing field
good night at all
et que la joie demeure! ;D
Laurent
I've just built a pulse motor testbed with precision bearings. I will be experimenting with DEK UCC on it first.
I have not started the software yet, but initial specs are:
timing phase (10th degree resolution)
timing pulse width (10th degree resolution)
show RPM
show input power (true RMS)
I've ran the motor up using just the reed switch and it runs OK. The magnets are diametrically polarised, the poles appear on opposite sides of the circumference, the coil is 6cm diameter circle, 100 turns of 30AWG.
I am thinking of experimenting with shorting the coil during the exit phase by using a fast relay controlled by the micro, I'm hoping that maybe the perepetia effect can be made to appear and the BEMF can provide a physical kick out.
Woopy
looks like you hired a specialist [for your elec Doc]
Yucca that belongs in a museum [of tomorrows history]
Absolutely BEAUTIFUL build
Chet
@ yucca
almost a swiss master piece :)
yes i am very happy that somebody takes the time to really experience the UCC and how it works and not only how it works, but you intend to do what i am not knowleged enough (yet) to do that is studying the details of the working principles
and the output possibilities of the collapsing field
thank's a lot
@Ramset
This thread is the first one where i go in but i have in mind that we all have to do something to overcome a very mondial critical situation. I can say to you that 3 years ago i probably would have spent easily 10 000 euros to patent each of my ideas and i did it for the 3 previous decades and i have really spent around more than 100 000 euros for that . Furthermore i was very sceptical to open my brain to this forum but it happens a very special history to a good inventor friend of mine he patented one of his idea (a very good one of course) the patent was world wide granted and of course he spent the mondial fees for that and each years of course and i can say to you that there is very very expensive and 9 (nine ) years after the worlwilde granting a big company got interested to the idea and as this company pay lawers at full job they always come to results and they found a failure in the patent result patent zero think of it !!!!!!!
@all
i am going on for the torquy DEK motor
the magnets are here and now lets go to the details i will need probably 3 to 4 days to make the magnet holdings on the wheel + one or 2 days for the axle organisation
so the helpers have 2 or 3 days from now to inform me how about the coils ;) Gauge turns bifilar i have heard of Bob Teal winding (very interesting) with strong energy recovering ?
input power one KOKAM lithium polymer battery 40 AH ( 40 amps) 14 elements of 3.7 volt nominal = 51.8 volts 4.2 volt maximal at end of charge voltage =58.8 peak volts
input power max 300 amps at 50 volts = 15 000 watts (15 kw) max for 1 minute
than about 6 to 8 kw for cruise flight
bravo a tous !
Laurent
Yes Ramset i have some knowledge and very wide but not so precise as you think that's why i need you competence to go forward
and of course
i forgot the pictures of the project :o
good night all
Laurent
Thanks Laurent and Chet, it´s not as pretty up close as it looks on the photos ;). I only have a hand saw for wood and one file and no vice so my hands are still aching. I bent the acrylic on my gas stove and also put lots of tiny bubbles in it. :(
I will make a special strobe light: I will put red and green LEDs pointing at the coil, and stick white circles on the magnets, then I can light the LEDs with the micro like this:
Green for the coil on time.
Red for the coil short time.
This method combined with oscilloscope over the coil should help to get a physical feel for what´s going on.
My progress will be slow but steady, I have about 10 spare hours a week for doing this. I predict the microcontroller will take a couple of weeks to program.
Nice set of magnets you have Laurent, I will keep looking in regularly at your experimental building.
Also I may understand what happened when that outrunner delaminated a magnet:
The nickel coating might have had a tiny imperfection where it was not stuck properly to the magnet, the imperfection could have been very tiny.
During takeoff (max power) the tiny piece of nickel foil with air underneath got heated through eddy current and began to vaporise.
As it vaporised it made the imperfection larger and so more nickel foil became free, this caused more vaporisation etc. a runaway explosive effect.
To cure it you could remove the nickel coating from your magnets (use slow electrolysis through nickel and copper salt mix) and then recoat your magnets by dipping them in epoxy marine paint. I have never tried this myself so try with a scrap magnet first.
@yucca
very good idea for the magnet 's delamination i will report to the manufacturer and see what they think
@all
i had a good discussion today with some friends of mine an we discussed of a possible working principle of the UCC
first how the Nali2001 circuit could bring back energy to spin a 3 volts small engine and prop + 3 leds it seems to be that the Nali 2001 circuit transform a part of the the JOULE (heat) accumulated in the coil during the powering pulse back in electrical power without this recovery circuit this energy would be "lost " in heat unless of course you need heat ;D anyway very good for the efficiency !! :)
second i make an experiment
if you remember on the DEK proto motor i fited a UCC to work as a generator the result was very clear it was a AC current (unable to spin a DC motor)+ a strong decelarating of the the rotor
so today i tested a new setup with the same "generator" UCC but this time i put a Reed switch to get only the generation output when the magnet passed inside the UCC(see picture) so i got the current of only 1 directional movement of the magnet inside the UCC that is DC current and it eems that the the BEMF is very very small is it due to the fight of Lenz against himself ??? of course this little set up is not very reliable and i encourage you to test yourself
very interesting
good night
Laurent
@woopy
In ucc-boxing.jpg, area marked 'match null'.....
Please be aware that beyond an unknown distance the net will not be zero or even close to zero. If the distance is too great you should find one end of the magnet using attraction as inverse square while the other attraction is inverse cubed.
So, basically I suggest minimizing the distance of magnet travel from one loop of the coil to the other loop.
This distance will require experimentation. In any case the net should not be exactly null.
This device is intriguing, does it work? ...is there a movie of it?
I like the coil also, it's simple - easy to manufacture, similar to how they do bent coils in real manufacturing.
@BEP
I agree the relation between the length ( N-S) of the magnet and the UCC legs is probably very important.
Have you some idea of what to do for the begining i have thought that the length of the magnet (N-S) would be the half of the gap between the UCC legs ??
very good your magnet test system with a Ampclampmeter very instructive comparisons :)
@jadaro2600
exactly as you said it is very simple to do and you will see that it works very well i don't have movies untill now
@all
and now i have to buy a scope to inspect the details
i am very happy to learn a new matter :) as my favorite one is aerodynamics and flying machines
good night
Laurent
@BEP and all
this night i had a new idea
to avoid the reedswitch for a generator UCC and avoid the precision of the commutation along the translation of the magnet through the UCC i have thought that the magnet could rotate in the center of the UCC
I rapidly tested this setup this morning and it gives a AC voltage
on the picture the black cylinder above is the prime mover (the electronics around is nothing connected to nothing ) the magnet is a ring diametraly magnetised (from a Faulhaber glocken anker motor) it seems, i say it seems that when i shorted the coil there is no detectable deceleration of the primover
but of course this set up is very poor i will try to make a bigger rotor in a bigger UCC (with more windings) to better investigate
good luck
Laurent
hello every one
he he !! : )what about the idea of a n UCC insider rotating magnet ???
i made a bigger test to night with very interesting results as of the the distance and the separation of the legs and and and so here some pictures
see the difference between a "squared UCC and a flat UCC the power different seems to be very linked to the geometry of the UCC
very very intersting
good night
laurent
@ all
i go on to understand better the UCC working principle :P
the rotating magnet inside the UCC is more complex that what i imagined but very interesting :)
here under some of my last understanding of the UCC
some of the pictures have been taken out from internet (so i don't know if there is any copyright but as there is in private and good way use, i think there will be no problem)
just something in the last picture they say "Work is done during the motion & it is transferred as electrical energy " so if the UCC will need no (or very little) WORK (because Lenz boxing against Himself if it is!!) how is it possible to get
it working as a motor or as a generator ??? ???
commentar are welcome
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on February 10, 2009, 05:08:13 PM
@ all
i go on to understand better the UCC working principle :P
the rotating magnet inside the UCC is more complex that what i imagined but very interesting :)
here under some of my last understanding of the UCC
some of the pictures have been taken out from internet (so i don't know if there is any copyright but as there is in private and good way use, i think there will be no problem)
just something in the last picture they say "Work is done during the motion & it is transferred as electrical energy " so if the UCC will need no (or very little) WORK (because Lenz boxing against Himself if it is!!)
Quote
how is it possible to get it working as a motor or as a generator ??? ???
commentar are welcome
Laurent
Try this!!
It will charge batteries as a bedini motor.
Jesus
Is there a different between lenz and lentz? as spelled in the title?
Looking for a clarification.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 13, 2009, 12:35:29 AM
Is there a different between lenz and lentz? as spelled in the title?
Looking for a clarification.
No it's just a typo.
OK, I've finished my pulsemotor testbed with UCC coil and done some rough programming just to get it running.
The strobe light system works well after putting black and white tape indicators over the magnets. The green sector is the delay between reed switch signal and coil firing. The red sector is the short width pulse into the coil.
I can adjust the delay and the width using a small joystick switch next to the screen.
The motor runs at 1000rpm using about 10mA at 9V.
Now I have to build the BEMF recycling circuit and also program it better so that the timing is relative to the RPM rather than just static delays.
@yucca
Nice work!
where did you get that electronic board?
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 07:56:08 AM
@yucca
Nice work!
where did you get that electronic board?
Jesus
Hi, Thanks Jesus,
The brown board is a cheapo prototyping board as you probably know, I presume you're asking about the blue board: It's a freeduino microcontroller board. You buy them cheaply and you get free programming tools for windows. You just need a USB cable like a printer cable, nothing else to buy. Stacked on top is a nokia LCD screen, again cheaply available.
You program it up using C language. I will be developing the pulsemotor program so that the user can specify all aspects of timing in tenths of degrees, so 3600 steps per revolution accuracy.
I chose this route because I thought when you're hunting for magnetic anomolies it's good to have reproducible conditions for different coil and mag setups and also good to have an accurate RPM meter. When I evaluate the running I ignore the current draw of the controller unit which is about 110ma at 9V. I just look at the current draw of the coil driver circuit (on the brown board). I'm hoping I might be able to make this current be negative with much more experimenting using Thanes (@crankypants) Perepetia effect.
If you or anyone else wanted to get a controller unit and you dont know C language (yet) then I could give you the pulse motor program via PM and then you just need to click your mouse to program it up. It's a very handy system for researching pulse motors of different configurations.
you can buy the controller and screen board from a UK company here, they have fast and reasonable international shipping:
micro board:
http://www.nuelectronics.com/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1&zenid=4acea1063d04071e9cf1c8785ccdf53f
screen board:
http://www.nuelectronics.com/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=10
Yucca.
@Woopy,
I've been thinking about your questions about the UCC. In my mind I don't think in standard drive mode (ala Bedini) the UCC can go overunity in a pulsemotor any easier than a regular solenoid coil. But what attracts me to the UCC is the fact that it is a two phase coil. It has N S S N polarisation as you travel through it. And so I think that maybe on one phase we can apply drive and on the other phase we can short the coil like Thanes perepetia and then maybe coupled with BEMF collection we could go OU. In such a mode of operation the coil would probably start cooling down, a powerful OU motor running on this principle would probably be covered in frost. I have to say though that without a core we won't get enough torque to run a prop. I am thinking that maybe a core could be made for it though, it would be two seperate saddles that U around each circular segment. How this could be manufactured at home I don't know, maybe epoxy loaded with iron powder?
@Jadaro2006 and Broli
yes simply typo excuse me :-\
@Nievesliveras
thank' for interest and proposition can you be more precise about the components value of your circuit ?
@Yucca
very nice job congratulation wayting for the next results
i like the proposal of using one leg of the UCC as motor and the the second one shorted as BEMF recup or generating "Ã la Thane"
i have recieved my oscilloscope yesterday and i begin to get used with it it is surely also THE instrument to investigate how it works
@all
I like very much what is going on with this thread i learn a lot on a quite new matter for me every day and only for that it is worth
my supposition on " Lenz boxing against himself" is not verified at all untill now with the UCC on the contrary it seems to be "Lenz pushing himself"
i have made some test with pendulum magnets traveling through shorted UCC and the UCC clearly damps the pendulum movement so the BEMF seems to be always there :-[
anyway lets go on :)
btw i have got my copy of "Peter Lindemann Electric motor secret DVD" and i wondered if it was possible to decrease the so called "efficiency masking BEMF effect" by using a long distance between the legs of the UCC so to say to get "long middle torquy stroke pulse " and not "short explosive pulse" ??
cheers
Laurent
Quote from: Yucca on February 14, 2009, 11:47:53 AM
Hi, Thanks Jesus,
The brown board is a cheapo prototyping board as you probably know, I presume you're asking about the blue board: It's a freeduino microcontroller board. You buy them cheaply and you get free programming tools for windows. You just need a USB cable like a printer cable, nothing else to buy. Stacked on top is a nokia LCD screen, again cheaply available.
You program it up using C language. I will be developing the pulsemotor program so that the user can specify all aspects of timing in tenths of degrees, so 3600 steps per revolution accuracy.
I chose this route because I thought when you're hunting for magnetic anomolies it's good to have reproducible conditions for different coil and mag setups and also good to have an accurate RPM meter. When I evaluate the running I ignore the current draw of the controller unit which is about 110ma at 9V. I just look at the current draw of the coil driver circuit (on the brown board). I'm hoping I might be able to make this current be negative with much more experimenting using Thanes (@crankypants) Perepetia effect.
If you or anyone else wanted to get a controller unit and you dont know C language (yet) then I could give you the pulse motor program via PM and then you just need to click your mouse to program it up. It's a very handy system for researching pulse motors of different configurations.
you can buy the controller and screen board from a UK company here, they have fast and reasonable international shipping:
micro board:
http://www.nuelectronics.com/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1&zenid=4acea1063d04071e9cf1c8785ccdf53f
screen board:
http://www.nuelectronics.com/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=10
Yucca.
Thanks @yucca
This is the moment to buy those electronic boards, but at the moment my budget does not allow me to buy them.
Maybe I will regret not have buyed the boards. But I cant spend money. I am unemployed now.
Another thing is that the price is displayed in other country currency, maybe in dollars is three times the amount.
Thank you anyway.
Jesus
Quote from: woopy on February 14, 2009, 05:32:10 PM
i have recieved my oscilloscope yesterday and i begin to get used with it it is surely also THE instrument to investigate how it works
Laurent, be very careful when scoping pulsed coils with your scope. It is easy to damage an oscilloscope, I once learnt the hard way. I always use a 100x probe when going near pulse motors with my scope.
Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 05:33:00 PM
Thanks @yucca
This is the moment to buy those electronic boards, but at the moment my budget does not allow me to buy them.
Maybe I will regret not have buyed the boards. But I cant spend money. I am unemployed now.
Another thing is that the price is displayed in other country currency, maybe in dollars is three times the amount.
Thank you anyway.
Jesus
That´s a shame, the currency is UK pound which is very low at the moment. I´m sure the arduino and freeduino boards will be around for a long time yet so you could get one in the future maybe.
You may still find it useful to put a LED in circuit that lights when the coil is on, this allows you to see where the coil fires relative to the magnet and is great for getting a "feel" for coil mag setups. It´s good to see where the pulse is when you´ve tuned for optimum.
All the best, Yucca.
Quote from: woopy on February 14, 2009, 05:32:10 PM
...
@Nievesliveras
thank' for interest and proposition can you be more precise about the components value of your circuit ?
...
cheers
Laurent
Forgive me I did not see this question before.
The answer is here:
The resistance can be from 10 ohms to 680 ohms. I usually use 100 ohms and works well.
The transistor could be any NPN. I ususally use 2N2222A.
The diode could be even an LED with the cathode to the base. I usually use 1N4001.
@yucca
I will get some money and buy the freeduino board with the other one, I forgot its name now, soon.
Jesus
Hello Jesus,
just another question concerning your Battery-Charger :
How is the arragement of the magents ?
Opposite poles - one facing the left - the other facing the right side of the coil ?
Thank you
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on February 17, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
Hello Jesus,
just another question concerning your Battery-Charger :
How is the arragement of the magents ?
Opposite poles - one facing the left - the other facing the right side of the coil ?
Thank you
Kator01
I think so, but.
That is not my battery charger. That is @woopy's motor with a bediini trigger added the way that is done by the the team at @pirate's thread.
He asked for an idea and I gave him that one. But the magnet arrangement of his motor is explained by him on this very topic a few pages back.
Thanks for your interest.
Jesus
Hi Jesus,
which pirate you mean ; Pirate88179 ??
And which thread : Jule thieve ?
Kaotr01
all !
Any E input - E output meassurements ?
You have (or allmost) finished your prototypes and are pretty neat and precise
so if any Lentz disturbance is occuring - hopefully there would be some energy output inconsistency...
anyway twiching Lentz anyhow is interesting and may result in E benefits.
Wiz
Kator
the link to the pirate
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.3040;topicseen
Chet
Quote from: Kator01 on February 18, 2009, 12:37:08 PM
Hi Jesus,
which pirate you mean ; Pirate88179 ??
And which thread : Jule thieve ?
Kaotr01
That is correct.
Jesus
@all
I am testing all what is possible with UCC (within my possibilities of course)
the test bench is very simple as usual i simply let pendel and swing different arrangement of magnets through different UCC and scope the results
at the first glance Lenz is a very CORIACE boxer and does not intend to be beaten so easily even against himself :P
@ Yucca
i will probably need your soft to go forward so if your offer is always in value i am very interested
good luck at all
Laurent
Hi Laurent,
Your oscilloscope looks very nice with maths functions, what make/model is it?
Yes, I have finished the software for now, so if you do order boards then I can PM you the software anytime you like. Then you just load the program and solder wires onto the controller.
The software now has these features:
User can specify even number of rotor magnets in one line of the code before programming.
adjustable delay period specified in tenths of degrees. (also displayed in microseconds).
adjustable pulse width specified in tenths of degrees. (also displayed in microseconds).
accurate RPM readout.
Strobe light LEDs.
Optional audio feedback click once per revolution.
I plan on adding one more delay and one more pulse output for further experiments.
My motor has been running for over 24hrs at 200RPM consuming about 40mW, when I throttle it up it throws magnets at 1500RPM because they are only stuck on with doublesided tape. I want to build a wheel that will go faster.
@yucca
here a picture with denomination of the scope
i have ordered today the 2 moduls for programing the timing
as soon as they arrive i will contact you for your soft
@all
completely out of topic !! and just for fun i used my UCC pendulum test to try to replicate the Veljko Milkovic small pendulum chariot it took me half an hour to build this crappy replication but it works fine and it is really fascinating to see the gravity walking horizontaly :o perhaps it will be a new thread for this purpose
good night
Laurent
@all
I did not want to say anything yet, but I am having a tremendous success!!!!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158838#msg158838
Jesus
@all
in process in the workshop and waiting for my timer why not powering the pendulum of a Milkovic 2 stage oscillator with a UCC
in the picture the pendulum is a stack of magnets and now let's make the circuit to time it right
the wheel in the middle works with a ratchet system at the present it is much too crude to be effective but let's experiment we will anyway get something interesting ;D
good luck
Laurent
Hello Laurent,
this chariot-pendulum : how did you power it ?
Via the coils ?
Do you have a link to the original website where there is a description of this device ?
Really good stuff Laurent
Regards
kator
woopy I have a few predictions to your motor and I would feel real honored if you tried them out?
First I predict your motor will work as good if you used two (or even three) separate oppositely wound coils instead of a single U coil.
My second prediction concerns shielding one pole of the magnets. I predict this will give you substantially better results. You'll need to shield the pole that enters these coils first. Shielding should not be perfect. This prediction can be tried without the first to see if it's true.
And my third prediction. Instead of shielding them you could use two magnets stuck together and repelling each other on the rotor.
All these predictions may be wrong but I would REALLY appreciate it if you experimented with them.
@Kator
no i do not use coil for propelling the chariot i only used the Hard drive axis that i i use to test the UCC by pendeling magnets through the UCC
i mean that the chariot works only with gravity i simply let the 2 pendulum "fall down" by gravity and the chariot go forward as Milkovic does with its chariot on his desk in the video of its original site. You can get it very easily with Google simply type MILKOVIC and you get a lot of info on this man and his very interesting work.
@ Broli
thank's but can you be more precise i have seen that you are a very good designer so some pictures would be helping
"@Nieves
thank's for sharing
very nice work
are you solving the high voltage versus power output ??
cheers
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on February 25, 2009, 04:00:57 PM
"@Nieves
thank's for sharing
very nice work
are you solving the high voltage versus power output ??
cheers
Laurent
What I am trying to solve is the voltage disappearing mistery. The voltage is on the batteries until you use them with a load, that the voltage just disappear.
The circuit seems to charge the battery, but the charged battery cannot be used.
Jesus
Quote from: woopy on February 25, 2009, 04:00:57 PM
@ Broli
thank's but can you be more precise i have seen that you are a very good designer so some pictures would be helping
Laurent
Oke I have used your existing drawing. This should need no further explanation. You might need to experiment with putting the shield on either sides. Because you might get a negative effect of attraction past TDC instead of the push you would want.
Edit: I forgot to draw in the two magnets repelling suggestion. But surely this doesn't need an illustration. Just stick two magnets, that are repelling, together and replace it with your current magnets and discard the shield suggestion.
@Broli
thanks i understand better what you mean
@Yucca
hehe i have received the Freeduino today :)
i am downloading the necesseraly soft and drivers
can you post or pm your brown cicuit and how you made the alimentation and connection of freeduino?
and of course if it is always actual i would be very happy to get your programation ( i remember that i am far from beeing a champion in electronic and i learn every day thanks to this forum which is very interesting)
cheers
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on February 27, 2009, 08:47:44 AM
@Yucca
hehe i have received the Freeduino today :)
i am downloading the necesseraly soft and drivers
can you post or pm your brown cicuit and how you made the alimentation and connection of freeduino?
and of course if it is always actual i would be very happy to get your programation ( i remember that i am far from beeing a champion in electronic and i learn every day thanks to this forum which is very interesting)
cheers
Laurent
Hi Laurent,
You wont be disapointed ;) You might want to think about getting a spare arduino chip for the board just incase you blow it, I haven´t blown one yet, but I keep a couple spare just in case because they are really cheap considering the chip is quite a powerful little computer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Arduino-Diecimila-ready-Atmel-processor-ATMEGA168-20PU_W0QQitemZ380097884976QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Electronic_Components?hash=item380097884976
For the driver circuit you will need:
OPTION1:
=================================
1)
Any common N channel FET (I use IRF730)
2)
FET Driver IC with 5V supply capability (I use UCC27322) the driver IC makes sure the FET switches hard on, without the driver IC the microcontroller signal (5v) will only partially switch the FET on and it will have a high SourceDrain resistance, this will waste lots of power as heat.
OPTION2:
=================================
You can use a "logic level FET" without needing a driver IC which is simpler.
I will PM you the software tomorrow as I´m using a laptop in bed now and the rest of the house is REALLY cold.
For now if you can install all the soft and drivers on your PC and can figure out how to load up the nokia screen demo program then it will make things easy for you when you come to programming up using my code.
Instructions for the demo prog are here:
http://www.nuelectronics.com/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=10&zenid=208b4e44750d05a4ea4ff0c1b1844bff
The nokia screen shield has solder pins along the top with numbers, you can solder all your input and output wires directly to this. Or if you can get very thin wires you can poke them in the sockets on the micro board and then plug the screen on top of them, trapping the wires as you plug the screen in.
Best, Yucca.
@Broli,
Your idea of trying to swing just one pole through the coil... Maybe we could achieve that by using long rod magnets and just have the N or S rod end swinging through the coil. The opposite end could stay away from the coil and be close to the wheel centre?
Of course it would be good to try your way with shielding as well.
With the single pole passing through the coil we could apply two pulses per pass. One attraction pulse just past TDC and one repulsion pulse as the pole leaves the coils edge.
Yucca.
@ Yucca
thanks for sharing
i recieved your soft and your explanations :)
my freeduino does operate right and now i have to get used with it very new stuff to me but very interesting very good challenge
so far i see it is not possible to send picture on PM so i send you a picture of a problem which occures by opening the DEK UCC soft in arduino ? (nothing is connected to the board)
i will order some "logic level fet " next week i actually have some IRFP450 do you think i can try to make some test with this Fet in direct contact to the gate or it could be dangerous for the arduino ?
good night
Laurent
Hi Laurent,
Good to see you got the screen demo to compile and upload.
It looks like you have accidentally removed a comment mark in the UCC code. When a line is commented it has a green color in the editor. This means the line will not get compiled and uploaded to the Arduino. A comment line is just for human reading.
Make sure the line is commented properly by using two forward slashes at the begining like this:
// This line is now a comment...
If it is not commented properly then the compiler will treat it like program code and try and compile it with error.
You can try firing a FET using the 5V signal. Yes there is a chance that if youblow your FET with high BEMF then some could find it´s way back through the gate and damage the MCU. If your FET doesn´t have reverse bias protection diode inside then put a reverse bias diode over the drain and source, to protect the FET and thus the microcontroller unit (MCU). You can also put a neon across the drain and source of the FET to protect it further.
Yucca.
at all
going on to design the power UCC motor for my ultralight i have some questions to you about the windings
on my Lynch motors there is no normal winding that is to say there is no coil + core + magnet there is solid long straps of copper "winding" (around 1 centimeter width and 2 mm thick) as if it is a one turn of heavy strong winding. If you see at the patent of Cedric Lynch (simply ggoole it) it seems to be an array in my motors there is an array of 143 single turns winding all arround the rotor and all theses array are separeted by the mean of laminated cores and i can say to you that this motor works very well
now to my precise question
would it be possible to make a UCC with one single copper wire perhaps 5mm diameter to support 300 pulsed amperes to motorise the 9 magnets arrangement (as i proposed at the beginning of this thread)
in fact how is the best way to transfer the electrical power to the copper wire to get the most electromagneticforce i speak here up to 13 -15 KW (about 20 hp)
thanks
@Yucca
i have less time now but i will soon ask you a lot of questions about the arduino thank's
Laurent
The most power depends on your amperage. If say you can provide 100 amperes then try to get as much WINDINGS as possible with a wire that can handle that to make a strong field. On the other hand this not being a 100% DC motor you have to take self induction of the windings in account as it can become a negative thing.
Quote from: woopy on March 04, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
would it be possible to make a UCC with one single copper wire
Since the current is thought to flow principally along the edge of a conductor, it might pay
to silver plate this wire.
Paul.
@ Paul-R
yes very goog idea and if we go simpler why not a single copper tubing ? for instance
i can get easily outer diameter 5 mm and inside 3 mm copper tubing and a lot of other dimension
thanks for the info
any body about UCC with one winding-tubing for very high current ??
all the best
Laurent
@all
concerning the one turn tubing UCC i have seen that this could help but only at very high frequency so for the purpose i am thinking of it is not very usefull
but my question is always up to date
the ampere-turns calculation says
for a given electromagneticforce of let's say X-force
i can get it with
300 amperes and one single turn coil
or 300 turns coil on one ampere
or 10 turns coil with 30 amperes
or 30 turns coil with 10 amps
and so on
so what have i to calculate to absorb a power of 15 kw (about 20 ps) with a battery of 51.8 volt nominal and 40 aH
if somebody can help
thanks
Laurent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPaKE85Fy4U
Nice motor , here you see it go from pulse mode to Lenz by advancing or retarding the timing