Hi All,
I need help finding a suitable motor for the Hyde generator (US patent 4897592):
http://www.google.com/patents?id=HX4BAAAAEBAJ&dq=4897592
which I'm trying to build. One of Hyde's generators allegedly used an input of 2.4kW to get an output of 22.9kW. The problem is that it needs to rotate at at least 6000 RPM and the most I've been able to get to without too much shaking is around 2700 RPM. See the photo below. I've used this vacuum cleaner motor in the past to spin something to above 8000 RPM but that was something which was attached just above the shaft coming out of the motor whereas my Hyde generator has a 16" shaft with two discs on it.
So I'm thinking of going with something more like what he uses in his patent. See the drawing from his patent below, item 28. That's a motor with the shaft coming out of both sides. That would be better because I could attach directly to the motor shaft and the shaft would be shorter. (Also, who knows, there may be something important about the rotating
magnetic fields of the motor in between the two discs?) Bench grinder motors top out at around 3600 RPM so they're no good.
So I went shopping for motors today and found that the fastest of these type I could find go to around 3000 RPM - far less than the 6000-7000 RPM I need. Can anyone advise me on where/how to get such a motor, if such a beast exists. Obviously Hyde found one.
Thanks,
Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
You can us use a washing machine motor http://www.tdspares.co.uk/prodimages/mtr1003.jpg (http://www.tdspares.co.uk/prodimages/mtr1003.jpg) this thing can be obtained from repair shops and just about anywhere, hell you can even go to any recycle center and take them out of some broken wasting machines.
I got like 7 on one trip. Anyway these can do like 0 to 13000 rpm.
The best thing is these washing machine motors are so called "universal motors" http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/electric_motors2.html (http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/electric_motors2.html) and so have an Ac powered field winding and a Ac powered commutator.
This motor in combination with a (preferably two) variac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variac#Variable_autotransformers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variac#Variable_autotransformers) will allow you to have full rpm range control.
This is in my opinion you best option.
Regards,
Steven
@Steven,
Thanks for the suggestions but I really need a motor where the shaft comes out of both sides as in the patent drawing above. My vacuum cleaner motor can already give me more than the speed I need, but the shaft extends out only one side. Your mention of the variac does remind me that I'd prefer the motor be variable speed, or controllable with a variac, so that I can start it up slowly - but again, the shaft has to come out of both sides, otherwise I can just use my existing motor.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on February 09, 2009, 12:35:37 PM
So I'm thinking of going with something more like what he uses in his patent. See the drawing from his patent below, item 28. That's a motor with the shaft coming out of both sides.
How about one of those bench grinders with a wheel on each side?
Strip it for the motor.
The speed may be an issue. There may be smaller ones for
polishing jewelry or silversmithing that may run fast.
Paul.
Well you could use a bench grinder motor and a one phase variable frequency drive.
Since induction motors get their speed from line frequency and not amps, you can change the rpm of a induction motor by increasing the ac line frequency. You can get these variable frequency drive second hand from ebay:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive
@Paul,
At your suggestion I added jewelry to my search criteria and found a bench grinder that goes up to 4000 RPM. Still too slow but faster than any other so far.
@Steven (Nali2001),
I've started looking into this combination, variable frequency drive plus motor. That's a new one for me so if anyone has any tips re variable frequency drives, I'd like to hear them. Most of the ones on ebay are 3-phase but a few are single.
Thanks guys,
Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
A router motor (wood cutting power tool) is capable of 6000 rpm and more. They commonly run 10000 rpm.
I don't know your electronics skills, but what you could do is take one of these dc 12v to ac 120/230v invertershttp://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/12_volt_power_inverters.html (http://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/12_volt_power_inverters.html) and hack them, they are fixed to 50/60 hz, but hack in a pot and you should have a adjustable range. Just be careful, if you lower the frequency to fast down when the motor is spinning, you could get into the situation where you dial the frequency down faster than the motor can rev down. And if so the motor will drive power back into the inverter and possibly waste the inverter.
Regards,
Steven
@Liberty,
Thanks but finding a motor that rotates over 6000 RPM is not not the problem. Finding one that fast that also has the shaft coming out both sides is what seems hard to do.
@Steven,
Thanks. I'll keep the hack in mind in case I can't find a suitable variable frequency drive.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
@steve, what about this? 10k rpm
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLEXIBLE-SHAFT-ELECTRIC-GRINDER-AND-ROTARY-CARVER-TOOL_W0QQitemZ250354992006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250354992006&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
Mark
Quote from: Mark69 on February 10, 2009, 11:10:20 PM
@steve, what about this? 10k rpm
http://cgi.ebay.com/FLEXIBLE-SHAFT-ELECTRIC-GRINDER-AND-ROTARY-CARVER-TOOL_W0QQitemZ250354992006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250354992006&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A5
Mark
Its a heck of a grinder for $74. But does it actually do 10,000
with any appreciable power? (I would not want to be around if
a grinding wheel had a chip out of it, and someone cranked it
up to that speed).
How much power to you expect to need, Steven? Probably
difficult to estimate. Can the apparatus be in a reduced
pressure casing to reduce wind resistance? Heat?
Paul
@Mark,
Sweet! Thanks man. It'll be a shame to take it apart but sometimes you've gotta suck it up and cut.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 11, 2009, 05:26:55 AM
Its a heck of a grinder for $74. But does it actually do 10,000
with any appreciable power? (I would not want to be around if
a grinding wheel had a chip out of it, and someone cranked it
up to that speed).
How much power to you expect to need, Steven? Probably
difficult to estimate. Can the apparatus be in a reduced
pressure casing to reduce wind resistance? Heat?
Paul
@Paul,
I'll be spinning two 2mm thick by 27cm diameter plastic rotor disks with megnetizable steel segments krazy glued to them. See the photo of my current version on the first page of this thread for some idea. I'll be ramping up the speed slowly, which it looks like is possible with this motor, so there's no big starting torque. Given that, I don't think I'll need much power. However, if you look back at the patent diagram I attached in my first post you'll see that the rotor disks will be within an electric field (item 16 is negative or ground, item 18 is positive for example) and so there may be some coulomb forces to overcome, possibly even some high frequency jerking. The voltage across the whole thing will be around 2kV.
I'm not sure what you mean by reduced pressure casing. I do plan on having a casing as in the patent drawing. I don't anticipate much heating around the rotor disks, but haven't thought about it much. As for the motor itself, I expect if it can handle the torque, then the 6000RPM should be well within its design limits.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
By reduced pressure, I mean to ask if you are running it in a semi vacuum.
This rotor will need serious balancing - really serious balancing.
And not only static balancing, but dynamic balancing as well.
You may need a couple of extra discs on the shaft for this purpose. Do
you have a university with a good Mechanical Engineering
faculty reasonably near by?
Quote from: Paul-R on February 11, 2009, 11:47:37 AM
By reduced pressure, I mean to ask if you are running it in a semi vacuum.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. The answer's no, just regular air pressure.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 11, 2009, 11:47:37 AM
This rotor will need serious balancing - really serious balancing.
And not only static balancing, but dynamic balancing as well.
You may need a couple of extra discs on the shaft for this purpose. Do
you have a university with a good Mechanical Engineering
faculty reasonably near by?
I was planning on first getting the disks mounted on the shaft and then rotating them at low speed while arranging a marker near enough the disk edge to see any places where it is either out of round or being pushed by out of balance centrifugal force. I'd then trim wherever there were marks and repeat.
I did once use my existing vacuum cleaner motor once to spin a pot up to 8400 RPM in these experiments:
http://rimstar.org/sdprop/rot/rotchgcyl1/rotchgcyl1.htm
That pot was mounted right on the motor shaft. I figure since these rotors will also be on the motor shaft, 6000-7000 RPM should be okay. I do have two nearby universities with mechanical engineering departments but I'll see how I do first.
For safety, I have a 1/4" thick plexiglas barrier which I stand behind along with safety glasses on. You can see it in the photos on the above webpage.
Now that Mark has pointed out that these mini bench grinders exist, I've since found two more on amazon.com. I checked the local hobby shops and hardware stores this morning but no joy there. So I'll shop online a bit more and then buy one.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
@steve, no sweat, keep us informed of your progress ;D
Mark
Well, I ordered this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Mini-Grinder-Bench-w-Flex-Shaft_W0QQitemZ290288077575QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGrinders?hash=item290288077575&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
It's the same grinder as Mark found, just at a cheaper cost. It should get here in 7-11 days so I guess I'll work on my testatika in the meantime, trying out pretty much the same principle. I'll let you know when the grinder arrives and give gory details of the dissection. ;D
Thanks all!
Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
EDIT: Paul, I normally don't even glance at the ads in between messages but out of curiosity I just did. The one's on this page at the time were for "Dynamic Balancing Services"! Who knows, maybe I'll need them someday. ;D Stefan, I clicked! ;D
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on February 12, 2009, 02:04:35 PM
EDIT: Paul, I normally don't even glance at the ads in between messages but out of curiosity I just did. The one's on this page at the time were for "Dynamic Balancing Services"! Who knows, maybe I'll need them someday. ;D Stefan, I clicked! ;D
I still think you should try the Professor of Mech Eng at one of
your local universities. They might be able to turn your work
into a minor 2nd year project ("Effect of out-of-balance forces on
bearing performance" - or somesuch) and leave you with a
very well balanced shaft, motor and double disc system.
Paul.
p.s. very interested in the electrets on your site.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 12, 2009, 05:42:27 PM
I still think you should try the Professor of Mech Eng at one of
your local universities. They might be able to turn your work
into a minor 2nd year project ("Effect of out-of-balance forces on
bearing performance" - or somesuch) and leave you with a
very well balanced shaft, motor and double disc system.
I am tempted to. One of those universities is the University of Ottawa which has been very open minded in working with Thane Heins. But, I take a minimalist approach first, that way if I manage to do it in my living room and it taps into some energy source then I'll know that anyone else around here will be able to too. If I find I can't balance it then I'll go to the uni.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 12, 2009, 05:42:27 PM
p.s. very interested in the electrets on your site.
Sadly I didn't measure and limit input current, so they didn't work out. It would have been so easy to have put in an ammeter and a resistor. Maybe I'll set it all up again some day.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hey Guys!
My mini bench grinder (aka motor for Hyde generator) arrived and it works great! I made up a video so you can see it for yourself. I even filmed a speed test using my tachometer and sure enough, 10,000 RPM no load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8U6T9Q0tc
I will have to cut off the black metal rim covers that extend over the wheels and that the flexible shaft attaches to. Too bad, I was hoping to not have to damage it in case I want to reassemble it again later (in the unlikely event the Hyde generator doesn't work out :-[.) I'll still be able to reassemble it but without the plastic guard and flexible shaft attachment. Anyway, I'll keep you posted and thanks again for you help.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi, I'm tuning in late, as far as balancing goes on a budget, watch the vid i post just as a reference. You can build one of these and balance anything almost as good as a very expensive machine ( which I have done and still do), Modern day percision bearings cleaned out are 99.99% efficient, so if you buy good bearings, clean them out ( no seals or greese), treat with less than zero weight oil, AND the trick is to hang the jig ( use gravity), use percision cones, and for less than $25 dollars you can balance anything to the efficiency of your bearings ( remember 99.99) which most people cant and wont do, but they will tell you i got this dohickey that can do it, if you want it done right , hell, you gotta do it yourself),, and if you dont want to go thru all that, then call up your local speedbike shop and ask them to balance something for you (old school), they will charge you 5 bucks and do a better job than any $10,000 piece of equipment can do. Good Luck (dremels spin at 30k) stackm up!!
Oh crap, the vid link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2AuivYzaBs
@X00013,
Thanks for that. I had to google to find out what you and he meant by cones, but I got it now.
As for forgetting the link, let's see, I've done that 1, 2, 3, 4, ... nevermind, I don't think I'd have
enough numbers anyway.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
I think this refers to static balancing. At the speeds you anticipate, and bearing in mind
that the perspex discs are well apart on the shaft, I reckon you may need dynamic balancing.
Paul.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 24, 2009, 06:07:29 AM
I think this refers to static balancing. At the speeds you anticipate, and bearing in mind
that the perspex discs are well apart on the shaft, I reckon you may need dynamic balancing.
Paul.
Ah, I see your point. Especially when you point out it's a two disk system. I'll try just
static balancing first in case I get lucky at 6000 RPM, then I suspect as you do that
I'll have to work on dynamic. If it gets to that then I'll need to go with machine shop
fabricated quality disks rather than my crude ones. One step at a time. I want to
keep it in the realm of DIYers as much as possible so that if it works then anybody
can make it.
Here's a fair link on the two types of balancing:
http://www.shimadzu.com/sho/english/products/bla/know.html
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on February 24, 2009, 10:17:53 AM
Here's a fair link on the two types of balancing:
http://www.shimadzu.com/sho/english/products/bla/know.html
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
A very nice link. It explains it well. If both discs are balanced
off the shaft, and then assembled, you may do O.K. Sometimes
shafts can have slag inclusions within them which will cause
out of balance effects. You are planning to run at a heck of a pace,
but if you start from zero, and slowly work up the speed, you can't
go too far wrong. I suspect that you may want to take the shaft and assembled discs in to a balancing specialist at some point.
Be ready for the possibility that you may be asked to install two
extra (small) discs on the shaft to carry counter balancing weights.
Paul.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 24, 2009, 05:20:40 PM
A very nice link. It explains it well. If both discs are balanced
off the shaft, and then assembled, you may do O.K. Sometimes
shafts can have slag inclusions within them which will cause
out of balance effects. You are planning to run at a heck of a pace,
but if you start from zero, and slowly work up the speed, you can't
go too far wrong.
That was possible with my vacuum cleaner motor but this grinder motor quickly goes to around 3000 RPM
when first turned on. It may be the electronics or it may be the motor. I'll have a look. I'd certainly like to
start at 0. If you look closely at the youtube video I'd posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8U6T9Q0tc
starting at around 3:56 in you can see the quick ramp up. Maybe with the high voltage turned on before startup, i.e. the only load I can see, the ramp up will be slower.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 24, 2009, 05:20:40 PM
I suspect that you may want to take the shaft and assembled discs in to a balancing specialist at some point.
Be ready for the possibility that you may be asked to install two
extra (small) discs on the shaft to carry counter balancing weights.
That may be difficult given that most of the shaft is in the motor itself. For that I'd have to go back to the vacuum cleaner motor arrangement (first post in this thread) but with a straight non-conductive shaft and everything balanced, that would be possible. I do like using the grinder motor if only because it's what's done in the Hyde patent and the first rule of replication is "First replicate exactly."
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
[EDIT]
PS. I had enough time today to remove the wheel guards, separate the motor from the base and do some modifications which will allow me to reattach the gaurds despite some cutting I'll have to do to them (should I ever want to use it as a grinder again.) Tomorrow I'll cut the guards, looks like a hack saw will do it easily, and start working on a way to attach the motor to the test frame (same one as in the photo in the first post in this thread.) See attached photo for current state.
It might be an idea to mount the equipment right up against a wall
with no doors or windows in the walls at right angles. Possibly even
rawlplug the equipment to a shelf on the wall, with the plane of the
perspex discs parallel to the wall.
Like that, if the perspex discs fly apart, they will be unlikely to hurt
you or anyone else, or damage equipment. The danger plane, i.e.
the plane of the discs, will be empty.
For these high RPM tests I usually stand behind the 1/4" thick plexiglas barrier in this photo of a different experiment:
http://rimstar.org/sdprop/rot/rotchgcyl1/26_rotchgcyl1_1st6000RPM_test3_annotated.jpg
The (1) is at the top left corner and the (14) is at the bottom right. I'll likely enclose the whole thing in a similar plastic enclosure or two in case the sectors fly off, through, besides being glued, they'll also be strapped onto the centre shaft. Don't worry, I'm sufficiently cautious (chicken.)
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
@Steven
Please be aware your device will have 'critical speeds'. These points you must ramp through quickly - up or down.
Balancing at speeds of zero, running, and those in between will be different. I have plenty of experience with rotating machinery. You won't catch me in the danger plane with only 1/4 inch Plexiglas between me and this machinery.
May sound silly but I suggest you put it up on a solid table and control it from under that table.
Sorry to butt in but plastic disks spinning at 10k in a wooden frame looks like a problem to me.
I have to agree with BEP when it comes to safety, after his comment i went back and looked at your first pic of the disk size and the speeds, drop a grinder at 4k and it will scare the hell out of you doing major fubar to everything around it, check your tip speed and prepare for the worst accordingly, maybe get a stress test sheet from the plastics manufacturer, 10,500 rpm times 34.5 inches per revolution comes up 362250 inches that the tip travels per minute, but lets divide by 12 to change inches to feet with 30,187.5 feet tip travel per minute. 30,187.5 feet per minute divided by 5280 feet per mile becomes 5.72 miles tip travel per minute. Most people are more familiar with miles per hour so multiply 5.72 miles per minute by 60 minutes per hour to arrive at 343.2 miles per hour tip speed. double the rpm and you could have micro sonic booms in your workshop ( which i think would be really cool) yet very unsafe, and good luck
Guys,
I'll admit, I am more nervous than I was with my previous experiment of a few years ago that went up to 8400 RPM but with a much simpler rotating object, so I'll take your advice and also be on a different plane. Not that it makes much difference, the motor's capable of 10K+ but I'm aiming just for 6K to 7K.
Thanks for the concerned comments,
Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi All,
Here's an update on the Hyde generator. Things were delayed a bit due my being out of commision for a while with a "just kill me now" cold :). But as the photo below shows, I now have the grinder motor mounted on a rectangular aluminium tube adjustably attached to one of the legs of the wooden frame. There is a little twist in the leg if I put torque on the motor by hand. That probably won't be an issue due to my being able to ramp up the motor speed slowly (more below.) But I might attach to another leg at 90 degrees to the existing one since both disks will be rotating in the same direction, possibly putting some torque due to conservation of angular momentum. I have to think about that some more.
Notice that I've separated the base that came with the grinder from the actual grinder and extended long wires between them. I then plugged the base into my variac (also in the photo.) I find that if I set the variac at about 100VAC and then turn on the grinder at it's lowest speed, it doesn't turn. But I can then slowly turn the variac up from 100VAC to 110VAC and the grinder very slowly accelerates. I can then use the dial on the base to ramp up from there to 10,000 RPM. That's a big improvement from without the variac where the grinder immediately speeds up to 3000RPM. So I have very slow ramp up and ramp down and jerk is no longer an issue (though I'll keep it in mind anyway.) In my experience, that's huge. It'll also help in doing balancing where I'll want to start slow.
I'm not sure I like the use of the aluminium tube. I might go with a 2x4 (wood) instead. That's because if you look at the patent drawing in the first post for this topic, you'll see that this whole thing is sandwiched in a capacitor with about 2kV across it. The aluminium tube will be asymmetric in the electric field, though theoretically, I think it should have a net-zero effect. The 2x4 would be asymmetric as well, but being a dielectric instead of a conductor might make less of a difference. Any thoughts on that?
I also don't want to fill the area surrounding the grinder with too much since that's where a lot of electronics (capacitors and diodes) will be.
Anyway. Next step is the bosses for holding the disks to the shafts.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quick update... I finished drawings for the bosses, the parts that attach the disks to the shafts, today and brought them to a machine shop. They're going to have them done for me next week some time and they're charging only $40 CDN
($31 USD, 24 EUR), dirt cheap. Since they'll be done entirely on a metal lathe the face of the boss should be 90 degrees to the shaft - far better than anything I could have done myself. They'll be aluminium.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
It seems that the perspex discs will be rotating in a horizontal plane. This means
that if they centrifuge apart into pieces, those pieces will be travelling at speed
in that plane, which is likely to include your legs. And don't imagine that cricket
pads will do the business.
I would have the discs rotating in a vertical plane, and right up against a wall.
@Paul-R,
I was already planning on staying out of the plane at your previous suggestion, but now that I think of it, I'm also going to build a better top for the tops of the legs so I'll make the new top be a board the matches the board used for the base and then there's no reason at all I won't be able to sit it on it's side in the corner of a room. But I'll still take more precautions than that since if any parts do fly off, they can still ricohet around so I'm planning on also adding walls to the thing so it's completely boxed.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
just get a hockey mask and catchers mitt! crank that biotch to 10K!!!!!!!
Hi Steven,
QuoteI would have the discs rotating in a vertical plane, and right up against a wall.
from PaulR is a very good advice, not only for the wall but that grinder motor is not made to run vertical, the ball bearings will break down fast. Plus balancing will be easier.
Take care,
Michel
Quote from: Michelinho on March 15, 2009, 01:07:07 AM
from PaulR is a very good advice, not only for the wall but that grinder motor is not made to run vertical, the ball bearings will break down fast. Plus balancing will be easier.
Hi Michel,
Good points. In that case, sideways it definately will be.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi All,
No one can say I don't take people's advice! :) As this update shows, my Hyde generator now sits on its side for safety and so that the motor bearings are oriented the way they were meant to be. I got and installed the newly fabricated aluminium bosses/wheel hubs from a local machine shop and they are beautiful (see annotated photo below.) They did a great job - what a difference a metal lathe makes! I also made some new rotor disks taking extra care to make them nice and round with a consistent radius and no wobble (well a little with one disk but I haven't fiddled around yet.) The annotated photo below is intended to clarify what the parts are in relation to each other. I just got it to this stage, assembled for the first time and haven't attached any segments or electronics yet nor have I adjusted spacing and all that perfectly. I just wanted to see how fast I could get it turning without bad vibration and with everything bolted together tightly.
I did do one speed test with my photo tachometer and slowly spun it up to around 4200 RPM with no wicked vibrating observed. Very quiet running. It was very smooth throughout. That's a huge improvement over my previous approach with the vacuum cleaner motor and long shaft. Unfortunately that 4200 RPM was at the top of the dial so I'm not getting my 10,000 RPM yet. I know the 10,000 RPM was a no-load value but I was hoping that with load I'd still be able to get 6000-7000 RPM. Still, it was my first run and I might still be able to fiddle and get more speed, one thing being to feed it 120VAC instead of 110VAC. That's simply a matter of doing another run with the variac turned up more this time but now my photo tachometer is refusing to show me more than 0 RPM so I have to figure out what's up with that first. It's not batteries since I also tried powering the tach with a bench power supply. Possibly it's the proximity of the tach to the rotor. I'll have to shift things a bit. I'll monitor current when I do the test since I don't want to burn out the motor.
I did have to shorten the shaft on the end that was for connecting to the flexible shaft so if this doesn't work out, I won't be able to retore this back to the original mini-bench grinder that it was. C'est la vie.
Anyway, enjoy.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Nicely done Steven, don't forget that the motor is rated for about 3,600 rpm. At 4,200 rpm you are at 116% and 7,000 rpm is almost 200% of rated rpm. Do all preliminary testing at 4,200 rpm and go to 7,000 rpm for the final tests. That way if the motor dies, you will have data to rely on.
Bonne chance,
Michel
Hi Michel,
Actually, this particular motor is rated for 10,000 RPM - that's originally why I started this thread was to ask if anyone had heard of one rated for at least 6000-7000 RPM and Mark found this one for me. Here's a video I made a few weeks ago about this motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8U6T9Q0tc
Anyway... since my last post, I got the photo tachometer working again (probably was a combination of close proximity of the tach to the plastic and the lighting at the time) and I got it running up over 7000 RPM with no significant vibrating, yahoo! I increased the input voltage from the variac to around 111-115VAC. I'll post a video this evening. Makes sense since even though no-load rating is 10,000 RPM, in the above video I do a speed test with grinder and polisher wheels attached and it goes over 10,000 RPM.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
PS. Give Sophie a nice scratch behind the ears for me.
Hi All,
The video (with audio) of my Hyde generator running at over 7000 RPM is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp1KbuZC6lg
I'll analyse the buzzing sound a little more but the fact that whole wooden frame isn't vibrating its way across the floor or making the floor shake is very significant. My previous setup would do that at less than 3000 RPM.
The next step is to attach the segments to the disks and see if it still runs smoothly. They'll be ferromagnetic steel segments glued with krazy glue to the surface of the rotor and also strapped the side of the bosses/wheel hubs for electrical contact. The idea is that all rotor segments on both rotors are electrically connected together, the electrical connection from rotor to rotor being done through the motor shaft. This isn't as per Hyde's US patent 4,897,592 but it is as per Hyde's later improvement as reported by him to Moray B. King.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Its looking good Steve, keep the updates coming! 8)
Mark
Hi Steven,
I am impressed, very nice and smooth ride on the last video.
The project looks goooooood!
Take care,
Michel
Thanks guys! I'm a little surprised at how well it turned out myself. I compared the sound it makes to the sound in my speed test when it was just a grinder (last segment of my mini-bench grinder video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR8U6T9Q0tc
and the sound is the same.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on March 23, 2009, 08:14:21 PM
The next step is to attach the segments to the disks and see if it still runs smoothly.
This is the point where you will need to pay immense attention to balancing since this operation
may well put the two rotors out of balance. If the two rotors are re-balanced separately, then
the problems of static v. dynamic balancing may be academic.
Paul.
Quote from: Paul-R on March 24, 2009, 10:47:33 AM
This is the point where you will need to pay immense attention to balancing since this operation
may well put the two rotors out of balance. If the two rotors are re-balanced separately, then
the problems of static v. dynamic balancing may be academic.
Yup. I'll be taking more care than usual in making these rotors to minimize the work I'll have to do in balancing. Even if nothing else comes up, this could still take a week or two, possibly with more than one version of the rotors.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi All,
Just another update. I finished all the parts last Friday. It took me til noon today to do all the tweeking needed to assemble it. I ran it this afternoon and made this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_SI4266L5o
Sorry for the poor quality. It was much better in the camera and running off my hard disk.
I also started a dedicated webpage for the Hyde generator on my website and will gradually be adding more to it:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator
I put some photos on the page to make up for the poor quality of the video.
I'm seeing some of the desired spikes on my scope but they could be any number of other things too. It'll take a week or so to get clean results (plus I want to box the unit in for added safety, I need a new scope probe, have to make sure I eliminate or account for all the other potential signals, I think I can modify my phototachometer some more so it can fit in between the stator disks, ...)
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi Steven,
I am impressed, very nice piece of work. For the photo tachometer, can't you use an angled mirror so it could be easily setup?
Take care and good luck,
Michel
Quote from: Michelinho on April 08, 2009, 03:34:37 AM
I am impressed, very nice piece of work. For the photo tachometer, can't you use an angled mirror so it could be easily setup?
Thanks Michel. I guess the more you do of this stuff, the better you get at it.
As for the tach, the only place I can put it is in between the stators and it won't fit. So I was planning on cutting it in two (I can do that) so that it would fit. But if you mean to put a mirror in between angled at 45 degrees and then have the tach be external and pointing at the mirror, brilliant! That would also mean the tach electronics would not be in a pulsing high voltage electric field. The only question is will the tach's optics still work in that situation. I'll try it, thanks! The other bonus is that the tach's display would be easily viewable from the side (though if I end up having to put the tach internal, that can still be handled with via a mirror.) There's no way I want to enter the danger zone when this is running at high speed.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
A very nice build.
When do you expect to get to the point of measuring power in and power out?
Paul.
Paul,
Probably in the next week or two, provided I don't have to build new parts. That's probably optimistic. I've been experimenting enough years to know that to have a rigorous experiment there's a lot of fiddling to do before you've eliminated all the undesirables. The scope output in the video I posted was blury but should be clear enough to see that there's a lot of noise there. I know already that with the motor power off and the high voltage on a lot of the approx. 100kV spikes are present. But HV spikes can also come from practically invisible (even in the dark) sparking at sharp edges and when those are buried in connections they're hard to find, ... I'm not interested in results that are just fooling myself. I post updates because I consider this a forum for collaboration, not just a newsfeed. Plus, if it works, I'd like at least some people to know the things I learned along the way so they can replicate too.
On that note, you may notice from the video that I replaced the aluminium support for the motor with a hardwood one instead on the guess that this will have less electrical interference with whatever's supposed to happen. I also had to have the support oriented vertically, unlike at an angle as in the previous video and in the photo in Reply #38 here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6790.msg165557#msg165557
With it oriented at an angle the weight of the motor was causing the narrow wooden leg that the support is bolted to to twist, throwing the rotor out of alignment with the stator and HV plates. That's why the whole frame is sitting diagonally on the floor, instead of flat as in the previous video. This way the support is vertical with the motor directly above it (gravity sucks :-).)
Michel,
The mirror and tach idea seems to work. See the attached photo. The tach stops working if I move it too far from the mirror but I can have it such that it's at least outside of the whole frame (about 30cm away) and with the display readable by someone sitting to the side. I had to put some of the tach's special tape on the plastic portion of the rotor but the tape is non-conductive so I'll chance it not having a negative effect on the experiment. I also had to put black tape on the HV negative plate, but if you'll look at the patent drawing in the first post for this topic you'll see that this plate has plastic (46) between the rotor (70, 72) and the actual metal plate (40). I taped to the plastic so I don't think it'll make much difference electrically. Hopefully there'll come a point where the output itself will indicate the speed and I won't need the tach. I just want it now so I can try to find HV output spikes that match the rotor segments passing the stator segments and so I don't run the motor faster than I need to to minimize danger.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi Steven,
That is great news, glad I could be of help. This method, I used many times when working on diesel motors as you never know when the thermostatic fan will engage and chop off an ear or worst.
One thing I have to mention is check and note the humidity level at the time of experiment because lot of your HV spikes could be static from the high speed plexi rotor.
Take care,
Michel
Quote from: Paul-R on April 08, 2009, 09:59:02 AM
When do you expect to get to the point of measuring power in and power out?
Paul,
Just a clarification. If you mean testing for more out than the power going into the motor and HV power supply, that won't be for a few months. Currently I have just one set of stator segments. I started with just one because each set requires a circuit with HV diodes and capacitors. I have plenty of capacitors but the diodes I have to order. Until I've got clean results from the first set, I won't know exactly how many capacitors and diodes I'll need. So I order just enough to establish that first (actually I thought I ordered enough for two sets of stator segments but miscalculated.) All together there should be 18 sets of stator segments. With the circuit I'm using now that's 18 x 8 diodes per set_of_stator_segments = 144 diodes.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
[EDIT I found the problem. See last paragraph in this post for an update and my next post for what the problem was.] It looks like I ran into a snag. I can only get it up to around 3700 RPM with the disks. I used to be able to spin it up to over 7000 RPM with the disks. 3700 is suspiciously around the same limit as a most other grinder motors. This makes me wonder if I blew something on the circuit board or some magical set of windings on the motor that allow it to go up to its rated 10,000 RPM no load. I even removed one of the high voltage plates that normally blocks access to the rotor from the side and measured with the tach directly to confirm. See right photo below.
Does anyone know anything about how they might be transforming what I suspect is normally a 3600 RPM motor into a 10,000 RPM motor? And help appreciated. In the meantime, I'll remove the disks and run with just the bosses/wheel hubs to see if it's the disks but I don't think so.
The photo on the left shows that I've built a safety box around it and mounted the phototach and done a handful of other improvements.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Sorry, I don't know much about that. Could it be something with the pot that controls the output speed?
@Mark69,
Thanks but nevermind. I just removed all the plates and disks and attached the original grinding wheels and was able to get it up to 10,000 RPM no problem. This was with the phototachmeter mounted in the same position as I used with the disks earlier this morning. So the problem is that the load of the completed disks brings the speed down to 3700 RPM. In my first youtube video where I got over 7000 RPM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp1KbuZC6lg
the disks didn't have any slots cut radially in them nor did they have any metal segments glued to them. My guess is all this acts like a fan, blowing air, the air acting like a load. The box isn't airtight and when it's running I feel airflow when sitting behind a second safety barrier which I erected.
So it's a relief that nothing is damaged but a bummer that I have a major load issue. One of the disks is wobbly so maybe eliminating that wobble will help. I also wonder if enclosing the disks as in the patent would help. Oh, well, back to the grind(er) ;D.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi All,
Well, I hit a wall with this motor. With disks that have slots cut radially in them and metal segments attached, the fastest I can do is around 4000 RPM and I need > 6000 RPM. I guess the slots make it act like a fan and pushing the air loads it down too much. So it's back to hunting for another motor. My current thought is to look for a dual-shaft model RC racing car motor and go with slightly smaller diameter disks. There's a store in town that will probably have them. Also, I'll get the disks fully machined to match the way the patent describes them. In the patent they aren't the usual segments glued to plastic disks. They're standalone metal segmented disks, one disk of which has some plastic glued to it.
In terms of output testing, by the time I eliminated all stray sources for the spikes I'd seen on my scope, there were no spikes left at all. And since that's what I was after, I didn't get it. But that's to be expected Hyde didn't get them either until he went over that elusive 6000 RPM. I did get 100V peek-to-peek AC with around 600 microamps AC, but that's normal stuff expected of this type of electrostatic generator.
Anyway, I put more photo details of the construction on: http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator
-Steven "never surrender" D.
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on April 24, 2009, 12:32:38 PM
Hi All,
Well, I hit a wall with this motor. With disks that have slots cut radially in them and metal segments attached, the fastest I can do is around 4000 RPM and I need > 6000 RPM. I guess the slots make it act like a fan and pushing the air loads it down too much.
How difficult would it be to build an air tight box around the entire apparatus (or find
a suitable such box), and then connect a tube to a domestic vacuum cleaner in
order to reduce the air pressure and wind losses? (There might eventually be
overheating problems).
Paul.
Steve
Before you give up on your current design try something simple. Start your unit like you normally would and get it to it's maximum speed. Use an air compressor and blow gun( If you have one) to force air tangentially at one of your rotors to help it accelerate. It should give you a little tesla turbine action and get you near your required speed.
Vince.
Paul and Vince,
Wow. Seriously out-of-the-box thinking there. Thanks.
Paul. It wouldn't be difficult at all to seal it for a single test. However, the box walls have to be removed each time I need to make adjustments to the spacing between the stator, rotor and HV plates, which is often as part of the experimental procedure. I can imagine sealing and unsealing would add a lot to that time unless I make a whole new box. Also, I need air flow over the motor; it heats up fast. So I'd need to add some other sort of cooling, possibly water. It's sounding just as simple to go with a new motor.
Vince. No problem trying that. I'd worry about air ionization being important though. I wouldn't want to blow it all away.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
PS. Sorry for the delayed response. I was away Saturday.
Quote from: Paul-R on April 25, 2009, 07:58:51 AM
How difficult would it be to build an air tight box around the entire apparatus (or find
a suitable such box), and then connect a tube to a domestic vacuum cleaner in
order to reduce the air pressure and wind losses? (There might eventually be
overheating problems).
Paul,
Crazy as your idea sounds, I actually tried it. See the attached photo montage. I managed to drop the air pressure by about 1 inch Hg as you can see from the pressure gauge. At that point the outer acrylic window (there are two 1/8" layers of acrylic on the inside of the box and 1/8" layer on the outside) was seriously bowed inward so I didn't bother sealing better. There was no noticable improvement in speed - the best I could get was around 3900 RPM which I've gotten without the reduced air pressure. It was worth a try though.
I'm not sure what approach I'll take next. I might get some better but smaller diameter rotors fabricated or I might try changing the stator from a solid metal plate to a mesh as with the testatika or I might return to my vacuum cleaner motor (see first post to this thread) but with a shorter shaft. What I'd really like to do is find a dual shaft motor that can give me 6000 RPM with the load I have but so far I'm not finding anything better than what I have.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
I guessed that maybe if I sealed the area where each rotor is, once the air gets moving, since it's enclosed in a circular pathway, it will keep most of its momentum and act like less of a load and I'd be picking up less new dead air. I also guessed that it would have the opposite effect, but I had to try, especially since in the patent the rotors are sealed in a circular housing in the same manner.
I got 4500 RPM, an encouraging improvement over my previous best of around 4000 RPM.
I used clear packing tape so I wonder if I used something less crinkly if it would be even better. Still no HV spikes, but Hyde didn't get those until around 6000 RPM.
For anyone who wants to see the whole story in one place, I've started updating the webpage:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Hi Steven,
I found one of your videos on YouTube and eventually got here :)
Knowing you a little, I would have to say that this Hyde generator must be quiet convincing ;D
Your research work is impeccable ;) and your video work is also top notch. It all looks very impressive to date.
From what I can quickly see, you are having an RPM limitation to be able to validate the Hyde generator. Is this still the current status?
Thanks for sharing.
Luc
Hey Luc,
Good to hear from you again. I look in on your channel too every now and then. Always glad to see you're still at it.
You're right, I'm still stuck on the RPM issue.
But I also since contacted Hyde, the inventer, by leaving him a phone message with my website and email address in hopes of getting more details before proceeding with a new version. He wouldn't pick up when I called. Unfortunately all he told me via email was a rather brief statement that "HV leaks off a lot of materials" and then in response to my further prompting "thanks for your interest but this Advanced Energy Technology is still in court and I cant make much comment about it."
So from that I take it that my next version should have less sharp edges, more like the patent's thick metal segments.
I've also since tried adapting the Hyde geometry to the testatika and done some tests there do to the seeming correlations, but no success so far.
-Steve
Did you try higher voltage to the motor to get more RPM's by using your variac? since many variac's can output higher than the 120v grid voltage.
If that's not enough you can use 2 variac's on separate phases to go higher.
You are so close! it would be sad to rebuild just to verify if it's indeed true that the magic starts at 6,000 RPM
If you need a second variac to do the test I''ll be glad to come over and help if you wish.
Luc
Actually my last runs have been with the motor controller plugged directly into the grid, no variac, and I turn the motor controller up full. So I'm using the maximum I can get from the grid, without adding phases.
Also, the motor documentation says it's rated for 110V so I wouldn't want to go too much higher out of fear of damaging the motor.
Plus, the number of extra RPMs I get per added volts in is small. To get the last 1500 RPM I'd have to increase the voltage substantially. Keep in mind that the faster I turn it the bigger the load from the air, and doesn't that go up as the square of the velocity?
I may just have to go back to using the vacuum cleaner motor (see first post in this topic) but with a new straighter and shorter shaft than I tried before; 10" instead of 16".
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Another way to go in the reduced pressure direction would be to put the
gear in a heavy steel box, and look out for an old secondhand laboratory
vacuum pump, possibly from Ebay.
Is the motor an induction motor? if so, then it's brushless and it's only experiencing slip because the field coils are too weak to keep the rotor in sync with the load and more volts will strengthen the field coils to correct this. An induction motor can take more volts without any damage as long as the temperature of the field coils do not exceed 120 Celsius. So if the motor is not experiencing a heat issue at this time I would say it's worth a try. If you only knew how much Thane Heins induction motor heated under load and showed no sign of damage ;D
Anyways, you only need it to reach the 6,000 RPM mark for maybe 60 seconds to confirm if the magic starts so there's no way this short of a voltage burst will have any time to heat the coils.
I do also have a couple of remote digital thermostats with 3 foot probe if you want to monitor the temperature.
Let me know if you need anything.
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on May 17, 2009, 12:09:50 PM
Is the motor an induction motor? if so, then it's brushless and it's only experiencing slip because the field coils are too weak to keep the rotor in sync with the load and more volts will strengthen the field coils to correct this. An induction motor can take more volts without any damage as long as the temperature of the field coils do not exceed 120 Celsius. So if the motor is not experiencing a heat issue at this time I would say it's worth a try. If you only knew how much Thane Heins induction motor heated under load and showed no sign of damage ;D
I just checked the exploded view diagram from the manual and there are two brushes. Anyone know if it's okay to run these at well over their rated voltage and current (110VAC, 1.5A under load)? I guess I can put an ammeter in series and see what my current draw is.
Quote from: gotoluc on May 17, 2009, 12:09:50 PM
Anyways, you only need it to reach the 6,000 RPM mark for maybe 60 seconds to confirm if the magic starts so there's no way this short of a voltage burst will have any time to heat the coils.
I do also have a couple of remote digital thermostats with 3 foot probe if you want to monitor the temperature.
Good point. I have the same with 10 foot probes. The motor housing does get hot during a minute or so run.
Quote from: gotoluc on May 17, 2009, 12:09:50 PM
Let me know if you need anything.
Luc
Actually Luc, if you want to drop by some time even if just to exchange ideas you're more than welcome. I know I've plenty to share that'd be impractical through email. Just send me private email or call (613-748-7810).
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Quote from: Steven Dufresne on May 17, 2009, 12:52:41 PM
I just checked the exploded view diagram from the manual and there are two brushes. Anyone know if it's okay to run these at well over their rated voltage and current (110VAC, 1.5A under load)? I guess I can put an ammeter in series and see what my current draw is.
Unfortunately in this case I would not recommend to do this to a brushed motor as the extra current could start melting the commutator surface and basically ruin the motor.
I'll give you a call.
Luc
Thanks to Luc, I got back on the horse and pulled away from testatika/hyde hybrid back to the pure hyde generator. 5200 RPM! Only 800 RPM to go. Full details and photos can be found at (scroll down to under the heading starting "May 19"):
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator/index.htm
but here's a brief writeup and of course I couldn't resist a photo of the segment that went bang (see below.)
Luc pointed out to me how to get 2 phases out of my wall sockets to get up to 220VAC and even more using variacs (which I didn't realize variacs would do), but for starters I tried it with just one variac at its maximum output of 130VAC. I got 4660 RPM! My previous best at 4500 RPM at 110VAC so it looks like I'd get around 80 RPM for each 10VAC I add; not much.
Then I decided that since I had big success on May 5 with sealing just the area where the rotors were and since at 4660 RPM it was screaming like a banshee from the air coming out of the holes in the wooden box, I should seal the area where the motor was too, just as is done in the patent. Success, I got 5200 RPM! Only 800 RPM to go.
And then there was a muffled bang and the whole thing began to slowly slide across the floor. One of the segments flew off (the bang) and that unbalanced the rotor (the slow slide.) But thanks to you guys, it was totally safe and nothing came out of the box. Damage was limited to a small cut in the packing tape that was sealing the rotor/stator area and mangling of the segment.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Thought I'd give an update on how this week's experimenting went. I think I hit a limit on how well my glue (Advanced Formula Instant Krazy Glue - gel type since that gives me about 15-30 seconds of play time) can hold the steel segments to the acrylic disks because another one flew off this week and had to be repaired. On the bright side, I did hit 5500 RPM with the improved housing I made.
I've ordered some higher current diodes for my circuit. I don't know what my current ones are rated at but I'm sure it's micro, if not milliamps. I have 200 1000V, 6A silicon diodes on order (6A100.) If this thing's going to start putting out real current at some time, I want to be ready for it.
Once I've got the new diodes in place I'll also experiment with mesh for the sectors, taking a page from testatika.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
HEI steve how's your work for the generator HYDE?
thanks
leo48
Quote from: leo48 on February 28, 2010, 05:42:59 PM
HEI A how's your work for the generator HYDE?
Hi @leo48,
Sorry for the lack of updates. The new diodes I mentioned in my previous post didn't help. Also, the test using mesh for stators mentioned above didn't help either.
The last thing I did was to modify one of my power supplies to put out both HV+ and HV-, both with respect to ground:
http://rimstar.org/equip/pos_neg_voltage_multiplier.htm
It's a Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier and puts out HV DC with some ripple. The problem I've found over the years is that if there's ionization going on somewhere then that ripple becomes hugely amplified. And unfortunately that's what happened when I tried it with my Hyde generator. All the connecting wiring was fine so I guess there's ionization going on in the Hyde generator. I'll need to build new stators and end plates to get rid of the leakage before it's worth testing again. I'm working on some other approaches right now though but I'll get back to the Hyde generator eventually. I'll post back here when I do.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
PS. In case anyone's curious, here's the experiment I did with testatika where I first ran into this ripple amplification:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/potsmk1.htm
and here's what I'm doing now:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/vacuum_energy/index.htm
@Steve
QuoteThe new diodes I mentioned in my previous post didn't help
If you I used the AC power
regards
leo48
Quote from: leo48 on March 01, 2010, 05:38:42 AM
@SteveIf you I used the AC power
I measured the AC current and voltage. I don't remember what the exact values were but the current x voltage, the power, was very small.
A working Hyde generator is supposed to produce unusually high voltage spikes. I wasn't getting any of that. I think that when I get rid of the ionization leakage then instead of AC I will be seeing pulsed DC. That's what you should see in a variable capacitor as the capacitance varies. It's very hard to do with a high voltage variable capacitor. Then at around 6000 RPM, the pulses are supposed to turn into much, much higher spikes.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Please tell us where you bought your circular Plastic Discs.
Thank you.
.
Quote from: FatBird on March 01, 2010, 09:44:48 AM
Please tell us where you bought your circular Plastic Discs.
They're homemade. I go to Home Depot and spent some time looking at all their pieces of Lexan Polycarbonate XL10 sheets (.093" thick, 11"x14") looking for the flattest one I can find. To do that I first stop by the tool section and borrowed one of their large squares so I can use that as a reference. The material and dimensions are arbitrary although I do want to use at something that is already close to the size of the final disk so I can be reasonably sure in the store that it would be flat when finished.
Then I go home and drill the necessary holes in what would be the middle of the disk and mount the whole rectangular piece on the Hyde generator motor shaft.
Next I measure out from the center of the shaft to the radius I want the disk to be and made a mark with one of those markers used for writing on CDs and DVDs (i.e. one good for writing on plastic.)
[EDIT: Then I put masking tape over where I think the circle that the marker is going to make will be, roughly. This isn't for the marker's sake. It just seems to help with the later step of cutting with the scroll saw. Depending on the plastic material and if the speed of the scroll saw is set too high, during cutting the plastic may melt back together behind the blade just after a cut has been made. The tape seems to help prevent this.]
I then fix the marker in place such that the tip is pressing firmly on my radius mark. Sometimes I use a portable vice to hold the marker, sometimes I do other tricks. But with the marker in place I then slowly rotate the disk. As I do so, the marker marks out the circumference of the disk.
I then remove the still rectangular piece of plastic from the motor shaft. By marking it this way I'm reasonably sure the disk has the same radius all the way around relative to the shaft. I screw it onto the shaft with three screws:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator/hyde02/hyde02_hubs.JPG
and since my work is far from perfect, I number the screw holes on both the aluminium boss (see picture) and the disk, that way I'll always match up the same holes each time I mount it.
To cut the disk I use a 16" table scroll saw, this one:
http://www.ryobitools.com/catalog/power_tools/scroll_saws/SC164VS
on my kitchen table (I'm not married so I can do that :).) I cut it close to the mark but not touching, about 1/8" away from it. So that gives me a very rough disk.
Next I bring out my tabletop disc sander, this one:
http://www.ryobitools.com/catalog/power_tools/sanders/BD4600
(again, not married :)) and with the Lexan disk sitting on the table on the side (see link), I use the disc sander on the side of the machine to sand off the remaining plastic up to the radius mark.
Note that these power tools are reasonably cheap, lightweight to move around and store when not in use. Highly recommended and very enabling. And I live in an apartment but I don't use them often, use them during times of day when it won't bother people and open windows and run the stove fan for ventilation. If I can do it, anyone can.
Done! Enjoy.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
Thank you for the SUPER, SUPER Clear & Easy to follow instructions.
I sure wish everyone on this forem made their instructions as good as you do.
Thanks again Steve.
.
Quote from: FatBird on March 01, 2010, 02:15:36 PM
Thank you for the SUPER, SUPER Clear & Easy to follow instructions.
I sure wish everyone on this forem made their instructions as A as you do.
Thanks again Steve.
You're welcome. Just trying to encourage more people to experiment. I wish I had taken photos of the steps though - next time.
By the way, I just made an edit in my instructions in the post above - about using masking tape.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
FYI I just ran across this video of someone rounding out a disk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8dmFCmzQ0
Doing it this way ensures that it'll be perfectly round once it's
on the final shaft.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org http://wsminfo.org
hmm interesting generator, would like to ask if there will be any development on the thread after so long of a lull?
What's in this thread is about as far as I got. I moved on to other projects and haven't gotten back to it.