I have an idea,and I need to "reverse" a magnets pole,if a north pole approaches a piece of iron,the iron becomes a south pole,I think,if so,a shorted coil is induced by the south pole,it will produce a south pole,as long as it can't "see" the north pole it will help the north pole approach,so getting Mr Lenz to help and not hinder.
I would be happy for you experienced people to tell why it is not doable.
peter
Hi petersone,
If you drop a magnet in a copper tubing, the magnet slowly decends. If you drop a magnet in a tube made of copper mesh the magnet does not slow down. I tried placing copper mesh on each side of a coil on my alternator (axial air core model) and compared the results under a load on that coil and an unmasked coil, no difference. The copper mesh does not work.
Back to square one...
Take care,
Michel
Michel,thanks for your response,but I think you misunderstand my idea,or I misunderstand yours,or maybe both,I don't understand the copper,when I'm using iron.
When a n pole approaches a piece of iron,the iron becomes a s pole,if a shorted coil only "sees" the s pole it will produce an s pole,is that not correct?
peter
Hi Peter,
I understand your idea. The problem is that the piece of iron becomes both a north and a south pole. I can't think of any way to make the iron produce a south pole that the coil would "reverse" lenz from, or atleast see only the south and not the north.
Charlie
You are not far off the unbeaten path, Peter. Consider employing an amorphous core such as metglass:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Metglass-nanocrystalline-tape-for-MEG-generator-5kg_W0QQitemZ310127838496QQcmdZ
Or cannabalize a hard drive for some high permeability MuMetal.
http://cgi.ebay.com/MU-METAL-MAGNETIC-STATIC-GUITAR-MIC-PHONO-LP-MRI-SHIELD_W0QQitemZ400023896181QQcmdZ
Add 2 parts Wesley Gary, 2 parts Howard Johnson, 1 part Steve Kundel, and 3 parts Qin Gang.....
And you just might be off to the race(s)
Peter,
I have an interesting thought experiment. Take your magnet and coil (air core) and place a piece of iron between them (not too thick). The coil is in close proximity to the iron. When the magnet moves into the field of the iron, it induces a flux that the coil sees. The coil will try to oppose this flux. Now assuming that the induction from the iron is loosely coupled, (meaning the pole generated in the iron by the magnet is not that strong). The coil will be able to push the flux away.
I believe that under the proper parameters (spacing, iron thickness, etc.) the coil will basically neutralize the flux within the iron as the magnet approaches. This means the magnet will not feel a lenz force as it approaches the iron/coil setup. The attraction the magnet would normally see as it is brought near the iron will go away. However, if the magnet leaves the iron, the coil will see a decreasing north field from the iron. The coil will generate a south field, the south field will induce through the iron and cause the magnet to want to come back. Therefore, as the magnet leaves the piece of iron, it will have to fight the pull of the iron on top of the south field induction from the coil. So in other words, the force it takes to move the magnet past the iron will be double.
The magnet won't be attracted to the iron as it approaches, but it will be doubly attracted as it leaves. A diode placed on the coil to stop current from flowing as the magnet leaves will help. But there is still the problem of getting the magnet past of the iron. It appears there's no way to balance this system.
Thanks for all your comments guys.
Here is another one for your knowledgeable people to ponder,I think I can explain with out a picture.
A coil with a magnet as a core,a piece of iron approaches,with the coil shorted,being pulled by the pm.and the induced coil,when level,disconnect the coil,just the pm.to hold it back,so,2 mags.pulling in,1 mag.holding back,plus some juice!!
I haven't tried it,but I will.
peter
I'll have to think about which way the flux will induce in that situation. A real experiment is always best.
I will say that these types of thought experiments are the right way to go. I have a patent application I'm defending this Tuesday that involves something close to these lines (well, the development came from the same type of thought train - the actual setup is different though.) Until it gets accepted, I can't really talk about it. I'm still not sure its Lenzless but if I ever get more time to work on it I'll find out - either way its an interesting setup worth patenting.
In the mean while, let me know how your experiment goes. Make sure you determine how the flux sets up in the coil - that will be important.
Charlie
Build you own over-unity generator.
Peter,
I thought some more on the idea you had with the PM as the coil's core. I'm pretty sure as the iron approaches the PM core, the coil sets up a flux to oppose the polarity of the PM. So the iron is not as attracted to the PM as it approaches (assuming the coil is shorted of course). As the iron is moved away, the coil will induce a flux that matches the PM (increasing the intensity). So like you said, if you put a diode on the coil, so it can't produce flux as the iron moves away, all you have to do is pull the iron away from the magnet. But remember your losing the attraction force that you would normally get as the iron approaches. Please test it though. The other option is that the iron is doubly attracted as it approaches and then reduced as it moves away (which would be too good to be true!)
Lumen,
When your magnet approaches the coil as you have it drawn, the coil will oppose the flux by generating a field against the magnet. The Lenz effect will definitely take hold. It may be easier to remove the magnet from the iron when the coil is energized (through induction), but the coil will definitely make it harder to move the magnet across the iron bar.
Man I wish I could post my idea but I guess I'll just have to be patient. You guys are hitting all around it though. Hmmmm, maybe I can talk a little bit about the operation without getting in trouble ? ;D Again, I'm not sure that what I have is over unity (probably not), but it doubles the frequency of the waveform - which is worth merit in my book. And it appears that my coil is reacting to a secondary effect that the prime mover sets up (instead of reacting directly to the prime mover). I believe this because it doesn't matter which pole is approaching, they both yield the same half period wave form. Likewise, when the pole moves away, either pole, it produces the inverse half period wave form. This is different from the classic coil/magnet setup where a south pole approaching/leaving generates a different half period wave form than a north pole approaching - in my setup they produce the same.
Another reason I'm pretty sure its a secondary effect is that in the geometry of the setup, there is no way my prime mover could induce a voltage in the coil. I've verified this by removing key components and the effect did not appear. Then I gradually added those components back and the effect returned. I think my original test produced ~1.5V peak to peak at about 1-2Hz. It generated current too when I shorted the coil, but the setup was too tiny to verify if Lenz was at work.
The disadvantage is that the waveforms generated are not as strong as when the coil reacts directly to the prime mover (as in the conventional case). I think this can be improved but I doubt it will ever be as strong as a direct reaction. So in that sense, when all is said and done, an optimized system may be just shy of Over Unity. But still, after 200 years, this goes to show that there is still stuff overlooked in basic electromagnetics!
Charlie,
You assume too much! Think of it like this, suppose there is no coil and the magnet attracts to the steel this is energy gained.
Now suppose there is a coil but it is not connected. This is still energy gained during the approach.
Now as the magnet leaves the iron, there is an attraction that is equal to the attraction minus some loss for the domain flipping in the iron.
However as the magnet passes the center of the iron, the iron will change polarity. If you look at the wave form of the coils output you will see when this happens. Now with a diode connected on the coils output, the only time a load is on the coil is during the flipping on the iron core polarity.
Because this happens on the back side of the coil any load only serves to keep the core from changing polarity. That means that the load only serves to reduce how far the iron can change polarity and making it easier to leave the iron core.
This is the process:
1: Magnet approaches iron core (no resistance because the diode allows no load on the coil in that direction)
2: Magnet passes coil to center of iron core where the polarity change starts and the voltage in the coil changes direction.
3: With no load on coil the iron fully changes polarity and causes an attraction as it leaves the iron ( the same pull as when it entered the iron)
4: With load on the coil the polarity change is resisted (lenz law) and the iron does not change polarity fully allowing the magnet to leave the iron with less force that when it entered the iron.
This is true!
Hi Charlie,Lumen and all
Thanks for comments and suggestions,I tried my idea,doesn't work,I think it ends up having a N and S approaching the coil,so it's rubbish!! not enough juice to feed a fly!!!
I will try your idea Lumen,with maybe a reed switch,I don't really have enough volts for a diode.
I seem to learn a lot more by finding out why things don't work.
Thanks all
peter
Haha unfortunately Peter, that's my case too. I always learn from things that don't work - and I'll say about 90% of what I do doesn't work!
Sorry Lumen, I didn't notice you were using a diode. I was viewing it from the point that the coil is going to resist the approach of the magnet - but the diode will stop that. But wouldn't the coil start energizing when the magnet got past the halfway point of the coil? And when this happens, I would think the coil is going to see a reducing north pole field. So it would generate a south pole which will reinforce the part of the magnet's flux that enters the coil. Although, this will also fight the other half of the magnet's flux (which is going the opposite direction through the rest of the iron - to the left as you have it drawn). And since the left half is diminishing, I would think the coil would generate some sort of Lenz drag. But you've done the experiment and it doesn't do this?
Yay 300 posts!
Charlie
I have tested only the timing of the coil output to the rotating magnet and it is like I have shown in the sketch other than some bad drawing.
The fact is, if the positive transition does not occur until the magnet it leaving the coil (center of rod), then lenz's law can only apply from this point on and it could only serve to reduce the drag.
I will do more tests after I build a more advanced test platform. With this reasoning it should be possible to build a generator that you could easily run with a motor and make more power than it takes to turn it.
I really don't see how this could be possible but it does look that way at this point.
Nothing is impossible! Sounds pretty interesting to me, let me know how further testing holds up.
@ Charlie,that's a 10% success rate!! which is about 10% better than me,so things for me can only improve!!
@ Lumen,look forward to your results
@All, doing some work on a mag.motor that will also give some juice,early tests look good,sounds to good to be true,so probably is!!
Good luck all.
peter
Hi guys. I wanted to show you some of the waveforms of my setup. Unfortunately, I can't disclose the setup yet. Yea I know, I know, what good is it then. Well Lumen was able to talk about his waveform and after taking this data today, I find it interesting that our waveforms look very similar but the setups are different. Could there be two ways to skin a cat?
The first picture shows a conventional waveform where a permanent magnet (single magnet -aka two poles) is rotated a half rotation. You can see the first half rotation (from south pole to north) produces a downward peak. The second rotation (from north back to south) generates a positive peak. This is pretty typical.
The next picture shows my setup's waveform. Each pulse is again a half rotation. Notice how it produces twice the frequency. Also, the polarity of the magnets do not matter. Rotating from south to north produces the same waveform as rotating north to south. This sort of looks like Lumen's waveform but more symmetrical - granted Lumen was hand drawing his so I won't pick too much haha ;).
The last picture is where I removed the essential components from my setup. You will notice that the voltage generated in my coil goes to pretty much zero. The small remaining bumps that you see could be further reduced with better balancing (by this I mean my coil was not uniformly wound). But I believe that these bumps are the only things that will contribute to back EMF in the setup. The "essential components" basically cause a secondary reaction that the coil sees and produces voltage in response - which is independent of the rotating magnet, yet intricately connected - perhaps action without reaction (one can only dream of course haha).
Right now I'm working on improving the voltage output and investigating more thoroughly how back emf sets up in this system (Lenz's law always applies, but whether or not the prime mover must ALWAYS feel the Lenz's force is what I want to question). You'll notice, if you can see the readings on the scope, that the conventional device yields much higher voltages (comparatively both waveforms were produced at the same rotational speed). The conventional method yields ~3 times more voltage output. I hope better design can improve this but I fear it will never be as strong. HOWEVER, if I can show that my system does not suffer from Lenz forces, then slightly lower voltage magnitudes won't matter (I'll just need a bigger setup).
At one point I was thinking of using a moving magnet to bend the field of a stationary magnet that would then induce a voltage without load to the moving magnet.
In the end though, it all boiled down to the fact that any time a field changes intensity through a coil, the coil will resist the change if there was any load on the coil.
The only question is whether the resistance, (lenz's law) is opposing or assisting the primary mover.
I think that is the answer we all are looking for.
Quotehe only question is whether the resistance, (lenz's law) is opposing or assisting the primary mover.
Or if the Lenz force does nothing. Nothing is good right?
Hi all,it seems impossible to get Mr Lenz to play on our team,and not the opposition,or to give up playing all together!!
peter
Not at all....most have just been peering through the wrong 'lenz' is all....
Consider:
QuoteCuriously enough, shortly after Faraday's initial experiments with a primitive version of the induction dynamo he discovered that the same voltage could be induced if the magnetic field pieces were affixed directly to the rotor, but that no voltage at all would be induced if the field pieces were rotated while the conductive disk was held stationary! He logically inferred that even if the field pieces were rotating, their magnetic fields must be stationary, and that the type of uniform magnetic field produced by a cylindrical magnet must therefore be a property of space itself (or perhaps more accurately, space-time) and was independent of the magnetic material which serves to create the field. [This quality or effect is an oddity which to this day has no truly satisfactory explanation, though a very good paper from the University of Maryland (Dept. of Physics; Berg & Alley, 2005) strongly suggests the real explanation may lie within the purview of Special Relativity: see www.physics.umd.edu/ . . . q218unipolar.pdf.] - Source: Stardrivedevice.com
http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/outreach/QOTW/arch11/q218unipolar.pdf
Far too few common sense progressional experiments are being done by garden variety researchers like ourselves, in order to gain a wide and stable foundation for discovery. Starting near the middle or end of another's quest, often proves to be critically flawed beginning for one's own.
So much remains largely unknown about even the basic dynamics of energy systems that there is much room for discovery still....
The biggest and brightest answers all too often remain hidden before the beginning. Where Simplicity reigns.
TS
@ TechStuf, I did some testing on unipolar generators and the main problem is that lenz's law still applies! That's why you can make a unipolar motor which is the same as a unipolar generator in reverse. If lenz's law did not apply the unipolar motor would not run.
I also believe if there is no lenz force generated then no work was done either. The trick is to get the force to go the same direction as the working force and not opposite it. In effect, the more work that gets done, the less work it takes.
Or like I say, the inverse lenz generator. ( If that could be real! )
The spirit of the law applies....Look at the alnico rod demonstration closely. I don't wish to abrogate 'lenz's law'....no, instead I wish to see it applied to it's fullest extent. Or should I simply say, closer to it's fullest extent. Well before reaching such, nature's perpetual wheelwork will turn and give us it's glistening back for someone to try and throw a saddle on.
Magnets make great levers. And their 'magical arms' are long indeed.
TS
i was going through this thread and have developed this understanding its a problem of watching number 6 or 9 in opposite directions
Most of the unipole generator works on this equation
The total electric potential developed is then determined by integrating this electric field along a radius from the center of the magnet (r = 0) to the outside radius R of the magnet:
E' = r=0R∫ v B dr = ω B R22 ,
where ω is the angular velocity of the magnet, and the linear velocity of a point in the magnet is:
v = ω x r.
the point to notice is we take the potential difference at points where we experience different magnetic poles in this case it will be AC and it we take potential difference at center of the magnet and one end either north facing or south facing it will generate pure DC
i will make a diagram and small test kit you will see that you can create high current at low voltages both AC and DC and i will explain how it works
faraday's laws do not apply in this case , mechanical power directly transfer to electrically energy. In this case only lose of energy is heat due to friction.
system is a failure due to its non workable production just like Stirling engine (external combustion vs internal combustion)
remember first external engine was developed having great heat lose its developed form with efficiency is internal combustion engine like wise HPO is the basic mechanism of electric city generation its advance version is coil based rotary generators
lenz force is nothing but the residual hysteresis magnetic field of the core material improvement in material will enhance the efficiency of generator.
if any body is interested then i will make diagram of system that can generate direct DC current using HPO
i would like you to look into teslas unipolar fuel less generator
if your a serious builder ..
i solved this unit some time ago ...
i fully understand how i can make this spit fire ... :D ;)
thats not a joke !
william
it is based on the golden spiral :)
what is HPO i get the hp but the o