I did some "experiments" today and I discovered something interesting. Currently I'm heavily into the Faraday type motor (still going very slow due the lack of uhhm...EVERYTHING) and all but I discovered a motor that doesn't need any electrical power. That is it uses magnets only Now you can describe it in two ways. One is using the Lorentz force law and the other is probably more intuitive to everyone which is plain logic. So I'll use plain logic and drawings ;D. If I could describe it one sentence I would say...It uses torque in a clever way. Currently still making the drawings.
Oke I'm finally done with the "presentation". Here it is (and attached for security purposes)...
http://ziosproject.com/NJ/mdip9.PNG
Please follow the panel numbers for convince sake. I tried my best to keep it simple and not boring. I would also like to place a request, anyone with the materials at hand willing to build it?
That looks good, broli. I can see you put some thought into that. An uncle of mine works for a manufacture who uses radial magnets. These magnets are not much bigger than a wrist watch battery and they're so strong I could barely pull them apart (I don't think they're radial magnets, but he said they were).
I'll try to get the magnets and experiment with this design.
Thanks gravityblock and good to hear you're going to give it a try. But I have to mention that such small magnets can give inconclusive results. There are a few parameters that play a role. The thickness of all the magnets, the thickness in this case is the height the magnets stick with out of the drawing in 3d. But the biggest factor would definitely be length. The longer the middle magnet the more torque. I was also thinking of newton's third law. Acording to my speculation if this works you can extract rotation from all three parts. Because they will all be spinning according to newton's third law. But that's too far ahead, I just hope the logic works.
I didn't think about the magnets being too small. I still want these magnet for myself because they are so strong.
I'll look around for some larger radial or axial magnets. I do have a few, but they are very weak, :(
I speculate that you will find that the attractive force will be dominant. Guessing that the rotor magnet will attract toward the outer ring and also to inner ring rather than resulting in a rotary force. Should be a fun experiment though.
In my experience, if a magnet can find any way to just sit there and lock, it will. :(
To bring this thread a bit up to date.
Attached is the electromagnet version, and as you can see it looks like the principle behind a dc motor. So if you can accept that a dc motor works why would this then not work??? You'd be denying the very fact that a dc motor works. Also Idea of using repelling magnets is attached + simulation of how the field would look like of a single cross section.
If a magnetic field never experience a change in field in front and the back, it will not go anywhere. The discmagnets will never have this change during one revolution. With a closed loop you curve the path in the same time as the rotormagnet are suppose to rotate too. The thing is that the rotor magnet is allways angular to the tangens of the circle, and therefor it never "experience" to rotate. So therefor this configuration will not work.
Br.
Vidar
Use the Lorentz force law and imagine the magnet being a loop like illustrated. Now tell me what would happen. Like I said, this is already proved in millions of machines we call DC motors. Magnetic dipoles and electric dipoles are two different beasts. Using this same concept on electric charges would give no rotation. Because the forces are radially to the center of rotation, while magnetic dipoles give rise to the Lorentz force which is perpendicular to the center of rotation.
I'm just using something I've never seen used before, that is a radial magnetic field.
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 11:23:16 AM
Use the Lorentz force law and imagine the magnet being a loop like illustrated. Now tell me what would happen. Like I said, this is already proved in millions of machines we call DC motors. Magnetic dipoles and electric dipoles are two different beasts. Using this same concept on electric charges would give no rotation. Because the forces are radially to the center of rotation, while magnetic dipoles give rise to the Lorentz force which is perpendicular to the center of rotation.
I'm just using something I've never seen used before, that is a radial magnetic field.
A regular DC motor is in fact an AC motor in the rotor because of the different connectors for each coil. The brushes will as the rotor spins, have contact with different coils all the time, so the magnetic force is on the same place and push the rotor away.
br.
Vidar
You didn't get the point. Use the right hand rule and tell me what you get. Look at the magnet as a loop of wire! Forget about brushes and what not, just use the Lorentz force law.
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 12:40:21 PM
You didn't get the point. Use the right hand rule and tell me what you get. Look at the magnet as a loop of wire! Forget about brushes and what not, just use the Lorentz force law.
You're right. I didn't see the point at first. I will lok closer to it, and get back to you. This can be interesting :)
Br.
Vidar
I realized you don't really need the outer ring, this is just to strengthen the field which will result in more torque. So the field of two cylindrical magnets repelling each other should prove the point. Attached is what it comes down to.
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
I realized you don't really need the outer ring, this is just to strengthen the field which will result in more torque. So the field of two cylindrical magnets repelling each other should prove the point. Attached is what it comes down to.
Hi,
This is the very same setup I tried once, except I had the rotomagnets inside between the ringmagnets. Do you think that will make a difference maybe? Because my experiment didn't work as long the rotormagnet had to follow around instead of escaping out of the system. The explanation is that when the stator magnets are facing with equal poles, there is just as many magnetic lines going into the rotor magnets as there are going out in oposite direction. So the field from the ringmagnets cancels out at the end, and no force is left for one direction.
If you look at a loudspeaker driver, the motor which is running the diaphragm uses a coil around a pole piece surrounded with magnets. This polepiece allows the magnetic flux to return to the ringmagnets THROUGH the coil. This results in magnetic lines which is going through the windings in one direction only from all sides of the coil. In your example, there isn't a path through the rotormagnet the magnetic lines from the ringmagnets are going, so the result is that all the magnetic lines are going out the same way they came in, and therfor cancels out.
The ringmagnets are often used as shielding on loudspeakers, and can be bought at any loudspeaker store where they are selling DIY-kits and loudspeaker components. I have four 6inch magnets of ferrite just for this purpose - making a countermagnetic field so my TV doesn't look strange.
Maybe there is a difference if the rotormagnets are going along the edge? I doubt, but I can try - I have all the parts needed to replicate your example.
br.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on March 13, 2009, 12:38:36 PM
A regular DC motor is in fact an AC motor in the rotor because of the different connectors for each coil. The brushes will as the rotor spins, have contact with different coils all the time, so the magnetic force is on the same place and push the rotor away.
br.
Vidar
We have DC and we have AC. Could there be something that has properties of both?
Take a look at the patented Sully Direct Current (SDC). It was briefly discussed in another thread - http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5293.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5293.0)
If broli's device works, would it be generating this new SDC electricity?
This stuff is way over my head, I'm just throwing out information here that may be relevant to support broli's idea.
Yes Low-Q you brought up an interesting design. One could use those pole pieces to get a much stronger and uniform radial field. All you have to do is put a magnet between the gaps.
But I went ahead and illustrated the field lines and if the magnet where a single loop of wire. You can use the right hand rule to find the force. But you have to be careful with this design. Let's say the field at the farthest part was weaker this would result into a weaker force. That means that closest force is strong but farthest force is weak so they could negate each other in torque. Best is to be sure that the field is near uniform
@gravityblock: I think your subject is a bit off topic. This idea is not difficult to understand. Look up how current carrying wires experience the Lorentz force in magnetic fields and you''ll get it.
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 04:18:50 PM
Yes Low-Q you brought up an interesting design. One could use those pole pieces to get a much stronger and uniform radial field. All you have to do is put a magnet between the gaps.
But I went ahead and illustrated the field lines and if the magnet where a single loop of wire. You can use the right hand rule to find the force. But you have to be careful with this design. Let's say the field at the farthest part was weaker this would result into a weaker force. That means that closest force is strong but farthest force is weak so they could negate each other in torque. Best is to be sure that the field is near uniform
@gravityblock: I think your subject is a bit off topic. This idea is not difficult to understand. Look up how current carrying wires experience the Lorentz force in magnetic fields and you''ll get it.
Well, the not so good thing about torque in a solid material, is that if the torque in the rotormagnet closest to the stator magnet is greatest, this torque will be "transfered" over the whole piece of the rotormagnet. So that means the farthest part of the rotor magnet wants to go as much in one direction as the closest part is going in the other way. That means you cannot transfer the center of torque from the midle of the rotormagnet, and into the shaft in center of the ringmagnet. You need a force that is affecting the whole rotormagnet in the same direction. And how are you gonna do that?
Also try to imagine how the statormagnet would start to rotate if the rotormagnets is fixed, and the statormagnet is on an axle.
You need magnetical potential difference between the area ahead and behind the direction of rotation you want the rotormagnet to go. And that will not happen in your design.
Br.
Vidar
Of course you can transfer the torque. Just apply the torque formula. Torque = Force * distance. Add up the torque from both forces and make sure it's not 0. Below is an example of it being 0 on the shaft even though there's a net torque on the center of the rotor magnet. I hope this makes it clear now.
Sorry for being unclear. What I ment was that the torque in the rotormagnet around the center of it, cannot be moved closer to the joint at the left side because it is only the magnet that is affected - not the rod/arm it is connected to. However, the torque at the left and right side of the rotormagnet is equal if the axis is in the center of the mangnet - even if the force affecting the closest and farthest part are different, they sum up in a total torque around the center of the magnet that is equal because the magnet is not changing shape - it's solid.
Anyways, do we agree that your design will not work?
br.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on March 13, 2009, 06:34:18 PM
Sorry for being unclear. What I ment was that the torque in the rotormagnet around the center of it, cannot be moved closer to the joint at the left side because it is only the magnet that is affected - not the rod/arm it is connected to. However, the torque at the left and right side of the rotormagnet is equal if the axis is in the center of the mangnet - even if the force affecting the closest and farthest part are different, they sum up in a total torque around the center of the magnet that is equal because the magnet is not changing shape - it's solid.
Anyways, do we agree that your design will not work?
br.
Vidar
What? Sorry but you need to study mechanics a bit more. This is pretty basic stuff. This design is so simple and clear that there is not a single reason why it wouldn't work. I'm not looking for discussion about the concept as I'm pretty convinced that anyone with basic mechanic and electricity knowledge would say it would rotate, I'm looking for someone who can make a build out of it as I can't even tie my shoe lasses at the moment.
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 06:38:33 PM
What? Sorry but you need to study mechanics a bit more. This is pretty basic stuff. This design is so simple and clear that there is not a single reason why it wouldn't work. I'm not looking for discussion about the concept as I'm pretty convinced that anyone with basic mechanic and electricity knowledge would say it would rotate, I'm looking for someone who can make a build out of it as I can't even tie my shoe lasses at the moment.
No, we don't need to discuss it. The rotormagnet will not change position in proportion to the statormagnet. The torque affecting the rotormagnet will only affect that magnet, and you have to look at where the center of thet torque is present. That is in the very middle of the rotormagnet. So the statormagnet wants to rotate around this center too. It is the magnetism from the statormagnets that is making torque in the rotormagnet. The rotormagnet want to flip around in a much steeper curve than the curve it is mechanicly limited to. You prevent mechanicly the magnet to flip around, so it will therefor never affect the torque in the totor at all. So it will not work.
This is very easy to replicate in practice, so I did. I let the statormagnet be the rotating one, and I kept the rotormagnet in my hand. That shouldn't make any difference. If you are right, the statormagnet would now start to spin. I can feel the force in the magnet I'm holding in, but it only wants to flip around its own axis, and nothing happens with the rotormagnet.
So the conclution is: No discussions - it will not work :)
br.
Vidar
Quote from: broli on March 13, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
I realized you don't really need the outer ring, this is just to strengthen the field which will result in more torque. So the field of two cylindrical magnets repelling each other should prove the point. Attached is what it comes down to.
Sorry, but I kind of got lost... Getting back to the original idea, shouldn't the rotomagnets be inside the ringmagnets? Also, the ringmagnets should be facing each other with different poles (they are south-south and they should be north-south or vice-versa). Shouldn't one of the ringmagnets be flipped?
Low-Q, did you also try this kind of configuration? What were the conclusions?
(If this does not work I have some other configuration that might, but I am unable to test them...)
Oyashiro-sama
The configuration is correct. If the main magnets are attracting it should not work. This is based from experiments done with electromagnets that is why I assumed a permanent magnet should give the same result. And yes it can be in between it.