I posted this but its already getting Buried in other post. So here it can not get buried.
This is the device in which will trigger the injector, perhaps toggling the reset pin on a 555 timer with a very long delay.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6702.0;attach=31651;image
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6702.0;attach=31652;image
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6702.0;attach=31653;image (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6702.0;attach=31653;image)
There want be any electronics controlling the injector, There is no room for electronics in the time barrier.
At 800 rpm idle, the valve only opens for 37 Milliseconds, "about the time it takes to blink your eye one time." So the Injector Tuning set screw will be wired directly to the coil of the relay switch. When there is no power to this relay the injector will be open. When the valve is touching the set screw the valve will remain shut.
How do you regulate your flow rate, or amount of injection if there are no electronics? Well, even if you used electronics you still couldn't regulate your flow rate beyound 37 ms at idle. The answer to this question is you regulate the flow rate in which flows during idle by adjusting the amount of PSI located in the storage area. The higher the psi the more the flow rate. So you may find that with a 1.5 MM opening at the tip of the injector you must maintain 13 and 3 quarter pound pressure to deliver 2.6 cc's of hydroxy gas in that 37 ms.
If you rev the engine up you no longer have 37 ms, The higher the rpm's the shorter length of time you have to inject the gas.
If your injecting 2.6 cc's per opening at 13 pound pressure at 800 rpms and you want to go up to 2000 rpms and inject the same amount of gas, you will find that you have to allow the psi to rise to about 25 psi to inject 2.6 cc's at 2000 rpm's. You use your pressure to control your flow rate, there is no electronics needed to do this, and if you wanted to use electronics to control it you wouldn't be able to because there is simply no time for it period!
The key to controlling the flow rate or amount of gas injected is found in your injector exit port size, and mainly your psi. If you have an 1/8 th Exit port and your wanting to diliver 2.6 cc's of gas on idel, you may require only 10 psi, if you use a smaller hole size you must have an higher psi to dilivere the same amount of gas. So you can see how your injectors exit port is related to the psi you'll be using and your flow rate.
There will come this formula, My Exit port hole size is 1.5 mm, and i need to inject 2.4 cc's in 37 ms. How much Psi is required.
Thanks Mate;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS4CtfuGgrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfWUD03PaFY
Injector being demonstrated under water with the working circuit.
Brian
thanks for sharing this
Chet
Everything is great accept for the injectors... I've looked at many different cars, Dodge neon, Astro Van,, Old For Escourt, "the best" and cavaliers... Most of the injectors have 4 very small openings at its tip. Only on the ford escourt you can tear the 4 small holes off to reveal an opening of 1 mm. The other injectors are made to where you cant really remove the small metal that contains the 4 holes.
I cant seem to get much gas threw the 1mm hole, i've tried 3 injectors in parallel to get 3mm but still i didn't see it improve the flow rate. My Hydroxy tank is only capable of 4 PSI before bad things start to happen. So right now,,,, its a no go.
I might look into some electronic solenoid valves,, 37 ms comes and goes very very quick.
Can you separate your HHO Production and delivery systems?
Perhaps a 10 psi pump on the end of your bubbler pump through another bubbler (to protect your pump) and have the tubing to the injector about 2 -3 times thinner (inner diameter, the wall thickness will need to be able to stand the pressure) this should compensate for the pump... kind of like cramming your 4 psi into a smaller tube to make the pressure higher.
Using an injector implements another safety barrier in your installation. I haven't heard of any of the newer cells getting destroyed flashbacks because of the introduction of bubblers. But what happens if the ambient temp under the bonnet is enough to evaporate your bubbler... and you don't notice. These sorts of things need to be thought of and i think that with and injector style apllication you can get greater precision in your HHO applications then just wofting amounts in and hoping that the acceleration lag on your cell is small enough... i would prefer to have a better system that keeps all of the ratios for combustion at a constant no matter how much i feather the throttle. But that is me.
Quote from: Loner on March 16, 2009, 02:48:47 AM
I'm sorry, but Why the injector for the gas?
The only time I ran a small ICE on HHO, I found it simpler to just use a small tube from a valve right into the intake port. The valve was then the throttle. This actually worked very well, though the linkage was a pain to get free enough to operate from the engine governor. I had more trouble adjusting the timing, and used a much more complex method than yours for that.
Now that I have seen your intake valve switch, I mat change to using that as a timing reference, as it's easier, but there is no valve operation near TDC, so I just realized I have to stick with the hall effect.
Little Question? Why do you think electronics would be too slow? A basic Radio Shack transsitor would be plenty fast and you are using a driver transistor anyway? A Hall Effect transistor, mounted inside the inspection plate near the valve spring would be a faster switch, with no mechanical wear.
Just my curiosity getting the best of me, as the work you have done and the pictures provided are great!
(I'm sure your aware that the injectors flow rate is carefully metered from the manufacturer, because they use the "ON" time to meter the fuel. This might limit the max amount of gas at lower pressures.)
It was and efficiency test for the 1000th time. The theory is cut the gas off when its not needed, i cant explain this again. The valve stays open for 37 ms on idle and your flow rate is normally 166 cc's a second. SInce your only inhaling a total of 250 ms out of one second, but yet you're producing 166 cc's a second,, should i go further?
It isn't that the electronics is to slow,,, IT IS why would you want the injector to be open after the intake valve has closed lol. There's simply no need for electronics. The injector opens with the valve, and it closes with it no matter the rpm. It would be nice if the injector could open before the intake valve opened. But you see why electronics isn't needed, "computer delays that is." No room for a delay because the valves already shut...
And yes, the injectors have a thin metal layer over their tips containing 4 very very small holes, this "busted the gas into a mist." if you remove this thin metal layer containing the holes you get a nice 1 mm exit hole. Still not much good since you cant hardly get anything much to flow threw a 1mm hole. So this leads you to solenoids... Then you have brought up the fact that under a load what happens when you have to control the Spunk. Which makes this setup look shitty.
Yah,,, things dont look good for this setup even if the numbers do show efficiency is there,, i don't think i'll go threw with it after today.
LPG systems are available with sequential gas injectors, this technology is already out there.
During the fuel crisis of WW2, hydrogen was often used by businesses to run their vehicles. They had large hydrogen gas tanks strapped to the roofs, so we know that you can run an ICE with hydrogen or Hydroxy. The problem simply remains that we can't produce enough on demand to do so.
Surely the main issue and first problem to overcome should be the production of enough hydroxy on demand to do the job! Until this is achieved everything else is somewhat of a pointless exercise.
Loner, if you notice, all the calculations are done for an engine running at a set rpm. No consideration has been given to accelerating, fuel air mixture, or anything else for that matter.
QuoteFarrah Day, that is just not completely true...
Loner, are you saying that Boycie actually had a vehicle running on on-demand hydroxy??
Hi Loner
Yes I have watched the Boyce interview video, so I'm up to date as far as that goes, but I never heard that he actually ran a car on his WFC.
As far as I was aware, he used it on model boats, whereby the battery packs would suffice for a racing run, but not be able to maintain on-demand hydroxy indefinately... is this not the case?
I may be wrong here - and please correct me if so - but I never thought Bob ever had a car running from on-demand hydroxy which in itself suggests overunity.
i am fairly new at this thing so excuse me if what i say is way off.
if it have an alternator, it surely not a model boat.
if i remember right he sayed it was a 2 seats race boat.
i see at least one thing that is in both Mayer's and Boyce's systems.
high voltage modulation over "conventional" electrolysis.
Boyce's sayed that, in is last finding, 1 base frequency + 2 of its harmonics were even more effective.
the alternator was producing only one.
Ok time to blow some of this out of the water...
1. Yes the inline delivery system for LPG is out there already. I am looking for a doner car with an LPG conversion on it as it will be easier to implement.
2. getting the timing for the HHO injector to release at teh right time shall be easy. (signal wire from the petro injector)
3. as for alternator on model boats... if it is big enough it will need an alternator.
4.Electronic fuel injection is more efficient then the conventional alternative (thats why car manufactures use it)
also as a note you shoudl be able to push more through an injector with a higher pressure...
LPG = "Liquid" Propane Gas
I will guarantee you want be putting "Gas" threw those without some sorta mod. I want say it cant be done but it'll be damn near to impossible, you want use them as they set because its made to bust liquid into a mist and to do that requires very tiny holes.
Assuming your wanting to use the lpg injectors for a gas and not a liquid. Your best bet is an solenoid.
BTW,,, did you know it takes "270 Gallons" of natural gas to make 1 gallon of liquid propane...
unfortunately there are actual "gas" injectors. but hey everyone goes about it in their own way. Stop stressing i will not under any circumstances be attempting to inject a gas through an injector designed for a liquid. thats asking for trouble...
I was not aware they was made to inject gas, why would you do such a thing?
Past me some information on this Gas injector which is called an lpg injector, i'll look into it. If what you're saying is true then it be kinda neat and hard to digest because you can move tons of gas in liquid form, it takes an entirely lot of gas to move just a little liquid.
Very new to me!
I have programmed a pulse sequencing unit for coiled pulse motor research, maybe it would also be handy for someone wanting to optimise engine timing for HHO?
It takes a periodic sense signal, from hall sensor or reed switch etc. Then it produces a pulse of a cetain width (user specified in tenths of a degree). The pulse occurs after a delay (user specified in tenths of a degree). Resolution of the system is 4 us (0.004 ms). A small joystick switch (like mobile phones use) just to the right of the screen allows realtime adjutments by the user.
Interestingly, using this controller it would be possible to have an injector fire before the valve opens by specifying a long delay like 355 degrees, this would fire the injector 5 degrees before the sense signal occurs.
There is still plenty of code space left in the microcontroller for implementing maps so that the timing will dynamicly adjust around different engine states. anyone who wants the code, pm me, it is free for non commercial use. the freeduino controller and LCD screen can be purchased here: www.nuelectronics.com