i have read some of the posts from other forum by Aaron about plates isolating , so i got to work and varnished my plates with regular varnish both sides (THE REAL CAPACITOR DONT HAVE A CONECTION FROM ONE LEG TO ANOTHER!!!!) and the results are amazing i don't have a "fog" in my container, bubells are much bigger and voltage is getting very high up to 1,6kv and up, usually i had 600 -800 volts with my rewired alternator.
so i think that the isolation of the electrodes is very important to get high voltage !!
i haven't notice any heat increase over 10 minutes of work
well my next step is to make this diagram and connect it to my isolated plates
this will get me around 20 kV
so my question is what kind a LIQIUD ISOLATOR should i use to my plates to isolate 20kV ?
cheers from poland
Woj,
Just a thought, if you used distilled water in your cell, the distilled water would act as an insulator between plates.
Room3327
i have tried distiled ,but i still conduct water ,
its all about isolating plates , what i have also notice, the bubbles sticking to bottom of my container for a while and then go up, just like they would be attracted to plastic ??? i use regular clear bucket ... so maybe i should use this delrin isolator as a material for my cell ???? i will try that too...
anyway i think high voltage electrolysis is key, and to get HV in your electrodes you have to isolate them with something ... then you get true capacitor (cell), if not you just have regular electrolysis
cheers from poland
Woj,
I think you are right or at least on the right track, from my experimenting a few months ago I found with my cell, built like a capacitor, that in distilled water the output increases continuously with applied voltage. The higher the voltage the more gas created. I built my cell from .012 nonmagnetic stainless steel cut into two strips 24" long X 1.25" wide and wound them together just like a capacitor. I held .050" clearance between the plates and it worked VERY well, better then most of what I see on the internet at 150 - 200 watts input. But I never took it past 150 volts input and my plates were not insulated. As soon as I get some time I am going to try insulating the plates and try very high voltage like 40KV and see what I get.
Room3327
thanks for reply
can you tell me what is the mane of epoxy or varnish that can handle 20kv and up ?
maybe some other stuff that you know?
thanks
wojwrobel
W
ITW makes a ceramic based epoxy ,I used it on high speed rail in USA to eliminate crosstalk between rails [originally developed in Nasa ceramic tile exper] Epcon 6
however I recently read in this Forum of another product [being used as you are trying]
Will look
Chet
what did you use to insulate your electrodes?
I ask this because I also tested this with 100% insulation, no leaks at all, but also no bubbles,
the only time I had some bubbles was when I used a weak insulator (Varnish) that got punctured and started to leak electrons to the water. but production was very little when comparing Power in VS gas production.
Electrojolt.
@Woj,
There are a couple things that I can think of that might work to insulate, one is 'corona dope' I used to be able to get it at Radio Shack, and the other thing that might work is the plastic liquid tool dip that can be found at hardware stores for coating handles of pliers and such. I believe that .010" of corona dope handles 20,000 volts, I don't know about the tool dip.
@Electrojolt,
What kind of voltage did you try in your experiments?
Quote from: Room3327 on March 22, 2009, 01:06:43 PM
@Electrojolt,
What kind of voltage did you try in your experiments?
I used 2 TV coils, so arround 50Kv
@Electrojolt,
Well that answers that question, thanks for saving me some time. Can I also ask what your cell configuration was like including things like dielectric thickness and plate spacing, mechanical configuration such as parallel plates or capacitive wound plates etc. as all of this will have an effect on whats happening as I'm sure you know.
Quote from: Room3327 on March 23, 2009, 01:10:51 PM
@Electrojolt,
Well that answers that question, thanks for saving me some time. Can I also ask what your cell configuration was like including things like dielectric thickness and plate spacing, mechanical configuration such as parallel plates or capacitive wound plates etc. as all of this will have an effect on whats happening as I'm sure you know.
When I tested this I used several configurations, I started used a small plastic cup, and 2 small aluminum foil pieces placed in oposite sides on the outside of the cup. the gap was pretty big. nothing happened.
I then made a retangular thin plastic container (about 0.5 mm) and with a gap of 5mm. also placed aluminum foil sheets. aplied about 50KV and nothing, no gas at all.
I also inserted small electrodes in the water to check if water was easier to break when exposed to the HV field. didn't notice anything.
and there is nothing gonna happend because water conducts electricy and your cell works as a wire from + to -
you have to islate electrodes and use electron resisting plastic container ....
cheers from poland
ps. soory for my english
im waiting for my corona dope (isolator) from radio shack and then will post some more pic and results from my project ...
Curious by your last reply there Woj as Electro surely has isolated electrodes and hence a good capacitor.
Quoteanyway i think high voltage electrolysis is key, and to get HV in your electrodes you have to isolate them with something ... then you get true capacitor (cell), if not you just have regular electrolysis
Not exactly sure what some of you are trying to achieve here. Anyway, it all comes down to the reliable old problem of trying to produce gas without current being drawn from the supply.
To quote the common adage, most people seem to 'want their cake and eat it'. Put HV across electrodes actually in contact with the water or solution and you get no capacitance to speak of and high current flow - standard electrolysis. Insulating the electrodes completely from the water or solution gives you a good capacitor with HV, no current flow, but of course, no gas either.
Unless you want to be forever going around in circles with this, you have to ask yourselves what are you doing to the water solution, and why you get no gas from completely insulated electrodes?
To me it is quite obvious what the problem is, but then I tend to look at things differently to everyone else. Too often ionisation is simply ignored. If you understand what is occurring in standard electrolysis and when you cause water to ionise, you will see that it doesn’t dissociate conveniently into 2H2 and O2, which is why HV alone will not result in evolving gas.
I expect that the HV is actually promoting ionisation, but that’s only the first part of the process, and without charge exchanging, the HV simply provides H+ and OH-.
How are you expecting to get gas evolved from the ions, H+ and OH-?
I assume that no one has looked at the thread I started on the ‘Dissociation of the Water Molecule’, because there are clues to solving the problem there.
Farrah Day,
Exactly, I did those tests long time ago, because people where spreading rumors about the excellent results they got with insulated electrodes. and it looks like it is coming back.
In my experience only electrodes insulated poorly evolve gas, and this is all still to do with ion exchange at the electrodes. The best way of completely insulating an electrode is to wrap ali foil around a glass jar and have the other electrode inside the jar, sitting a few mm from the inside. You will get no current flow at all... but no gas either!
But that is not to say that you have not increased ionisation, of the water between the electrodes.
Now I'm not exactly sure what conditioning of the electrodes Bob Boyce did, or why it is said to increase efficiency, but I have made my own experiments on this.
If you condition electrodes in tap water (particularly hard water that produces scale in kettles, aoround taps, etc), after time you will get a build-up of white compound on your cathode. I assume this is calcium carbonate (the main constituent of lime scale), and indeed I found that I could promote this by adding extra minerals to the water.
Interestingly, the white covering on the cathode is an insulator, and your multimeter will indicate the high resistance. However, the electrode will still produce gas. This I assume to be due to microscopic 'holes' in this insulation.
In fact, in my tests this insulation did not seem to affect the gas output of the cell, though it surely must have some consequence.
ok
have any of you guys tried ??
well i did with 2 plates covered with regular clear varnish and results are diferend than regular electrolysis the voltage increses to very high ,the current is very low i dont have forg just big bubbles but i just used regular varnish and its shorted after while thats why im trying with something better insulator like corona dope
i dont care what you say i gonna try it anyway and show the resuls
and you know what? the more people will accualy do something not just read and write nonsense
we will find out how hv electrolysis is working .....
do some testing and you will find out that you have the same results using 12V, 10A and by using 120V ,1A try it ....so P (power) P=U * J , W= V*A that is what meyer was trying to use and aperantly did
you will soon find out that using 1200V , 0,1 A will produce the same gas that 12V 10A or 120V 1A
im after elektro-chemistry school so i know what im saying
you can say im wrong i dont care i just wanted to share my results so maybe someboody will se some oportunity to use it in different way or configuration and may work for him .....
cheers
Woj,
I agree with you. I found the exact same thing with my experiments, it appears to me that it is in the watts applied to the cell. I have a couple ideas that don't appear to have been tried before. I think that it is only necessary to insulate 1 of the electrodes, not both. If we insulate the positive electrode and allow the negative to be in contact with the water, this will provide a source of electrons. The electrodes need to be isolated from each other for true capacitance effects but both do not need to be insulated. Also the test described above, used very small plates that were a considerable distance apart, this does not produce a very big capacitor, probably in the sub picofarad range. I think two long electrodes wound into a compact unit with about .050" seperation would give a much better test to determine if capacitance and HV work in a cell.
We need all ideas here, as to date, there are no devices of any kind that deliver overunity or can be proven to. There is no theory's by anyone that can be proven or confirmed. We do have a number of very intelligently thought out theory's here but they are still just theories. The fact is no one knows, so lets not throw out the baby with the bath water, one little thought of someone's may be the last piece of the puzzle.
Woj, I think that you will find that 'yes' some of us have tried various HV experiments and that is where the problems come in. I'm not being purposely negative here, just realistic. Your varnished electrodes were obviously never fantastic insulators in the first place - why not try an electrode outside of a glass jar as I stated if you want zero current flow?
Whether you care about what we say or not, is your prerogative, but I fully expect your results to speak for themselves over time, with no input from us.
Quoteyou will soon find out that using 1200V , 0,1 A will produce the same gas that 12V 10A or 120V 1A
The above is simply not true as you will soon find out from your own testing if you pursue this. In standard electrolysis, current is the defining factor for gas production - power is relatively irrelevant other than being a factor of efficiency. So 12V 10A will actually produce 10x more gas than 120V 1A.
What you said would defy Faraday's law of electrolysis, so do you have any theory as to the electrochemistry involved?
Bear in mind that some of us have been experimenting with this for quite some time and/or have backgrounds in science.
I’m not trying to put you off, just pointing out that you are currently covering ground that has been covered many times before, and that what is required now is to look at it from a different perspective.
What are your thoughts on ionisation? What part are you thinking this plays?
Room, your certainly right about one thing, you only have to insulate one electrode as this will create an open cct. But current won't flow around an open cct, so the electrons are not available unless a charge exchange can also take place at the +anode - and we're back to square one!
Farrah honey,
All capacitors are an open circuit!
And I admit that I don't have all the answers.
Generally agreed Room - and none of them give off gas!
Farrah,
You may be absolutly right, I'm not saying your not. But current can flow through a capacitor, easily, depends on frequency put into it. If you recall the moniker ICE, in capacitors current leads voltage so before the voltage can increase, current is already flowing. Also the field intensity between capacitor plates is very sensitive to the spacing between them. I believe it is, decrease the distance by half and increase the field intensity by 4 times. Glass is way to thick for what I am talking and maybe I'm talking out the bottom end. Who Knows? Do you have all the answers?
Hi Room
Don't forget that a capacitor only passes AC - a true capacitor is open circuit to dc or dc pulses.
Yes your right in that the capacitance is inversely proportional to the distance between the plates - the closer the plates, the greater the capacitance. But of course, this is all assuming that capacitance plays a part in a Meyer-type wfc... and I'm not entirely convinced it does. And you can't really have it both ways, either your capacitor is a true capacitor and no dc current flows, or it's not a capacitor and current flows through it.
I'm now thinking along the lines of the the electronics being the most important part of the Meyer WFC, but not in the way most people see it. I think the answer may well lie in Stifflers SEC. But again, this is only my opinion.
It's all well and good talking about capacitors and HV, but how do people explain the electrochemistry that is going on - what are the reactions that give rise to the evolution of gases? Any such idea must surely be supported at least by a proposed reaction at atomic/molecular level. I've stated my reasons as to why - in my mind - HV can not evolve gas, but I've had no one propose their own theory as to why it could.
People seem to find it all too easy to say things like, 'oh yes, we just put high voltage across electrodes and we get oxygen and hydrogen', as if that answers everything and requires no further discussion. To be meaningful, any such comment has to be backed by an appropriate balanced equation.
PS... I love it when you call me Honey!
Farrah Honey,
Like I've said before, we have some brilliant theories here, including yours, my thoughts on it are probably too simplistic, but in self defense, my background is electronics not chemistry so I am lost there. I am looking at it as brute force using voltage instead of current. Current can tear water molecules apart as you describe in your theory. I'm thinking if I can apply a voltage bias across the capacitive cell which would line the water molecules up and stretch them out between the plates and then hit them with a very high voltage to give them that last tug to snap the bonds and pull them apart. I am talking hundreds of volts bias before hitting it with a HV pulse. And also narrow spacing between plates to keep field intensity high. Probably to simple for what is going on in a cell but it's my thought on it.
Room lover
I have no problem with voltage pulses - high or other - pulling the water molecule apart as such, it's just that I assume this to give us H+ and OH-. I think that voltage pulses will cause ionisation due to electric field fluctuations, and so give us H+ and OH-, it's the what happens next in the voltage only scenario...
How do you get from H+ & OH- ions to 2h2 and O2 without the exchange of charges?
I believe that it is the electric field fluctuations caused by ion current flow in standard electrolysis that causes ionisation of the water molecule, but here we have electrodes for the H+ and OH- to exchange charges and so become O and H. With the voltage only set up we don't... see the problem?
The devil is in the detail... or in this case lack of detail.