I guess I'll keep posting until someone realizes that what I post might be of significance.
Below is yet another idea. If you understand magnets on a fundamental level you will grasp the reason of the setup. But even if you don't you can use your own intuition to come up with a reason. Again I rather like to show than talk. Below you see the concept. You see a stationary setup and 3 moving setups. The stationary setup has two magnets stuck to each other like illustrated. While the moving ones all are single magnets. All the setups are enclosed with shielding with their sides unshielded. Also included is the simulation of shielded versus unshielded setup which clearly shows the concentration of flux to be stretched on the sides which is exactly the asymmetry we need. Btw illustrated is a linear design a rotary designed is simply achieved by putting the moving magnets on a wheel.
This is btw very similar to the design I posted on the Howard Johnson track thread. Although it might not appear like it. I might revisit that design with this current experience.
Oke I managed to perfect the circular idea I started at that other thread.
The most important part of this whole idea is the tube shielding on the inside of the ring magnets. I also rendered two versions for the moving magnets, one shielded and the other unshielded. I was not sure which one works better so I added both. But I highly speculate the unshielded one would work better.
Then the last rendition shows the ring magnets replaced by conductors. This is merely to prove the concept. Because it's hell of a lot simpler to just wind a bunch of wire than go buy some big magnets. Also I'm not very sure if the results would be better if the wire windings were further to the OD (outer diameter) of the shield or if it was at the center between the OD and ID. Again I speculate that when wound nearer to the OD it might give more asymmetry and thus better results. But just to be on the safe side I positioned it in the middle.
Broli,
I don't get it. What moves?
Quote from: brian334 on April 02, 2009, 05:51:26 PM
Broli,
I don't get it. What moves?
The magnets on the rail. The purple vectors represent the forces that pull it on one side and push it on the other side.
Anybody out there?
If I can understand and realize the significance of this, then everyone should.
Maybe next time, try to start a thread like Didit's New Design Working or Clanzer's Roll on June 20 thread. Offer no description of what the device is or how the device works with no pictures, then you'll get lots of responses and views. Promise to give more info later, they want to be spoon fed. This thread would have been up to 11 pages of junk by now if you followed their model. ;)
But as soon as you offer anything that could possibly be legitimate, then nobody has interest. lol
Broli, this appears to be just another brick in the wall. :o
broli -
You've got alot of cool ideas, and your drawings/diagrams are unmatched in this forum.
What drawing program do you use?
So these ideas are related to the Howard Johnson gates? (N ATTRACTS N into gate etc)
I like the 2nd design better....
What is the proposed shielding material?
Have you tried any of these setups?
Rather than the magnets moving on a rail (high friction) , afix them to a wheel?
The wire loops drawings need to be modified as the fields are different than the static drawings?
Is the theory the exit force/push is greater than the wall/sticky spot of the entrance field?
Broli
So lets do a proof of concept. Whats the simplest way to do this ?
Make the mags from iron blanks[for the donuts] or electro Mags
Its not going to build itself
From the brickyard!!
Chet
Quote from: capthook on April 02, 2009, 08:06:33 PM
broli -
You've got alot of cool ideas, and your drawings/diagrams are unmatched in this forum.
What drawing program do you use?
Lightwave 3D.
I have past experience with it.
Quote from: capthook
So these ideas are related to the Howard Johnson gates?
It started from a thread about.
The magnetic vortices of HJ don't make sense to me,
so I used my own understanding of magnets.
I like the 2nd design better....
Quote from: capthook
What is the proposed shielding material?
Any good enough shield should do.
The higher the permeability the better? maybe.
Quote from: capthook
Have you tried any of these setups?
No.
Quote from: capthook
Rather than the magnets moving on a rail (high friction) , afix them to a wheel?
Rails are just to simplify the concept.
You can use w/e is best for you.
Quote from: capthook
The wire loops drawings need to be modified as the fields are different than the static drawings?
Not really. this is how the perfect needed magnet would look like. Namely a radially magnetized magnet.
But since they are very rare. You can use two ring magnets in repulsion to kind of simulation one radially magnetized magnet.
But the current loops simulate a true radially magnetized magnet.
Quote from: capthook
Is the theory the exit force/push is greater than the wall/sticky spot of the entrance field?
Without the shielding the sticky point will kill of the energy gains from the push and pulls.
The shielding is very important.
Quote from: ramset on April 02, 2009, 08:18:53 PM
Broli
So lets do a proof of concept. Whats the simplest way to do this ?
Make the mags from iron blanks[for the donuts] or electro Mags
Its not going to build itself
From the brickyard!!
Chet
Easiest setup to play around with is the electro magnet setup (unless you already have all the material for the first design).
What you need:
1) A lot of wire.
2) A thick ferromagnetic tube/pipe.
3) A strong cylindrical magnet.
How to build it:
1) Wind
a lot of wire like illustrated. Wire should be wound between the outer and inner diameter of the tube.
2) Do the same for the other side.
3) Build a rail that goes through the tube
4) Attach (neo) magnet to rail.
5) Make sure current will flow in opposite directions in the two windings.
6) Power on power.
7) See magnet jump in the gate.
...
8) Pray to god it gets shot out.
Notes:
Make sure inertia is also part of the experiment. Meaning experiment with different weights attached to your moving magnet.
Some disadvantages:
1) Induction of the loops.
Can be toned down by using loops on the perimeter (illustration will follow.)
2) Eddy currents.
Can be controller by using ceramic non conducting tube material...or
ring laminates stacked on each other to form a tube.
Quote from: broli on April 02, 2009, 08:22:14 PM
Lightwave 3D.
I have past experience with it.
And it shows! I've got trueSpace7.6, but have never found the time to learn it....
Those interested, get the free full version of trueSpace7.6 @
http://www.caligari.com/default.asp
(google bought them some time ago and made it free!)
Quote from: broli on April 02, 2009, 08:22:14 PM
Any good enough shield should do.
The higher the permeability the better? maybe.
MuMetal for example? And rather thick as the field needs to be canceled as much as possible. Thereby the drawing with the 'rotor' mags having shielding as well may offer a better chance of exit?
Quote from: capthook on April 02, 2009, 08:50:05 PM
MuMetal for example? And rather thick as the field needs to be canceled as much as possible. Thereby the drawing with the 'rotor' mags having shielding as well may offer a better chance of exit?
MuMetal is probably way beyond anyone's budget. Plain iron or steel should be good enough. Just make sure you can confirm the field inside the tube being much weaker than outside of it if so you have a good setup.
The more I think about that drawing the less reason I see for that shield. If you shield the moving magnets you just make the overall forces much weaker. So the message is, do not shield the moving magnets.
You just made me spark an another idea. I will post it tomorrow as I'm going to sleep now.
I may be getting ahead of myself here.
Could the Halbach array be used for shielding?
What would be the advantages and disadvantages of this type of shielding?
How to build a Halbach Array: http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html (http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html)
Broli
isn't mumetal on the back of old hard drive mags [salvage my favorite word]
Also for those who don't know http://sirzerp.blip.tv/#1618702
Chet
THE cheapest/best magnet supplier out there.
I've placed many orders with them, always A+.
http://www.magnet4less.com/index.php?cPath=2_28
3.54" OD x 1.77" ID x 0.63" thick, Grade C8, Ceramic Ring Magnet
(90mm OD x 45mm ID x 16mm thick)
$9.90 each
Grade C8
Magnetized through the Thickness 0.63"
Quote from: ramset on April 02, 2009, 09:14:05 PM
Also for those who don't know http://sirzerp.blip.tv/#1618702
Chet
Thanks for the link. That is awsum if the images do represent the exact dipole nature.
Keep the information flowing, now I can learn something. ;D
Gravity
Great stuff ,we need one of those
Cap't Thanks
Chet
This is the concept of my new idea I am working on.
It is easy to see how the magnets need to be setup for desired operation (or non operation)?
Anyway I am about to start construction on this just as soon as I am convinced the MYLOW device doesn't work. I do plan to give him just a bit more time but then it's on with the action.
im very intrigued by your idea,
basically the shielding allows for the force to be focused in a more perpendicular fashion so the magnetic field doesn't occur until it almost squared with the edge of the stationary magnets causing an attracting action on the "red" deemed pole and then following a repulsion of the "blue"
the only feeling i have with it is that it would want to stick on the way out and the "red" poles would align
if its more concentrated it might be harder for the magnet to "pop" through the other side to be repelled and pushed away
in addition the stronger the field is created the more drag will be induced in the moving magnets
i wonder if it would change anything if you used a double magnet for the moving magnets and used single magnets for the stationary one
*in the rotating/ track type one^**
those are only initial thoughts, curious to see when you/whoever tests it
until next time
I have my ring magnets ready. My next step is to build the rail. Still looking for a good ferromagnetic tube/pipe for the shielding of the ring magnets. Any suggestions for the thick ferromagnetic pipe would be appreciated. I won't have much time over the weekend to work on this, but I"ll try to have this completed by the 8th.
I have a feeling this will work if it's done right. If not, please don't kill the messenger. ;D
Thanks.
Quote from: gravityblock on April 04, 2009, 03:38:06 AM
I have my ring magnets ready. My next step is to build the rail. Still looking for a good ferromagnetic tube/pipe for the shielding of the ring magnets. Any suggestions for the thick ferromagnetic pipe would be appreciated. I won't have much time over the weekend to work on this, but I"ll try to have this completed by the 8th.
I have a feeling this will work if it's done right. If not, please don't kill the messenger. ;D
Thanks.
I doubt you have the tools for this. But you could use some roof flashing and use a hole saw that's very near the size of the inner diameter of the magnet...
http://images.google.be/images?hl=nl&q=hole%20saw&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
And another that's maybe 1 cm smaller than that. What you will then get is many laminates of it which you can stack to form a tube.
Another solution would be using dead batteries on the inside. Saw that they are quite good flux channelers on those magnetic shielding videos on youtube.
For those who may be interested, the ring magnets I posted earlier came from Wal-mart, in the automotive section. It is packaged as a 6" magnetic parts tray with a rubber case to protect the magnet and to prevent marring of surfaces, for less than $6.00 each. I'll post pictures of what the packaging looks like.
Broli, I am going to try the idea you suggested about the roof flashing and the hole saw. I found a set of hole saws I had previously bought. I need to obtain the roof flashing or other similar material before I can proceed with this experiment.
I will not make the deadline of the 8th for testing. I made the deadline for myself, so I would not procrastinate.
Quote from: broli on April 02, 2009, 05:13:50 PM
Oke I managed to perfect the circular idea I started at that other thread.
The most important part of this whole idea is the tube shielding on the inside of the ring magnets. I also rendered two versions for the moving magnets, one shielded and the other unshielded. I was not sure which one works better so I added both. But I highly speculate the unshielded one would work better.
Then the last rendition shows the ring magnets replaced by conductors. This is merely to prove the concept. Because it's hell of a lot simpler to just wind a bunch of wire than go buy some big magnets. Also I'm not very sure if the results would be better if the wire windings were further to the OD (outer diameter) of the shield or if it was at the center between the OD and ID. Again I speculate that when wound nearer to the OD it might give more asymmetry and thus better results. But just to be on the safe side I positioned it in the middle.
You are right about the forces in these drawings when the magnets are in the positions shown. In that very moment, there is a force in one direction.
If you push the magnets further in that direction, the rail magnet that is closing the ringmagnet, will feel a stronger and stronger attraction. My intuition says that when that closing magnet has became almost right in the middle of the ringmagnet, it will start to feel a counterforce that will prevent it to continue. It will find its equilibrium somewhere insde the ringmagnet
Regarding the shielding:
These will reduce the counterforce, but the shield does not distinguish between force and counterforce, so the force that is attracting and repelling the magnets on each side is also weaker accordingly.
I can make a simple demonstration in FEMM if you like. And we can look at the forces at any given time and distance, add them up, and see if there is a force greater than the counterforce.
EDIT: I read your later post, so I must test with unshielded moving magnets as well.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on April 08, 2009, 04:22:34 AM
You are right about the forces in these drawings when the magnets are in the positions shown. In that very moment, there is a force in one direction.
This is my finding on the forces. Both sides of the OD has the same polarity and both sides of the ID has the opposite polarity of the OD.
Quote from: Low-Q on April 08, 2009, 04:22:34 AM
If you push the magnets further in that direction, the rail magnet that is closing the ringmagnet, will feel a stronger and stronger attraction. My intuition says that when that closing magnet has became almost right in the middle of the ringmagnet, it will start to feel a counterforce that will prevent it to continue. It will find its equilibrium somewhere insde the ringmagnet
I agree with you Vidar. In the middle of the ring magnet, there is a counterforce that prevents it to continue, since the force on both sides of the ID of the ring magnet are pointing towards the middle of the ring magnet.
Quote from: Low-Q on April 08, 2009, 04:22:34 AM
Regarding the shielding:
These will reduce the counterforce, but the shield does not distinguish between force and counterforce, so the force that is attracting and repelling the magnets on each side is also weaker accordingly.
Eliminating the counterforce with the shielding will also eliminate the force of the magnets. Can't have one without the other. >:(
The only way I think this can be done, is to use a Halbach Array ring magnet. This type of ring magnet will have only one force coming from the same side of the ID and pointing in the same direction across the entire inside of the ring magnet with no opposition force from the other side. With this type of setup, the front of the rail magnet will be attracted through the ring magnet and the back of the rail magnet will be pushed through the ring magnet with no counterforce.
The problem with the Halbach array is that the magnetic field is focused in the arrays length, not width. So a ringmagnet with this array would probably not "see" the railmagnet as long that magnet isn't inside the ring in the magnetic field. The good thing however with Halbach array ringmagnet is that the magnetic flux is focused where it suppose to be when we use that array in a DC-motor. Most possible flux is present where it is desired to have it, and not spread out in the surroundings.
The other thing with the Halbach array is that the poles are shifting along the array - shouldnt be a problem if the railmagnet was configured likewise. However, the railmagnet must at some time and place rotate a bit in order to shift from attracting to repelling mode. This action must be done right in the middle of the highest flux density to achieve maximum attraction and repell moments. This operation requires great force. In fact so much force it will equalize all attractive and repelling forces in front an behind the Halbach array ring magnet. So the system will halt.
what is possible to test however, is to make a perfect counterforce for the rotation inside the Halbach array ring. This system can stay stationary and perfectly balanced, so each time the railmagnet is going in the "hole" to rotate enough to change polarity, this stationary counterforce would therfor allow the railmagnet to shift polarity without cost.
To be honest, I wonder how that works in practice. I have the idea in my head, so I might make a drawing of it on the paper, to easier see how it work - if it work.
Well, allways sceptic, but still open minded :)
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on April 08, 2009, 01:47:54 PM
The problem with the Halbach array is that the magnetic field is focused in the arrays length, not width. So a ringmagnet with this array would probably not "see" the railmagnet as long that magnet isn't inside the ring in the magnetic field. The good thing however with Halbach array ringmagnet is that the magnetic flux is focused where it suppose to be when we use that array in a DC-motor. Most possible flux is present where it is desired to have it, and not spread out in the surroundings.
The other thing with the Halbach array is that the poles are shifting along the array - shouldnt be a problem if the railmagnet was configured likewise. However, the railmagnet must at some time and place rotate a bit in order to shift from attracting to repelling mode. This action must be done right in the middle of the highest flux density to achieve maximum attraction and repell moments. This operation requires great force. In fact so much force it will equalize all attractive and repelling forces in front an behind the Halbach array ring magnet. So the system will halt.
what is possible to test however, is to make a perfect counterforce for the rotation inside the Halbach array ring. This system can stay stationary and perfectly balanced, so each time the railmagnet is going in the "hole" to rotate enough to change polarity, this stationary counterforce would therfor allow the railmagnet to shift polarity without cost.
To be honest, I wonder how that works in practice. I have the idea in my head, so I might make a drawing of it on the paper, to easier see how it work - if it work.
Well, allways sceptic, but still open minded :)
Vidar
Vidar, it all depends on how you build your Halbach cylinder array. Take a look at the Halbach cylinders on wikipedia and you will see how you can have a field on the ID of the ringmagnet,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_cylinder#Halbach_cylinder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_cylinder#Halbach_cylinder)
The poles don't shift along the array. What you see as the poles shifting, is causing the field to be canceled on one side and strengthened on the other side. I don't think the rail magnet needs to be a Halbach cylinder, since there would only be one pole pointing in the same direction across the entire inside of the ring magnet.
Try to think of it like this. On the front side of the ring magnet, you can have a very strong north pole on both the OD and ID. On the back side of the ring magnet, you can have a very weak to no south pole on both the OD and ID. I may be wrong about this, but I don't see why the array can't be built for the desired results we would like.
Here's a youtube video on one of the configurations you could have with a Halbach array cylinder,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-9IAj_YnI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-9IAj_YnI&feature=related)
I've tried a few different materials for the shielding. I'm currently using batteries for the shielding in the ring magnet and a thin piece of metal for the rail magnet. I have the best results when both magnets are shielded. I think repulsive mode on entry works best. The rail magnet shoots through the ring magnet once it gets past a small sticky point on entry, but it is not able to free itself from the batteries on the other side.
I need to have a spacer between the batteries and the rail magnet so they won't stick together, but there is no room left on the inside diameter of the ring magnet. I need either smaller batteries or a smaller diameter rail magnet in order to test this.
I think the appropriate material for the shielding and spacers are critical, just like broli said, in order to have a positive results in this experiment.
I'm attaching pictures of the setup I currently have, with the rail magnet on the inside of the batteries. This is the point at which the rail magnet stopped at after coming though the back side of the ring magnet. Also, in the background is a picture of Sammy Terry that my girlfriend chalked. ;D
It would be good to study this idea from our thrice blest leader:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm1.htm
There may well be something to be gained.
Paul.
Quote from: gravityblock on April 08, 2009, 11:56:34 PM
I've tried a few different materials for the shielding. I'm currently using batteries for the shielding in the ring magnet and a thin piece of metal for the rail magnet. I have the best results when both magnets are shielded. I think repulsive mode on entry works best. The rail magnet shoots through the ring magnet once it gets past a small sticky point on entry, but it is not able to free itself from the batteries on the other side.
I need to have a spacer between the batteries and the rail magnet so they won't stick together, but there is no room left on the inside diameter of the ring magnet. I need either smaller batteries or a smaller diameter rail magnet in order to test this.
I think the appropriate material for the shielding and spacers are critical, just like broli said, in order to have a positive results in this experiment.
I'm attaching pictures of the setup I currently have, with the rail magnet on the inside of the batteries. This is the point at which the rail magnet stopped at after coming though the back side of the ring magnet. Also, in the background is a picture of Sammy Terry that my girlfriend chalked. ;D
You can use regular nails as shielding. Just cut the heads of the nails off first. Nails in any size ans length can be bought in any wood ware store.
The "small sticky" spot you mentioned doesn't last for long, but it is relatively powerful in order to balance the total forces in a closed loop into zero, so you have to find a way to remove it or reduce it without affecting the other desired forces along the rails. That is the most tricky and most "impossible" part of a working magnet motor.
Anyway, batteries can be replaced by nails. Then you get more inner diameter. Good luck, and nice chalked picture btw. :)
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: Paul-R on April 09, 2009, 09:53:42 AM
It would be good to study this idea from our thrice blest leader:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm1.htm
There may well be something to be gained.
Paul.
If it just was that easy. I have seen it before, so I tested this very setup a while ago. There is a few non-obvious forces that counterforce the system. Permanentmagnets tends to conserve the field at any time. That means they want to cancel out any potential difference in the system, in order to conserve the magnetic field. This means that there is no potential magnetic difference that will provide a unidirectional acceleration and speed of the permanentmagnet.
Look at the field lines in the example in one of the links. They are acually not directed in one direction, but pinched at one side and expanded on the other side - no net movement of the magnetic field is present. What a circular magnetic field from a wire does is to guide the magnetic field behind it so the wire has free "magnetic space" to "fall" into, and simultaneously is pushed forward by the densed magnetic field behind it.
This cant be done with permanentmagnets without having another magnetic circuit that is the very opposite - and therefor cancel out the force.
Ofcourse, according to someone this fact is BS and pure heresy. But that does unfortunately not change the facts in any way.
Br.
Vidar
I found something interesting with the shielding.
Take a piece of metal that is highly attracted to a magnet and attach the magnet's south pole to the metal (front side). Now, place another magnet on the same side of the metal (front side) at the opposite end, with it's south pole attached to the metal. With this arrangement, when you take a third magnet and come in on the back side of the metal, you will feel a repelling force as you approach the metal with one of it's poles. If you continue, then it will attract to the metal and overcome the repelling force. Also, another piece of metal will stick to the backside of the metal. So, with this arrangement, the shielding spread the magnetic field over a greater area on the back side of the metal, but didn't eliminate it (sticky spot is weaker, but covers a larger area).
Now flip one magnet over (where it's north pole is attached to the metal), but keep it on the same side of the metal as the other magnet. With this arrangement, you will feel no repelling force as you approach the backside of the metal with either pole, and it will be immediately attracted to the metal. Also, another piece of metal will not stick to the backside of the metal. So, with this arrangement, the shielding eliminated the magnetic field on the backside of the metal (no sticky spot).
This works the other way around also, with the metal sandwiched between the magnets. Another piece of metal won't stick to either side of the sandwiched metal. This gives me a few ideas for a magnet motor.
Tell me how or if we can use this to our benefit with the shielding of the ring magnet's sticky spot.
Quote from: gravityblock on April 11, 2009, 08:43:12 AM
I found something interesting with the shielding.
Take a piece of metal that is highly attracted to a magnet and attach the magnet's south pole to the metal (front side). Now, place another magnet on the same side of the metal (front side) at the opposite end, with it's south pole attached to the metal. With this arrangement, when you take a third magnet and come in on the back side of the metal, you will feel a repelling force as you approach the metal with one of it's poles. If you continue, then it will attract to the metal and overcome the repelling force. Also, another piece of metal will stick to the backside of the metal. So, with this arrangement, the shielding spread the magnetic field over a greater area on the back side of the metal, but didn't eliminate it (sticky spot is weaker, but covers a larger area).
Now flip one magnet over (where it's north pole is attached to the metal), but keep it on the same side of the metal as the other magnet. With this arrangement, you will feel no repelling force as you approach the backside of the metal with either pole, and it will be immediately attracted to the metal. Also, another piece of metal will not stick to the backside of the metal. So, with this arrangement, the shielding eliminated the magnetic field on the backside of the metal (no sticky spot).
This works the other way around also, with the metal sandwiched between the magnets. Another piece of metal won't stick to either side of the sandwiched metal. This gives me a few ideas for a magnet motor.
Tell me how or if we can use this to our benefit with the shielding of the ring magnet's sticky spot.
Drawings?
Instead of drawings, I uploaded two small videos to youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81SxByRNR8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81SxByRNR8) and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE)
The videos are grainy and a little dark, but you should be able to see what I'm talking about in regards to the shielding being able to eliminate the sticky spot if properly done. If the videos are unclear or you still don't know what I'm talking about, please let me know, and I will upload a better video.
GB, let me tell you what I think of your experiment.
First of all it shows that instead of using a PM magnet a ferromagnetic material might be better. Second of all. It brings up kind of a brain dilemma to me. I don't know exactly how to communicate it over. If you consider the ferromagnetic change I just made and relook at the two ring magnets pancaked together including the shielding tubing on the inside you'll see that your experiment is very similar. But instead you just used one magnet and also shielded its back.
I know this is a bit confusing, my communication is a bit off at this late hour. But the main thing that you pointed out here is using ferromagnetic material instead of a PM.
Quote from: gravityblock on April 11, 2009, 07:23:23 PM
Instead of drawings, I uploaded two small videos to youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81SxByRNR8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81SxByRNR8) and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE)
The videos are grainy and a little dark, but you should be able to see what I'm talking about in regards to the shielding being able to eliminate the sticky spot if properly done. If the videos are unclear or you still don't know what I'm talking about, please let me know, and I will upload a better video.
In the first video:
Starts with both magnets with same pole towards the metal piece. Field will exit the metal piece somewhere in the middle of its surface and go towards the other pole on the magnets. This piece will therfor attract the screwdriver.
Ends with turning one magnet. About all fields are going parallell to the metal piece and directly to the other magnet. There is allmost no external field that attracts the screw driver.
Second video:
It starts with both magnets facing the metal piece with the same pole. The field will follow the piece and exit at the end/edge of it where the screwdriver is attracted. The field goes back to both magnets opposite pole. It ends with turning one magnet so the magnetic field will cross right over to the other magnet, and no magnetic field will exist in the end/edge of the metal piece.
Vidar
This allows both the rail magnet and ring magnet to be shielded without the rail magnet's shield to stick to the ring magnet's shield, which is a force keeping the rail magnet from escaping the shield of the ring magnet.
If the rail magnet is not shielded, then it will attract to the shielding of the ring magnet and keep it from escaping. The rail magnet and the ring magnet must both be shielded properly so they won't stick to each other.
Think of the screwdriver as being a shield. The screwdriver doesn't attract to the magnet's shield in the videos, but I can't keep the rail magnet's shield from attracting to the ring magnet's shield.
Since the shielding don't stick together in the video, then the shielding shouldn't stick to each other with the rail and ring magnet, but it does. :o
I'm going to try the nails for the shielding instead of the batteries, so I can have a uniform thickness of shielding for both the rail and ring magnets.
Quote from: gravityblock on April 12, 2009, 12:36:08 PM
This allows both the rail magnet and ring magnet to be shielded without the rail magnet's shield to stick to the ring magnet's shield, which is a force keeping the rail magnet from escaping the shield of the ring magnet.
If the rail magnet is not shielded, then it will attract to the shielding of the ring magnet and keep it from escaping. The rail magnet and the ring magnet must both be shielded properly so they won't stick to each other.
Think of the screwdriver as being a shield. The screwdriver doesn't attract to the magnet's shield in the videos, but I can't keep the rail magnet's shield from attracting to the ring magnet's shield.
Since the shielding don't stick together in the video, then the shielding shouldn't stick to each other with the rail and ring magnet, but it does. :o
I'm going to try the nails for the shielding instead of the batteries, so I can have a uniform thickness of shielding for both the rail and ring magnets.
Yes, try nails. It can be hard to place the last few nails as they will repell eachother because they are magnetized in the same direction all of them.
Also have in mind that magnetism will follow the easiest path - that is for both rail magnet and the ring magnet. So probably you will end up with the very same mechanism as without shielding at all, but with weaker force - as the shield will steal a lot of the magnetism in the air that you want to attract the rail magnet and repell it with. So a shield will weaken the sticky spot also, but will also weaken the force in advance and afterwords that is suppose to fight that sticky spot - if you know what i mean.
Hopefully these two options isn't perfectly related, but let us see what is happening in a closed loop first. Then we can discuss further what is happening, and why.
Vidar
Possible Success with one minor modification and an additional step in regards to the original design of Broli!
Minor modification with the rail magnet's shielding is required I believe. Have the shielding to be slightly greater than the length of the rail magnet. Push the rail magnet into the shield where half of the magnet isn't shielded. The rail magnet will travel through a tunnel with shielding material on the inside until it reaches the entry point of the ring magnet. The shielding of the tunnel will kill the sticky spot on the other half of the rail magnet that isn't shielded. Once the rail magnet is inside the ring magnet, the other half of the rail magnet is no longer shielded due to the tunnel, and will shoot through and completely out the ring magnet avoiding the sticky spot and all other counter forces.
I have verified the above, using individual real world steps and experiments. Now I need to automate these steps for a working device, and I will. ;D
Broli, you had this 98% accurate with your original design and concept.
Proof of Concept:I am now using one layer of nails around the inside diameter of the ring magnet and also using one layer of nails around the rail magnet for shielding, having excellent results and possibilities for a real world working device.
1) When the rail magnet is inside the shielded tunnel, their will be no magnetic field present. This supports Low-Q's idea of the shielding, which I agree with and tested. So, no field present, then no forces are present.
2) When the rail magnet is inside the shielded tunnel, the partially shielded magnet won't stick to the shielding material of the tunnel (there will also be space between the shielding materials to negate the attraction completely, and this is supported by the previous videos I posted along with other experiments.
3) Once the rail magnet is inside the ring magnet, the shielding of the tunnel, no longer has an affect on the partially shielded rail magnet, and the rail magnet will see the magnetic field of the ring magnet and shoot out. This has also been tested to be true.
Quote from: Low-Q on April 12, 2009, 01:58:59 PM
Hopefully these two options isn't perfectly related, but let us see what is happening in a closed loop first. Then we can discuss further what is happening, and why.
Vidar
As you can see, those two options you referred to in the above quote are not perfectly related. I'm ready for a further discussion. ;D
Here's a picture of the current setup I have using nails for shielding. The brown paper tube represents the tunnel that will have shielding on the inside. The tunnel will need to be closer to the ring magnet than in the picture, but I moved it away a little bit so you can see the inside of the ring magnet. The rail magnet is next to the tin that is holding the tunnel to center it with the ring magnet for demonstration purposes. If you look carefully at the rail magnet, you will see half of the magnet is sticking out of the shield. The magnet for the rail will be last to enter the tunnel and ring magnet, so you know the direction that the rail magnet will be pointing and traveling.
Looks like you have experimented a lot @gravityblock.
I would like to suggest a simple test to confirm the system:
Use the tube as a guide in vertical position. Drop the railmagnet through the tube, as it works as a guide, and through the ring magnet and let the railmagnet just drop into the floor. So have a soft pillow it will hit on the floor.
Take the time it takes from you drop it till it hits the pillow.
Do the same drop without the tube and ringmagnet, but drop the railmagnet from the same hight.
If this works, the railmagnet would have a acceleration that will shorten the time it takes to hit the pillow.
You maybe have to use a videocamera to record the two experiments, so you probably will easier see which experiment that run fastest (if you can count the number of videoframes before the railmagnet hits the pillow)
Good luck, and ask if there is something unclear in my explanation.
Vidar
I think I have it narrowed down.
The tunnel will not work, it is only a partial solution. When the rail magnet is approaching the ring magnet, the shield should be fully covering the rail magnet. After the rail magnet is past the sticky spot, the shield needs to cover only half the magnet, and this will give the rail magnet a kick to the exit spot. At the exit spot, right before the exit spot sticky point, have the shield cover the opposite half of the rail magnet to free itself from the ring magnet.
We could use the tunnel at the exit spot to shield the other half, but I haven't figured out how to move it from the one half to the other half of the rail magnet inside the ring magnet without cost. Maybe a small tunnel at the entry and exit points would work.
We need a dynamic shielding of the rail magnet as it approaches, enters, and exit the ring magnet without cost (I think 2 of the 3 dynamic shielding positions, may already be workable). This is probably why Broli couldn't decide if the rail magnet needed to be shielded or not, since It needs to be shielded in a dynamic way. I need to think about this more. ;D
I know where this could work but will only tell her or him.
Where is the problem of shielding away a magnetic field with a equal opposite (controlled) field at the right time controlled by the microsecond.
Magnets work like a bubble. Just like a kids party bubble blower he makes attraction where he wants to get the attraction in the needed shape for his need.
Magnetic and gravitational bubble shape.
Can we make a bubble spin if the surface tension changes and the molecules react and move with the rest? YES WE CAN. Is that changing molecular structure or altering the magnetic's in a me way?
Sorry if you think my interpretation of what magnets and gravity can do is not to current science but even I can see things are wrong like a lot of you.