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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 04:41:35 PM

Title: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 04:41:35 PM
Hi everyone,

I don't quite know where to post this topic since there is nothing that I know of like it. It involves a permanent magnet and is a motor but it needs a small amount of AC electricity to make it work. Stefan can change the topic location to where he thinks is best if needed.

What I have found is using a Permanent Magnet with continuous Alternating Current (no commutator) going through an Air Core Coil with the magnet in the center as rotor can create motor rotation without switching the power on and off which is much like an induction motor. I also noticed a large amount of Torque compared to when the motor was previously using a commutator since using AC the coil is not really shutting off so the magnet rotor follows the coil activity. The big bonus is, since the rotor is a magnet as it rotates it makes the coil more and more efficient as the RPM increases. The other bonus is, contrary to the induction motor the more the load on the motor the less current it draws :o... I don't understand this yet ???... however there is a limit at this time due to slip (magnet rotor out of sync with coil) if the load is too much or the RPM is too high the rotor stops and can even reverse. However, I think that much improvements could be made considering the AC I'm using in the video is 50% duty cycle so who knows how far we can take this

The video demonstrates the basic effect using a motor I made a year ago for another project. So please keep this in mind that nothing is optimized and I'm using off the shelve parts I had.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4zmXU11A8

Please post your comments

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on April 12, 2009, 06:02:52 PM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 04:41:35 PM
Hi everyone,

I don't quite know where to post this topic since there is nothing that I know of like it. It involves a permanent magnet and is a motor but it needs a small amount of AC electricity to make it work. Stefan can change the topic location to where he thinks is best if needed.

What I have found is using a Permanent Magnet with continuous Alternating Current (no commutator) going through an Air Core Coil with the magnet in the center as rotor can create motor rotation without switching the power on and off which is much like an induction motor. I also noticed a large amount of Torque compared to when the motor was previously using a commutator since using AC the coil is not really shutting off so the magnet rotor follows the coil activity. The big bonus is, since the rotor is a magnet as it rotates it makes the coil more and more efficient as the RPM increases. The other bonus is, contrary to the induction motor the more the load on the motor the less current it draws :o... I don't understand this yet ???... however there is a limit at this time due to slip (magnet rotor out of sync with coil) if the load is too much or the RPM is too high the rotor stops and can even reverse. However, I think that much improvements could be made considering the AC I'm using in the video is 50% duty cycle so who knows how fare we can take this

The video demonstrates the basic effect using a motor I made a year ago for another project. So please keep this in mind that nothing is optimized and I'm using off the shelve parts I had.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4zmXU11A8

Please post your comments

Luc

That is why we use 3 phase AC which has a 120 degree offset that will more easily determind the rotation direction. A 1 phase AC will by accident turn the rotor one or the other way as you use 180 or 360 degree offset. I know of 3 phase brushless motors, small ones, with magnet rotor, and coil stator, with a efficiency of 95% or more. Your motor probably are better synced with load and lower speed, and therfor the efficiency gets much higher, and the amps goes down. Load it more and the amps will go up again.

Vidar
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 06:31:47 PM
Hi Vidar,

thanks for looking at this topic. That was also one of my thoughts to test with multiple phases.

Could you post a link, picture or something on a magnet rotor AC induction motor as I had no idea they existed.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: powercat on April 12, 2009, 06:55:36 PM
Yes another great thread from gotoluc  ;D
This reminds me a bit of Thane Heins Perepiteia

all the best gotoluc
cat
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 07:28:00 PM
Hi powercat,

thanks for looking.

You know, I was thinking of Thane when I could feel the Torque on the motor shaft and saw the amps dropping under load!... I though ::), this is exactly the kind of motor Thane needs ;D

I'll be sending him the link unless someone has already done so ;)

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 03:04:15 AM
AC is indeed different from square waves.

I assume he has the coils setup to oppose one another? ..to pulse in opposite directions as the rotor spins?
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: wings on April 13, 2009, 04:34:18 AM
it seem a synchronous motor with air coil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_motor
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Michelinho on April 13, 2009, 04:37:09 AM
Hi gotoluc,

Interesting video and I did something similar with my Newman motor V 1.0 driving it with my signal generator using square and sine waves last year. I did not have a ammeter connected so it went by as an interesting experiment.
I think that as you increase the load, the magnets does not create as strong a CEMF and the load diminish. Same as when you load the generator with the light but the speed drops faster and the rotor bucks to a stall. Same problem as you increase speed the CEMF makes the rotor lose sync.

Thanks for lighting one more cell in my poor brain.

Keep up the good work.

Michel

Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 03:04:15 AM
AC is indeed different from square waves.

I assume he has the coils setup to oppose one another? ..to pulse in opposite directions as the rotor spins?


Hi jadaro2600,

thanks for looking at this topic :) Can you explain more on your statement "AC is indeed different from square waves" because my understanding AC is square wave, triangle wave or sine wave. If a wave form is alternating polarities at every pulse I though this was AC. I would not want to make a mistake and I'm open to learning.

The coils are not setup to oppose one another. They are both in the same direction and connected in series in the 2 last tests of the video.

Luc

Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: broli on April 13, 2009, 12:46:25 PM
This is very interesting indeed.

I think the key to this motor is tuning it to the load like you said. When you load it you have to make sure the load does not have a bigger torque than your motor. If you can fine tune the load just where it almost equals your motor torque I then believe this spot will give you the lowest input current and highest efficiency results. Loading the motor any more will bring it to a halt like you have seen.

Also how does the motor do on higher frequencies than you just have shown?
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: wings on April 13, 2009, 04:34:18 AM
it seem a synchronous motor with air coil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_motor

Hi wings,

thanks for looking at this topic and posting a link to a Synchronous motor explanation. I had also done some searching before starting this topic and also found Synchronous motors to be close!... however, if you read the description it say the rotor has brushes.

"Synchronous motor is like an induction motor except the rotor is excited by a DC field. Slip rings and brushes are used to conduct current to rotor."

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 02:03:38 PM
Quote from: Michelinho on April 13, 2009, 04:37:09 AM
Hi gotoluc,

Interesting video and I did something similar with my Newman motor V 1.0 driving it with my signal generator using square and sine waves last year. I did not have a ammeter connected so it went by as an interesting experiment.
I think that as you increase the load, the magnets does not create as strong a CEMF and the load diminish. Same as when you load the generator with the light but the speed drops faster and the rotor bucks to a stall. Same problem as you increase speed the CEMF makes the rotor lose sync.

Thanks for lighting one more cell in my poor brain.

Keep up the good work.

Michel


Hi Michel,

thanks for taking a look at this topic and posting.

Very interesting that you tried your Newman motor with your SG. Maybe you want to try it again and see if you come up to the same thing that I'm finding or maybe more. One thing to note is when a load is added to the motor it has absolutely no drop in rpm unless you go beyond a certain point and create rotor slip which will stop the rotor.

Thanks for the positive comments and sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 02:19:28 PM
Quote from: broli on April 13, 2009, 12:46:25 PM
This is very interesting indeed.

I think the key to this motor is tuning it to the load like you said. When you load it you have to make sure the load does not have a bigger torque than your motor. If you can fine tune the load just where it almost equals your motor torque I then believe this spot will give you the lowest input current and highest efficiency results. Loading the motor any more will bring it to a halt like you have seen.

Also how does the motor do on higher frequencies than you just have shown?

Hi broli,

I'm glad you're looking at this and seeing so quickly the potential of this motor.

As you explained we could use a finely tuned fixed load to take advantage or we could have a rotor with many poles (demo has only 2) so the rotor has equal torque throughout the 360 degrees. The other thing that could be done is have multiple AC phases off sync in a way so we don't have any zero point.

I believe higher frequencies are defiantly possible however more voltage will be necessary. My generator output is quite limited at 20vpp.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on April 13, 2009, 04:21:15 PM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 12, 2009, 06:31:47 PM
Hi Vidar,

thanks for looking at this topic. That was also one of my thoughts to test with multiple phases.

Could you post a link, picture or something on a magnet rotor AC induction motor as I had no idea they existed.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor)
If you want one, you can go here: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi2814.htm (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi2814.htm)
I use this particular motor on a RC-plane - 110mph average, with 50 amps flowing through the coils at most. These motors are very powerful to its size. They are so called outrunners, as the 14 pole magnetic rotor is surrounding a 12 pole stator winding.

Vidar.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Tempest on April 13, 2009, 06:54:36 PM
Quote from: Low-Q on April 13, 2009, 04:21:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor)

I use this particular motor on a RC-plane - 110mph average, with 50 amps flowing through the coils at most.

Vidar.

Did you mean .5 amps and not 50 amp, because that would be one hell of a rc-plane

@ gotoluc

What you have there is an ac synchroness motor. They are used in the machine tool environment. Usually used with an encoder, resolver or tachometer. This way they can know precise speed, position and rotation. They almost always have a certain type of motor drive per motor. The wave form is sine wave because this makes for a more fluid motion. These motors can move very small amount with great repeatability (.0001 of an inch). Also they can hold that position to that degree.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Michelinho on April 13, 2009, 07:09:15 PM

@ gotoluc,

The motor is at my son-in-law's lab but I will try as soon as he brings it back. I will try it with my Simpson 1701 analog lab ammeter.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 07:33:38 PM
Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 03:04:15 AM
AC is indeed different from square waves.

I assume he has the coils setup to oppose one another? ..to pulse in opposite directions as the rotor spins?

..and then..

Quote from: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 12:09:02 PM

Hi jadaro2600,

thanks for looking at this topic :) Can you explain more on your statement "AC is indeed different from square waves" because my understanding AC is square wave, triangle wave or sine wave. If a wave form is alternating polarities at every pulse I though this was AC. I would not want to make a mistake and I'm open to learning.

The coils are not setup to oppose one another. They are both in the same direction and connected in series in the 2 last tests of the video.

Luc



....you cited me above, quoting; which was in reply to....

Quote from: Low-Q on April 12, 2009, 06:02:52 PM
That is why we use 3 phase AC which has a 120 degree offset that will more easily determind the rotation direction. A 1 phase AC will by accident turn the rotor one or the other way as you use 180 or 360 degree offset. I know of 3 phase brushless motors, small ones, with magnet rotor, and coil stator, with a efficiency of 95% or more. Your motor probably are better synced with load and lower speed, and therfor the efficiency gets much higher, and the amps goes down. Load it more and the amps will go up again.

Vidar

And I should have quoted it.  Was a mistake of context.  Thank you for dissecting the truth. :)

What I should have said was that conventional AC ( conventional being a sinusoidal wave ) is indeed different from square waves.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: IotaYodi on April 13, 2009, 09:16:15 PM
Quote"AC is indeed different from square waves" because my understanding AC is square wave, triangle wave or sine wave
Normal AC power is sinusoidal . Square and triangle waves are non-sinusoidal. A triangle wave is closer to a sine wave than a square wave. A sine wave will keep its wave shape when added to another sine wave of the same frequency and arbitrary phase. It is the only periodic waveform that does so. As far as my limited knowledge goes you must have a certain amount of harmonic distributions in square or triangle waves to emulate a sine wave. Im not familiar with the harmonics of it.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 09:40:14 PM
Quote from: Low-Q on April 13, 2009, 04:21:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_motor)
If you want one, you can go here: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi2814.htm (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi2814.htm)
I use this particular motor on a RC-plane - 110mph average, with 50 amps flowing through the coils at most. These motors are very powerful to its size. They are so called outrunners, as the 14 pole magnetic rotor is surrounding a 12 pole stator winding.

Vidar.

Hi Vidar,

thanks for taking the time to reply and post this information.

I looked at the wikipedia link and it looks to me that these motors seem to have metal core (not Air Core coils) and would have a very different behavior then the motor I'm demonstrating.

Please do correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly.

Thanks for sharing

Luc


Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 09:50:41 PM
Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 07:33:38 PM
..and then..

....you cited me above, quoting; which was in reply to....

And I should have quoted it.  Was a mistake of context.  Thank you for dissecting the truth. :)

What I should have said was that conventional AC ( conventional being a sinusoidal wave ) is indeed different from square waves.

Hi jadaro2600,

I understand now!... thanks for the explanation.

The motor works with sine wave but since my SG output is limited I was using square wave since it has more energy and made a better show for the video.

I think ideally sine wave should be used.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on April 14, 2009, 01:45:59 AM
50 amps, not 5. It is a fast plane - 750W motor. I must use 100 amp regulator on my biggest 3D plane. 2kw motor.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: wings on April 14, 2009, 02:33:31 AM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 01:53:45 PM
Hi wings,

thanks for looking at this topic and posting a link to a Synchronous motor explanation. I had also done some searching before starting this topic and also found Synchronous motors to be close!... however, if you read the description it say the rotor has brushes.

"Synchronous motor is like an induction motor except the rotor is excited by a DC field. Slip rings and brushes are used to conduct current to rotor."

Thanks for sharing

Luc

like this:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/4.html
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 14, 2009, 04:02:28 AM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 13, 2009, 09:50:41 PM
Hi jadaro2600,

I understand now!... thanks for the explanation.

The motor works with sine wave but since my SG output is limited I was using square wave since it has more energy and made a better show for the video.

I think ideally sine wave should be used.

Luc

Well, the type of wave actually flowing through tyhe circuit will vary due to the magnet spinning in it.

The square wave is on in one direction then on in the other suddenly.  There is no smoothness to it, so you may be right, however, there may be a series of waves which may better benefit the motion of the rotor.

One can use a sound card to produce constructive waveforms ...for instance,  mixing 12hz with 13hz will create another beat in the sine waves.  Sound cards can also be used to generate square waves as well, it just depends on the generator.

This is, however limited to the output high frequency of the sound card.. 48khz or 96khz for higher end.

You will also need an analog 'receiver' amplifier to power it.

...this may be an unusual way of doing things ...  but the motion of the permanent magnet rotor will cause it's own effects in the vicinity of the coils, this effect could be monitored as feedback.

For example: consider microphone feedback.

You may be able to tune in to the coil's noise and create a functional, constructive feedback which will compound the effects you are seeing.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2009, 08:23:20 PM
Quote from: wings on April 14, 2009, 02:33:31 AM
like this:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/4.html


Thanks for this good link wings ;)

I think these motors also have laminate steel cores with the coils wrapped around them.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2009, 08:27:21 PM
Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 14, 2009, 04:02:28 AM
Well, the type of wave actually flowing through tyhe circuit will vary due to the magnet spinning in it.

The square wave is on in one direction then on in the other suddenly.  There is no smoothness to it, so you may be right, however, there may be a series of waves which may better benefit the motion of the rotor.

One can use a sound card to produce constructive waveforms ...for instance,  mixing 12hz with 13hz will create another beat in the sine waves.  Sound cards can also be used to generate square waves as well, it just depends on the generator.

This is, however limited to the output high frequency of the sound card.. 48khz or 96khz for higher end.

You will also need an analog 'receiver' amplifier to power it.

...this may be an unusual way of doing things ...  but the motion of the permanent magnet rotor will cause it's own effects in the vicinity of the coils, this effect could be monitored as feedback.

For example: consider microphone feedback.

You may be able to tune in to the coil's noise and create a functional, constructive feedback which will compound the effects you are seeing.

Hi jadaro2600,

So many things to do and try ;D... it's all good stuff!

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 14, 2009, 09:01:22 PM
@everyone,

today I was experimenting with LOW FREQUENCY RESONANCE for the first time and I was able to get a coil to resonate as low as 17hz using sine wave. To get resonance this low I had to use two microwave oven transformer secondaries in series with a 10.6uf capacitor in parallel with the coil which are in total 7 Henrie's inductance and 146 Ohm DC resistance. Unfortunately I had to use the steel cores in the coil centers to raise the inductance to this level which leads me to believe that reaching 7 or 8 Henrie's without steel cores (Air Core) would take miles and miles of wire which would have too much resistance and end up being very costly and heavy :P

So It looks like I may not be able to build a resonating AIR CORE rotating magnet motor. No wonder Newman's motor weighs over a tonne ::)

I'm quite positive that the effect would not be there using steel cores :-\

If anyone has anything to suggest please feel free to post.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: powercat on April 14, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
HI Luc
maybe superconducting wire
here is the link manufacturers and distributors
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/superconducting-wire-94941002-1.html
all the best
cat
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: wings on April 15, 2009, 02:23:31 AM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 14, 2009, 09:01:22 PM
@everyone,

today I was experimenting with LOW FREQUENCY RESONANCE for the first time and I was able to get a coil to resonate as low as 17hz using sine wave. To get resonance this low I had to use two microwave oven transformer secondaries in series with a 10.6uf capacitor in parallel with the coil which are in total 7 Henrie's inductance and 146 Ohm DC resistance. Unfortunately I had to use the steel cores in the coil centers to raise the inductance to this level which leads me to believe that reaching 7 or 8 Henrie's without steel cores (Air Core) would take miles and miles of wire which would have too much resistance and end up being very costly and heavy :P

So It looks like I may not be able to build a resonating AIR CORE rotating magnet motor. No wonder Newman's motor weighs over a tonne ::)

I'm quite positive that the effect would not be there using steel cores :-\

If anyone has anything to suggest please feel free to post.

Luc

Wanlass motor?:

http://usajohnsons.com/cool_energy_stuff/experiments/awan.html
http://www.google.com/patents?id=9jc6AAAAEBAJ&dq=Electric+Motor+Having+Controlled+Magnetic+Flux+Density

http://www.google.com/patents?id=6n0wAAAAEBAJ&dq=Cravens+L.+Wanlass

http://www.google.com/patents?id=9jc6AAAAEBAJ&dq=Cravens+L.+Wanlass

http://www.google.com/patents?q=Cravens+L.+Wanlass&btnG=Search+Patents

story:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/Fed/971425.html&friend=nytimes

.......Rotoverter?
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on April 15, 2009, 02:40:48 AM
Quote from: powercat on April 14, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
HI Luc
maybe superconducting wire

Have you any idea on what it takes to run a superconductor?

First of all......It's EXPENSIVE....did I say expensive...yes I did.
                    And it's very brittle and takes advanced machinery
                    to make any type of coil.....and it's EXPENSIVE.

Secondly......You need to cool it down to at least 138 degrees Kelvin and keep it there.
                    That's -135 degrees C or -211 degrees Fahrenheit.
                    This is neither easy or cheap.

Thirdly...........Superconductivity is sensitive to moving/changing magnetic fields.
                     So unless a very careful design it jumps out of superconductivity
                     as soon as the motor or transformer starts up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_superconductivity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductivity

Quote:
However superconductivity is sensitive to moving magnetic fields so applications
that use alternating current (e.g. transformers) will be more difficult to develop than
those that rely upon direct current.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: AhuraMazda on April 15, 2009, 06:30:34 AM
Gotoluc,
I quickly looked through this thread and watched the video. First thing that came to my mind was that this is very similar to the Newman motor.
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: powercat on April 15, 2009, 06:58:50 AM
Quote from: Ergo on April 15, 2009, 02:40:48 AM
Have you any idea on what it takes to run a superconductor?

First of all......It's EXPENSIVE....did I say expensive...yes I did.
                    And it's very brittle and takes advanced machinery
                    to make any type of coil.....and it's EXPENSIVE.

Secondly......You need to cool it down to at least 138 degrees Kelvin and keep it there.
                    That's -135 degrees C or -211 degrees Fahrenheit.
                    This is neither easy or cheap.

Thirdly...........Superconductivity is sensitive to moving/changing magnetic fields.
                     So unless a very careful design it jumps out of superconductivity
                     as soon as the motor or transformer starts up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_superconductivity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductivity

Quote:
However superconductivity is sensitive to moving magnetic fields so applications
that use alternating current (e.g. transformers) will be more difficult to develop than
those that rely upon direct current.

Hi Ergo
Luc did say If anyone has anything to suggest please feel free to post
okay my knowledge is limited on the subject
Luc is dedicated to his work and in time these materials will be available to him
the link I posted was a bad one so here is a better one

Secrets behind high temperature superconductors revealed
http://www.physorg.com/news154538523.html

quote
An electrical current flowing round a loop of superconducting wire can also continue indefinitely, producing some of the most powerful electromagnets known to man

cat
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: wings on April 16, 2009, 02:56:02 PM
Quote from: gotoluc on April 14, 2009, 08:23:20 PM
Thanks for this good link wings ;)

I think these motors also have laminate steel cores with the coils wrapped around them.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
from:
http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html


@Luc , you can replicate this effect using the external signal of your generator in order to drive the coil with a short pulse.

It seem similar to Keppe motor, in this position (delta flux)/(delta t)=0  i.e. lenz effect is 0?

Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on April 17, 2009, 01:21:49 AM
Hi everyone,

thank you to all for taking the time to add your suggestions and comments ;)...  It's been kind of slow for me the past few days since I been helping my brother with some computer stuff. Also, I just finish rebuilding my H-Bridge circuit that had burnt to a crisp some months ago and just as I was hooking it up to test the motor with higher voltage some wires accidentally touched a 3900uf capacitor that was charged to 170 volts and blew most of the circuit apart. I'm thankful it wasn't me that took the blow :P  but I'm out of components to get it working again. So nothing new to report yet.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on June 08, 2009, 10:10:51 PM
Hi everyone,

it's been a while since I have posted. Been busy with helping friends with home renovations and also had a chance to make some money after close to 2 years of no income.

With all this my experiments have been quite slow but I'm still at it.

I just uploaded this new video which is demonstrating the results of experiments I have done in order to observe the interaction between a Ceramic Magnet and a steel laminate core coil, using Sine Wave as input.

Nothing exciting in the video but I found it interesting to see that the previously reported 7.8Hz Shumann's Earth magnetic frequency is not the magnet peek activity frequency at this time from my test setup.
Could my setup be causing this somehow? or could it be that the Earth magnetic frequency has risen in the past year or so since Marco's dancing magnets peeking at 7.8Hz?

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEcj99piSM0

Post your comments as you wish.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: petersone on June 09, 2009, 06:51:08 AM
Hi Luc
Interesting video,thanks for posting.
A couple of questions,would not the mass of the magnet affect the frequency at which it vibrates? and,are you driving the coil directly off the sig.gen?
Thanks again.
peter
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on June 09, 2009, 10:41:28 AM
Quote from: petersone on June 09, 2009, 06:51:08 AM
Hi Luc
Interesting video,thanks for posting.
A couple of questions,would not the mass of the magnet affect the frequency at which it vibrates? and,are you driving the coil directly off the sig.gen?
Thanks again.
peter

Hi Peter,

thanks for looking at this topic.

Glad to see you are thinking ;D ....I do agree with you that the mass of the magnet could have an effect on the oscillation speed or movement of the magnet.

It's also has been suggested to me that Marco's setup coil has a Ferrite core to which could also effect the results.

I will be retesting with a ferrite core coil and different size magnets to see how this has an effect on the frequency.

Stay tuned :D

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: petersone on June 09, 2009, 03:15:17 PM
Hi Luc,
Thanks for the answer,always nice to find I maybe thinking along the right lines,what about the second question?did you power the coil directly off the sig.gen?  I only ask as I have one, Wavtek23,that I haven't used yet,it may give me something to use it on!!!
peter
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on June 09, 2009, 04:21:36 PM
Quote from: petersone on June 09, 2009, 03:15:17 PM
Hi Luc,
Thanks for the answer,always nice to find I maybe thinking along the right lines,what about the second question?did you power the coil directly off the sig.gen?  I only ask as I have one, Wavtek23,that I haven't used yet,it may give me something to use it on!!!
peter

Hi Peter,

yes, I used the output directly out of the Wavetek but I think you will need a coil with many winding to create a field at such a low frequency.

Have fun and let us know what you find.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: poynt99 on June 09, 2009, 08:11:25 PM
Thanks Luc.

This is an electro-mechanical resonance phenomenon, and has nothing to do with Schumann's frequency. It is a coincidence that it falls in the same frequency range.

Try two things if you can, 1) put two of those magnets together (double the mass) and try it again, and 2) try a disc magnet of much larger diameter. In both cases you will probably get closer to the 7.8 Hz observed in the dancing magnets video.

.99
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: poynt99 on June 09, 2009, 09:26:15 PM
Luc,

I should mention that for AC current, your meter is rated for 1% accuracy from 40Hz to 10kHz. Down around 7Hz the meter is going to read quite a bit lower than true, so you are probably using a lot more current than what is indicated.

Just something to be aware of. ;)

.99
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on June 09, 2009, 11:23:35 PM
Hi .99,

thanks for looking and posting your thoughts.

Good chances you're right. I will test further and report the findings.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on June 10, 2009, 12:16:55 AM
Hi .99 and all,

I would have to agree with .99 that this is an electro-mechanical resonance phenomenon as I have now retested but using a Ferrite core coil and got the same oscillation peak at 9.63Hz using the 3/4" magnet I used in the video demo and then changed the magnet for a 1" round ceramic of the same thickness and the peek frequency dropped by about 2Hz.

I will take the video down since I do not wish to mislead anyone.

Thanks for your input .99 and others.

Luc
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: retrod on July 01, 2009, 05:53:11 PM
@gotoluc,

Quite by accident I came across this thread and your YT video. I have been working on a square wave driven air coil / spinning magnet experiment and I see you have already developed a motor that produces some work!

Thought you might be interested in seeing my first crude attempt using rather large coils.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBVzHKMDCoA

Keep going!

Dave
Title: Re: AC Permenent Magnet Motor
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2009, 10:01:38 AM
Thanks Dave for taking the time to look at my stuff and posting.

Your video also looks good ;)... who knows where this will lead us ;D

Thanks for sharing

Luc