Here is something that I would like to know...
Imagine a fan electric motor attached to a rotating rod of undetermined length and material. At certain distances small magnet assemblies are placed on the rod, and a matching copper coil on the outside -but not part of- the rod. Each of these coils are attached to a capacitator or battery, daisy chained to each other.
When you add sufficient coils and maybe add shielding between the coils so they do not interfere with each other individually. The only weight added to the rod (which may be any low weight material) are the magnets.
Would it theoretically be possible to close the loop?
Silly maybe, but, well, it is half-baked...
AZ
Hi AZ
Is'nt it just a motor running gen.running a motor,with Mr Lenz doing his bit with the coils and mags?
peter
Quote from: petersone on May 16, 2009, 09:40:58 AM
Hi AZ
Is'nt it just a motor running gen.running a motor,with Mr Lenz doing his bit with the coils and mags?
peter
Maybe... I just wondered if you can reach a threshold where you can have a capacitator power the motor with the power generated from a number of independent coils.
I would gather it is important to individually isolate the coils because if not you would have an overall zero gain.
Don't know and wonder if anyone ever tried this.
Hi AZ
Not sure I understand "I would gather it is important to individually isolate the coils because if not you would have an overall zero gain"
could you explain?
peter
I believe what he's saying is not that everything is as straight forward as one single theory. I do believe overunity is possible with a conventional generator and electric motor.
What turns a motor is F= BIL what makes a generator generate is U=BLv. What you want is high current so low resistance and slow rotation of the motor. While on the generator part you want low current so high resistance and high rotation. The motor will thus generate very little back EMF while the generator will generate very little back torque. The output on the generator will be very high voltage at low current. Assuming you can step this down to low voltage and high currents you are home free to close the loop.
This can be shown easily mathematically. But who's going to build the whole thing ;D .
AquariuZ (AZ) said:
Quote
Here is something that I would like to know... Imagine a fan electric motor attached to a rotating rod of undetermined length and material. At certain distances small magnet assemblies are placed on the rod, and a matching copper coil on the outside -but not part of- the rod. Each of these coils are attached to a capacitator or battery, daisy chained to each other.
>>You have the start of a good idea. There are others that think along your lines as well:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5427.0 ; initial post of the thread and also Reply #1, too.
Their assertions were similar to yours. Several coils can be used in one setup, so you might be onto something.
I myself have thought of a setup involving using the pulsating electromagnetic field of a fan motor to amplify the Back EMF of it through a Caduceus coil and then harvest it.
--Lee
big_m
Hi Broli
Thanks, it has been asked before on this forum,but I've not seen an answer,that is Di's it take the same energy to produce say 10 watts,
whether it's 1vx10amps or 10 amps x1v,it seems to me better to have the highest poss.volts but the out come is still 10 watts.
peter
I'm no electrical engineer but I don't know how easy it would be to for instance step down 100 volts to 1 volt with very minor energy losses.
Hi Broli
Thanks for your reply,but forget the trany,maybe the 100v or even 1000v is just what is wanted.
peter
I meant isolating each individual coil so that their respective fields do not influence each other. It is hard to explain in my laymans terms...
Thanks for the link, yes it looks like what Bendini is doing only I had something simpler in mind. Indeed just coils charging batteries feeding the batteries that runs the fan motor....
The other question would be if spinning magnets on a rotor would cause drag on the coils? If so that is an extra parameter to be taken into account when calculating the maximum number of coils whiich could be added (or the load that the fan motor can handle, i.e. the maximum weight/ lenght of the rod that is being turned by the fan motor).
Glad to see that it is not so weird an idea...
I have a fan motor, now with magnets coming I might try something. (Have just two batteries at the moment though)
Thanks guys
Hi Az
As you add mags. and coils you will get more juice,but also more Lenz effect,unless you know something I don't.
peter
It is not as easy as I first thought...
Aq, think about what I said. It does make sense ;D .
Motor => low resistance, high current, low rpm = high torque, low back EMF
Generator => high rpm, high resistance = high voltage, low current, low back torque
The motor is coupled to the generator through a high gear ratio.
The magic "juice" is the near perfect scaling of voltage and current.
Maybe I'll do some number crunching for a "practical" unit.
Hi folks, first off aquariz and all their are no failures only experience and if there is such thing as failure then there can be no experience, a paradox hey. Hi Petersone, you say lentz becomes stronger but does it, only a voltage differential allows current to flow, I've built an air-core motor shown in my thread that i've noticed becomes more efficient when making the rotor larger in diameter allowing by geometry a shorter pulse-on time for a given rpm. and when we add more coils and magnets and make the rotor even larger it becomes even more efficient and performance is even greater. I understand the concern with counter emf negating a portion of the inputted voltage and lentz in a generator which is the same thing, however what i think some are overlooking is that by adding more coils, magnets and larger rotor and with a shorter input pulse greater and greater efficiency with equal or greater output can be obtained and may apply to generators as well. Let me try and make this more simple to visualize, If we have a 1 pound coil at 1 ohm and apply 12 volts to attract or repel a magnet at a certain ideal efficient rpm the counter emf or lentz will negate around 80% or 9.6v of our input voltage with typical motors and applies to generators as well. Ok now compare this to a 10 pound coil at 1 ohm and apply 12 volts to attract or repel the same magnet at the same ideal rpm and we still have 80% negated for typical motors or generators, however now this coil will have a much larger magnetic field while the generated lentz voltage is still the same 9.6 volts and our usable wattage is still the same 2.4 volts X (for example) 2.4 amps = 6 watts and yet will give our shaft much more rotational torque even though the standard conversion efficiency has not changed but the produced or production efficiency or what they call C.O.P. has changed and at some point will exceed COP>1.0. We can liken this to a 12v, 7A.H. charging a 6V, 7A.H., now a 12V, 100A.H. battery is not going to put any more charge into the 6V, 7A.H. battery or in the motor or generator case lentz does not increase the way some may think. I think ohms law may be the stumbling or mind block here. Does this make sense folks, let me hear your thoughts.
Hi again, let me say after a little thought my thoughts may not apply to typical generators as much it would to magnet motors however its all related. One more thought, So we may agree that we only have in my motor example 2.4 volts left from the 12v input that is usable to convert into a current to create a magnetic field in our motor coil, so the point i am highlighting is this, then how can we have more rotational shaft power if the motor is still limited to what ohms law says it should be, the magnet passing the coil cant create more lentz current relative to the induced voltage no matter how much larger we make the coil. what i am saying is that even though some will say but now you have a greater magnetic field and greater lentz but we still have greater rotational shaft power at the same conversion eff. yet higher production eff. which i think is something that the formulas dont take into account.
Skywatcher
"and at some point will exceed COP>1.0" <- my thoughts (illusion?) too.
I am not trying to create larger coils, but rather create more individual coils which are isolated from each other onto a rotating rod which is powered by a fan motor.
There is ofcourse a limit to the lenght of the rod and thus a limited number of coils you can add, plus the drag will reach a saturation point where the motor no longer can turn the rotor.
Would be interesting to know the limits of such a setup (how many coils max) what output can be generated and then check how much input is required.
I think I´ll try just that after I have finished playing with the Mylow magnets (not arrived yet).
AZ