We've had a few postings about sliding neo magnets on various aluminum surfaces. I set up this topic to give that discussion a home. It really does need its own thread. Here are 3 youtube videos that are related to the subject
X00000013
May 19, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqL3Byy9mDA
k4zep
May 19, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bElldY0TKJI
foxxpup
May 19, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edl5PsSyjG0
The idea is that when small neo magnets are caused to slide downhill on aluminum surfaces, they sometimes tumble off if started with one pole up and slide along slowly braking when the other pole is up. X00000013 and foxxpup's videos demonstrate this effect k4zep's does not.
Please add your comments. :-)
I was able to verify X00000013's demonstration. Its a genuine phenomenon.
Personally, I think this phenomenon is a result of non-symetry in the magnetic properties of the neo magnets. If the magnetic lines in the magnet on one pole were more concentrated than that of the other, the concentrated end might not be able to produce eddy currents in the aluminum as well (or better). When the aluminum is at a shallow slope like what k4zep did, both ends would produce sliding and braking but as one progressively tries steeper slopes, one end will eventually demonstrate tumbling. At steeper slopes the other end probably will too. We need to do more tests.
CLaNZeR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzmPAetbB08
Lumen0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0YCTwWvykw
TinselKoala
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRtJsYVSswo
It's remarkable.
Now I have observed that it is actually the LOWER or leading edge that appears to lift off first and the magnet begins to tumble backwards at least when it first comes off.
The orientation that doesn't come off will lift off at the leading edge too but not as much so it's more stable.
I think this actually indicates that the pole that comes off, is stronger because it gives more levitation from the eddys.
We may be inventing the mag-lev train, or something like that.
@CLaNZeR:
ROTFL there at first when the one just wouldn't go...that was great, I feel a lot better now.
I think it's got to be the protective coating--or, is that perhaps genuine Al-clad, with that protection? The thin layer of pure Al over the alloyed sheet might make a diff.
Regardless, once you get the effect, please look on sideways, and see if you see what I see: the magnets lift off the plate from the lower, leading edge, first.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 09:10:14 PM
Regardless, once you get the effect, please look on sideways, and see if you see what I see: the magnets lift off the plate from the lower, leading edge, first.
And which end lifts off when the magnet is sliding
up the aluminum (or copper)? And does it do it with the same or opposite polarity?
:o
Quote from: 0c on May 20, 2009, 09:15:01 PM
And which end lifts off when the magnet is sliding up the aluminum (or copper)? And does it do it with the same or opposite polarity?
Don't know but I think that would be a rather interesting experiment. I think it will still be the leading edge but it will be the opposite polarity that jumps off first.
I really dunno, though. It's perplexicating.
ETA someone at lunch today did a BOE calculation and figured that with a little magnet like I used, that small area contains a lot of flux lines from the magnet but only about 4 lines from the Earth's field, so it's hard to see how the earth's field could be affecting this effect. But wouldn't it be interesting if the southerners got the opposite pole to jump off?
Sean, what's your latitude? If I may be so personal....
;)
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 09:10:14 PM
Regardless, once you get the effect, please look on sideways, and see if you see what I see: the magnets lift off the plate from the lower, leading edge, first.
;D
Kinda like the magnet is hanging ten, isn't it.
The creation of the eddies must be leading with one pole and lagging with the other (go ahead - light the torches and grab the pitch forks).
Now ask yourself does a Foucault current create another Foucault current around it and another around it? Each the reverse of the previous? Since each field is supposed to be the exact amount of force as the source -of the source - of the source - etc. ??
Since the diameter is constantly increasing then the amplitude for each new 'wave' is lower. Much like dropping a pea in a bowl of water.
After all the 'laws' say a current is created that creates a like field when there is relative movement - or does it not?
And what polarity is the magnet being opposed by since N/S are horizontal and the magnet is traveling in a direction 90 deg. to the polar axis?
Then think about a magnet sliding with poles the same axis as the slide path. The third vector direction is determined by the polarity of the leading pole. Now do you wonder why the curve of the path is reversed between S leading or N leading? Simple Right Hand Rule. Right?
This is all fun - being all 'new' and everything. At least watching folks claim each 'new' discovery is fun ::)
Y'all should be able to come up with some interesting 'scientific method' experiments for such things.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 09:04:01 PM
It's remarkable.
Now I have observed that it is actually the LOWER or leading edge that appears to lift off first and the magnet begins to tumble backwards at least when it first comes off.
The orientation that doesn't come off will lift off at the leading edge too but not as much so it's more stable.
I think this actually indicates that the pole that comes off, is stronger because it gives more levitation from the eddys.
We may be inventing the mag-lev train, or something like that.
With that being said maybe I was wrong in the other thread. Earlier I said the magnet fell because that pole was weaker, but since the mag starts to flip bottom to up I think it is because the one pole is to strong.
I believe that the eddy currents are the strongest at the bottom of the magnet(in the aluminum), so the repell would be strongest there to. The magnet gains speed and in turn creates eddy strong enough to push the bottom of the mag away which will make the magnetic flux weaker between the mag and aluminum. and by then it starts to tumble down.
EDIT: I still say that a magnet with more surface area and the same strength that you are using will react normally.
Quote from: BEP on May 20, 2009, 09:50:01 PM
;D
Kinda like the magnet is hanging ten, isn't it.
The creation of the eddies must be leading with one pole and lagging with the other (go ahead - light the torches and grab the pitch forks).
Now ask yourself does a Foucault current create another Foucault current around it and another around it? Each the reverse of the previous? Since each field is supposed to be the exact amount of force as the source -of the source - of the source - etc. ??
Since the diameter is constantly increasing then the amplitude for each new 'wave' is lower. Much like dropping a pea in a bowl of water.
After all the 'laws' say a current is created that creates a like field when there is relative movement - or does it not?
And what polarity is the magnet being opposed by since N/S are horizontal and the magnet is traveling in a direction 90 deg. to the polar axis?
Then think about a magnet sliding with poles the same axis as the slide path. The third vector direction is determined by the polarity of the leading pole. Now do you wonder why the curve of the path is reversed between S leading or N leading? Simple Right Hand Rule. Right?
This is all fun - being all 'new' and everything. At least watching folks claim each 'new' discovery is fun ::)
Y'all should be able to come up with some interesting 'scientific method' experiments for such things.
I can't say whether it's "new" or not, but I was rather amazed that none of the folks I showed it to had seen it before. JK especially. They all thought I was just showing eddy current braking (yawn, what's wrong with TK today, he seems off...) then when I flipped the magnet over it was like 4 bird dogs and a bucket of chicken. They really perked up and started paying attention.
Edit to add, and no matter how much I re read your nice little summary of eddy current effects and the rhrule, I don't see the explanation of why one pole lifts off so much more enthusiastically than the other.
Ahh questions. are these nickle coated magnets?? If so there will. also be induced currents in that part of the magnet also. Any one got some plastic coated non niclkle
plated ones??
Quote from: lostcauses10x on May 20, 2009, 10:24:57 PM
Ahh questions. are these nickle coated magnets?? If so there will. also be induced currents in that part of the magnet also. Any one got some plastic coated non niclkle
plated ones??
I tried it with my big rectangular ceramics. They do it too, but they are kind of hard to slide stably. But they do it.
And the leading edge thing--I only observed it with a very thin disk --think US Dime --on a big thick Al plate. I can't seem to get it to do it (lift up on the leading edge first) with any of these more cylindrical or square magnets.
I mean I get everything BEP says except that part about leading and lagging. I'da thot that at these velocities (that is, non-relativistic ones) the lag would not be noticeable and would have no macroscopic effect.
It almost makes me believe in different pole strengths.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 10:41:31 PM
I mean I get everything BEP says except that part about leading and lagging. I'da thot that at these velocities (that is, non-relativistic ones) the lag would not be noticeable and would have no macroscopic effect.
It almost makes me believe in different pole strengths.
It could be such as one of the poles out is going in on the edges. Makes for some reasonable explanation. That is if the in and out were real. Some thing like a cone effect on the intake and out go.
I will have to agree with the pole variation. Think electron spin and direction of spin in relation to domain and current.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 10:38:54 PM
I tried it with my big rectangular ceramics. They do it too, but they are kind of hard to slide stably. But they do it.
And the leading edge thing--I only observed it with a very thin disk --think US Dime --on a big thick Al plate. I can't seem to get it to do it (lift up on the leading edge first) with any of these more cylindrical or square magnets.
TK thanks for testing/answering. Glad to see lostcauses10x bring it up again.
That same question was asked right after lumen's post of the phenomenon.
_____
Quote from: lumen on May 17, 2009, 06:50:32 PM
@TK
I posted a short video showing the uneven magnetic drag effect with a few different magnets. I am sure it is there but don't really know why at this time.
It's almost like one field direction has almost a hooking effect on the aluminum where the other direction a light push.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0YCTwWvykw
Hi lumen,
Could you quickly try the same experiment with nonconductively coated magnets? Curious if there is a "skin effect" due to the typical electircally conductive Nickel coating over the Neos, and its interaction due to eddies etc.
Nice interesting observation, thanks for posting.
Mike
____
Now regarding the repulsion effect, at sufficient relative speed, it does seem to work.
This maybe of interest as a demonstration of the repulsion effect, at speeds of up to 24 mph maybe even less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCNP6qH_Dc
TK, as the mags accelerate towards the lower end of the Al or Copper surface, is there an estimate on how fast they are traveling at the time they start moving away/flipping??
Thanks
Mike
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 10:41:31 PM
It almost makes me believe in different pole strengths.
C'mon now. That wouldn't be symmetrical, would it?
@ all, i confirm TKs claim that the neo "flips backwards" while falling, very odd. It also interests me if this happens on the bottom half of the planet, like flushing the toilet?, water spins opposit in N. vs S. hemispere, neat stuff. We nead south of the border neo input!!
You are speaking of the Coriolis force (http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.asp) which is a myth, but an understandably created myth, I believed it most of my life.
Quote from: X00013 on May 21, 2009, 12:45:31 AM
@ all, i confirm TKs claim that the neo "flips backwards" while falling, very odd. It also interests me if this happens on the bottom half of the planet, like flushing the toilet?, water spins opposit in N. vs S. hemispere, neat stuff. We nead south of the border neo input!!
In this case, I think the purpose of the experiment would be to see whether the earth's magnetic poles influence the magnet's behavior. If he N pole flips in the northern hemisphere, does the S pole do it in the southern hemisphere?
My personal opinion without having tested the theory, no, because the field created by these magnets under test swamps that of the earths magnetic fields, and of course the weight of said magnets would be much greater than the influence of the earths magnetic field.
Quote from: 0c on May 21, 2009, 01:13:00 AM
In this case, I think the purpose of the experiment would be to see whether the earth's magnetic poles influence the magnet's behavior. If he N pole flips in the northern hemisphere, does the S pole do it in the southern hemisphere?
@Lumen0
The last magnet you used turning toward the south side is very interesting.
It clearly shows the phenomenon at work.
Every time I look at it, it reminds me of particles in a cloud chamber.
The way some particles turn towards one magnets pole and away from the other.
This is how they distinguish protons from electrons.
@Lumen0
Just make sure it still does the same thing when the aluminum plate is facing
180 deg. from it's present position.
Just to make sure the earths north pole isn't pulling the magnet that way.
You didn't tell us which way was north on your video.
Personally I don't believe it will matter which way the plate faces, but some
others here may have that thought, and this is the way to rule it out.
Maybe this effect has something to do with showing flux direction flow. I cant think of a better guess.
There may be a difference in how the pole fields bend/flex while being dragged through the aluminum, due to flux direction flow.
If it is so, this would put a better perspective on how we look at fields and maybe see a way to take some advantage of this feature.
Magluvin
I believe this phenomenon can be used to get past the sticky spot in a magnetic motor.
The same repelling force that causes the magnet to flip would neutralize the
last magnets pull.
And this force appears to be stronger, the faster the magnet moves.
So the faster a magnetic motor spins the better it will work.
We just need to find a configuration that utilizes it properly.
I also wonder if the metal used makes a difference in which pole down flips.
Does it have something to do with electrode potential?
Aluminum is -1.66 Copper is +0.159 Lead is +1.69 Silver is +1.98
The best test would be between Aluminum and Silver,
but Aluminum vs Copper would work too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_standard_electrode_potentials
If I may point you to OC's idea that led to the whipmag, this is also a theory based on flipping the magnets at the correct moment to overcome the sticky spot, we got some odd results from replication but no free runner, the interesting part was certainly the stator and rotor magnets spinning in opposite directions.
Quote from: AbbaRue on May 21, 2009, 01:38:47 AM
I believe this phenomenon can be used to get past the sticky spot in a magnetic motor.
The same repelling force that causes the magnet to flip would neutralize the
last magnets pull.
And this force appears to be stronger, the faster the magnet moves.
So the faster a magnetic motor spins the better it will work.
We just need to find a configuration that utilizes it properly.
Ok think about it.
Set the magnet to slide down. If flux is flowing into the Al. from the pole facing it, then dragged through the Al. due to the magnet in motion,being bent upward/dragged/held back from where it came, the exit point of the aluminum would be higher in the aluminum, above the magnet, thus a change in the path of flux from the norm.
But, if flowing out from the outer pole of the magnet, the one thats not facing the Al., then the flux direction is not influenced by the Al. drag before entering the Al. So the point of entering and exiting will be in different from each other.
Dudes, this is a full possibility.
Magluvin Sumthins Cookin
Oc TK did you like my last post? I know you will get what I said.
Magluvin
wow. our resident 'experts' are rehashing old news...
posted sept. 04, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iABmUEH5s0k
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
wow. our resident 'experts' are rehashing old news...
posted sept. 04, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iABmUEH5s0k
The braking effect of a magnet against aluminum isn't the point here.
Yes that is old news.
The point here is this new phenomenon of the magnet flipping when the
opposite pole moves against the aluminum.
We haven't seen this phenomenon mentioned by anyone before.
If you have please give us the link.
Quote from: AbbaRue on May 21, 2009, 02:38:12 AM
The braking effect of a magnet against aluminum isn't the point here.
Yes that is old news.
The point here is this new phenomenon of the magnet flipping when the
opposite pole moves against the aluminum.
obviously... ::)
the point is,
if you 'play' with magnets,
even a little, you stumble upon this (not new) phenom...
if you didn't, well, you're not very creative, imaginative or deductive.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 20, 2009, 10:10:25 PM
then when I flipped the magnet over it was like 4 bird dogs and a bucket of chicken.
Yea, I had several so-called 'educated' folks declare I was using fishing line during my demonstration. Oops, I think that was before mono filament line ( just kidding ;)
It was when I was just a kid, in my thirties.
Quote
Edit to add, and no matter how much I re read your nice little summary of eddy current effects and the rhrule, I don't see the explanation of why one pole lifts off so much more enthusiastically than the other.
Really? I thought I did offer 'my' explanation. The lead is about 30 deg. and the lag around 90, if I remember correctly. I liken it to the center of gravity shifting position on an unbalanced wheel as RPM changes. In effect, the moving magnet is trying to align itself with the field it is creating. This happens with either polarity but one polarity presses the leading edge against the track surface, slowing the decent, lessening the whole effect. The other polarity causes the leading edge to lift allowing for a speed increase which aids the effect.
Ever wonder why the one pole down makes it look like the magnet is almost glued to the metal while moving? I don't think it is because of the 'like' pole being created under it or because of the 'like' pole being created before it.
Quote from: BEP on May 21, 2009, 05:59:43 AM
Yea, I had several so-called 'educated' folks declare I was using fishing line during my demonstration. Oops, I think that was before mono filament line ( just kidding ;)
It was when I was just a kid, in my thirties.
Are you aware of any books, papers, or websites that discuss this behavior?
Quote from: BEP
Really? I thought I did offer 'my' explanation. The lead is about 30 deg. and the lag around 90, if I remember correctly. I liken it to the center of gravity shifting position on an unbalanced wheel as RPM changes. In effect, the moving magnet is trying to align itself with the field it is creating. This happens with either polarity but one polarity presses the leading edge against the track surface, slowing the decent, lessening the whole effect. The other polarity causes the leading edge to lift allowing for a speed increase which aids the effect.
At the moment, I think this is the most rational explanation we have. But I still have some questions:
1) As TK mentioned, these speeds are far from relativistic. Why would the oppositional field created by the eddy current lead or lag the magnet?
2) Why would polarity make a difference (unless there is some external influence)?
Still wondering what TK's upsliding experiment will show us.
Just a thought: Has anyone tried this again with the plate turned 90 degrees to the original orientation; which could indicate if the "crystalline-like" structure of the alum plate's "grain" had any influence on the drag effect?
Quote from: RunningBare on May 21, 2009, 02:05:30 AM
If I may point you to OC's idea that led to the whipmag, this is also a theory based on flipping the magnets at the correct moment to overcome the sticky spot, we got some odd results from replication but no free runner, the interesting part was certainly the stator and rotor magnets spinning in opposite directions.
(even more interesting was stator and rotor spinning the
same direction)
Yeah, I been thinkin about this. I wonder if this type of effect could be used to "flip" a magnet over into an alternate orientation?
Quote from: Magluvin on May 21, 2009, 02:07:26 AM
Set the magnet to slide down. If flux is flowing into the Al. from the pole facing it, then dragged through the Al. due to the magnet in motion,being bent upward/dragged/held back from where it came, the exit point of the aluminum would be higher in the aluminum, above the magnet, thus a change in the path of flux from the norm.
But, if flowing out from the outer pole of the magnet, the one thats not facing the Al., then the flux direction is not influenced by the Al. drag before entering the Al. So the point of entering and exiting will be in different from each other.
Are you trying to say that Lenz law is viscous? That there's a delay? Or that the oppositional field is actually created
before the magnet arrives?
Hi all,
I've done another experiment involving the same high strength cylindrical magnet on aluminum. Its crude but I think demonstrates my point about the behavior of these magnets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYcAt--xJcw&feature=channel_page
I really do think this is the result of nonsymetry in the way the magnets are magnetized and nothing fancier than that.
(my own humble opinion)
What's weird is that weeks ago this magnet just showed up in my possession, stuck to the front of my filing cabinet.
Enjoy!
hmm this actually could be dependent on the direction of the magnet poles.
Think of the direction of induced current, and the current dispersal. If such is directed at the surface of the plate, the pattern of current flow will change at the surface.
Think of skin effect of current flow in a wire.
One direction of polarity it goes at the surface, the other direction it goes from the surface.
Here is my explanation as to why the magnet slides slower on one pole then the other based on Lumens video. (Allready posted here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0YCTwWvykw
I am sure it has to do with the way the magnetic fields exit the magnet and re-enters the magnet. It is not magnetic attraction but simply the direction in which the magnetic field tear through the mass of the AL as it falls.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7039.msg179592#msg179592
Hey all,
I've been following this "from the shadows" since the X0 post in the Mylow HJ replication thread as I've always been fascinated by this behavior (mag in a copper tube) since I first saw it when Dennis Lee (?) showed it in one of his Tube vids (not the best source, I know. But it is demonstrated plenty of other times by others w/ less of an agenda).
The question I have (and will test shortly using an aluminum level. Thanks foxx!) is what happens when you roll a longer axially magnetized cylinder mag down the slope.
If there is a difference in field strength of the polarities and the eddy currents produced by them, wouldn't the rolling cylinder mag consistently roll towards one side of the aluminum slope? If you rotate the mag 180 degrees will it then consistently roll off the opposite edge?
I think I saw TK say something about using "more" cylindrical mags (longer?), but I ASSUME that it is 1 polarity down, and 1 polarity up as that's what shows this effect so well.
I was just wondering if TK had rolled any of those cylinders laying down with both polarities in contact with the aluminum stock?
I found the 4' al level and tried rolling a 1/4" W X 1/2" L N42 neo that had 1 end "sharpied" black to differentiate the 2.
It's not a good test IMHO because of the variance in thickness of the al (very thin on the sides, very thick in the middle), but it did show some interesting effects when rolling the neo down the length.
I need better control materials for the al slope (i.e. consistent thickness of al, true measurement of slope angle, etc.) to really have any data that matters, but I did notice some peculiar behavior as it was rolling down.
No matter how carefully I placed it, it would not roll longer than 1' without rolling off the level. Sometimes when rolling a polarity would seem to hit the thick middle of the levels I-beam like structure and the mag would swing vertical to the floor and then off the level.
As I said, nothing conclusive to my tests and they were hardly done in a controlled method, but it's acting wacky enough for me to start looking around for al bar stock.
@ TK, lumen, X0, etc.
If this experiment is something you haven't tried yet (unless you know of the reason for this effect and choose not to [re]validate it) , please give it a whirl.
I just think that if one polarity is stronger, the mag should roll off the bar to one side consistently. This has NOT been my experience with it yet, but my al stock is hardly of uniform thickness.
Another "wild hair" (or is it hare?) thought:
If there would be, for lack of a better term, magnetic "turbulence" from having both polarities in contact with the same al stock, could someone use a long cylinder mag and roll it down 2 al lengths sitting side by side with side rails on the outer edges to see if the cylinder has one side that falls through the center gap between the 2 "rails" every time?
I'll try to locate some al that fits the criteria above to set up a test.
Just some thoughts gents.
;)
@all
I tried a good sized neo disc sliding down aluminium ladder surface inclined just off vertical.
Video, about 2 mins long:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A458J8dttu4
Definitely noticed that north side facing alu will always hug the surface. But when south side faces alu it drops away from the surface, it seems to drop away when the magnet reaches it´s terminal velocity which is quite slow due to the lenz braking.
I think there must be a repulsive force that fights gravity and lifts the mag away from the alu surface because the surface was not vertical and gravity wants to keep in on the surface.
If this effect could be seperated somehow from the lenz braking then perhaps it could be used for some gain?
I would like to see this experiment done in the southern hemisphere, so any Aussies or Kiwis etc. try it and tell.
NOTE:
I made sure to lift a non sticky plastic stick off the front magnet face to release it, using fingers or supporting underneath the bottom edge can cause the magnet to be influenced by mr hand. But trapping the magnet against the alu by using a stick and then pulling the stick away will not influence its horizontal position as much.
EDIT:
My young daughter, asked "why" it does this? After the vid I tried to explain but couldn´t stop her calling "why", I think my last answer was "because one sides different"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bas00qdj6Xc
Nice demonstration, also shows the magnets dragging edge keeping it stable.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 06:31:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bas00qdj6Xc
TK nice vidio.
Quote from: exxcomm0n on May 21, 2009, 01:28:00 PM
Hey all,
I've been following this "from the shadows" since the X0 post in the Mylow HJ replication thread as I've always been fascinated by this behavior (mag in a copper tube) since I first saw it when Dennis Lee (?) showed it in one of his Tube vids (not the best source, I know. But it is demonstrated plenty of other times by others w/ less of an agenda).
The question I have (and will test shortly using an aluminum level. Thanks foxx!) is what happens when you roll a longer axially magnetized cylinder mag down the slope.
If there is a difference in field strength of the polarities and the eddy currents produced by them, wouldn't the rolling cylinder mag consistently roll towards one side of the aluminum slope? If you rotate the mag 180 degrees will it then consistently roll off the opposite edge?
I think I saw TK say something about using "more" cylindrical mags (longer?), but I ASSUME that it is 1 polarity down, and 1 polarity up as that's what shows this effect so well.
I was just wondering if TK had rolled any of those cylinders laying down with both polarities in contact with the aluminum stock?
I found the 4' al level and tried rolling a 1/4" W X 1/2" L N42 neo that had 1 end "sharpied" black to differentiate the 2.
It's not a good test IMHO because of the variance in thickness of the al (very thin on the sides, very thick in the middle), but it did show some interesting effects when rolling the neo down the length.
I need better control materials for the al slope (i.e. consistent thickness of al, true measurement of slope angle, etc.) to really have any data that matters, but I did notice some peculiar behavior as it was rolling down.
No matter how carefully I placed it, it would not roll longer than 1' without rolling off the level. Sometimes when rolling a polarity would seem to hit the thick middle of the levels I-beam like structure and the mag would swing vertical to the floor and then off the level.
As I said, nothing conclusive to my tests and they were hardly done in a controlled method, but it's acting wacky enough for me to start looking around for al bar stock.
@ TK, lumen, X0, etc.
If this experiment is something you haven't tried yet (unless you know of the reason for this effect and choose not to [re]validate it) , please give it a whirl.
I just think that if one polarity is stronger, the mag should roll off the bar to one side consistently. This has NOT been my experience with it yet, but my al stock is hardly of uniform thickness.
Another "wild hair" (or is it hare?) thought:
If there would be, for lack of a better term, magnetic "turbulence" from having both polarities in contact with the same al stock, could someone use a long cylinder mag and roll it down 2 al lengths sitting side by side with side rails on the outer edges to see if the cylinder has one side that falls through the center gap between the 2 "rails" every time?
I'll try to locate some al that fits the criteria above to set up a test.
Just some thoughts gents.
;)
It was one of the first things I tried, actually. There are too many variables, or were when I tried it, for me to say one way or the other. I too thot that the cylinder would curve if the pole strengths or even the field geometry was different. But the silly cylinders try to go either way, and I think I need more expensive apparatus to do it properly. Like a brick to prop the slide on. But the rolling cylinders definitely do slow down compared to a non-magnet of same mass and geometry.
@TK,
nice vid, you mentioned above that earth flux is pretty negligible compared to the mag flux. Do you think this ratio of flux strengths is in the same ballpark to the ratio of observed forces (braking force/seperation force)?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
wow. our resident 'experts' are rehashing old news...
posted sept. 04, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iABmUEH5s0k
Errm... The quoted vid does not demonstrate the asymetric behaviour being discussed?
edit: woops, AbbaRue already said this.
Quote from: Magluvin on May 21, 2009, 08:07:26 AM
Set the magnet to slide down. If flux is flowing into the Al. from the pole facing it, then dragged through the Al. due to the magnet in motion,being bent upward/dragged/held back from where it came, the exit point of the aluminum would be higher in the aluminum, above the magnet, thus a change in the path of flux from the norm.
But, if flowing out from the outer pole of the magnet, the one thats not facing the Al., then the flux direction is not influenced by the Al. drag before entering the Al. So the point of entering and exiting will be in different from each other.
Oc said...
Are you trying to say that Lenz law is viscous? That there's a delay? Or that the oppositional field is actually created before the magnet arrives?
What Im trying to convey is, IF flux is comprised of flowing particles, then there must be direction.
We say the word, field, without going further than that. If flux has particle flow, the force that attracts and repels THE particles themselves, MAY not follow Lenz laws, except relative to where the particle is at the time.
So if particle flow exists, then the particle is going to be traveling, into the moving aluminum, out of the moving aluminum, yet the force that caries it is constant, and the particle cannot be in the aluminum and in the free air at the same time.
Lets say we get rid of the particle, can we say it wouldnt make a difference either way?
What else could it be?
Magluvin
Quote from: Yucca on May 21, 2009, 08:17:32 PM
@TK,
nice vid, you mentioned above that earth flux is pretty negligible compared to the mag flux. Do you think this ratio of flux strengths is in the same ballpark to the ratio of observed forces (braking force/seperation force)?
I have no idea. I would guess not, since the BH product of these magnets is pretty darn high and that means a heck of a lot of standard flux lines in there, and only 4 from the earth, it's probably 5 or six orders of magnitude difference, we're talking parts per million here I think. And the repulsion to braking force ratio is much much higher than that I think and can be strong enough to levitate the magnet completely. The eddy drag and levitating forces should be orthogonal, I think...
Quote
Errm... The quoted vid does not demonstrate the asymetric behaviour being discussed?
Not only that but he describes it incorrectly. Electromagnetic drag? Well, I suppose. That's like calling Chartres Cathedral a building. It's correct, as far as it goes, I suppose...
Maybe these are really Léon currents instead of Eddy currents.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 08:34:24 PM
I have no idea. I would guess not, since the BH product of these magnets is pretty darn high and that means a heck of a lot of standard flux lines in there, and only 4 from the earth, it's probably 5 or six orders of magnitude difference, we're talking parts per million here I think. And the repulsion to braking force ratio is much much higher than that I think and can be strong enough to levitate the magnet completely. The eddy drag and levitating forces should be orthogonal, I think.
Thanks for the info.
One more quick question:
Do you think there´s a chance the seperation force could somehow be seperated from the lenz braking force, say with lamination techniques etc? I suppose a better way of asking is: do you think the (braking/seperation) ratio could be varied with the aim of minimising braking and possibly making the seperation force the strongest?
Quote from: Yucca on May 21, 2009, 08:17:32 PM
Errm... The quoted vid does not demonstrate the asymetric behaviour being discussed?
edit: woops, AbbaRue already said this.
yeah, errm... you must have missed my response to abbarue also then. ::)
my bad though i did say experts, which infers all of you and my sarcasm was actually directed at just one person.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 08:55:29 PM
yeah, errm... you must have missed my response to abbarue also then. ::)
my bad though i did say experts, which infers all of you and my sarcasm was actually directed at just one person.
Lol, no worries.
note to self:
stop posting without reading to the end of the thread.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 02:41:03 AM
obviously... ::)
the point is, if you 'play' with magnets, even a little, you stumble upon this (not new) phenom...
if you didn't, well, you're not very creative, imaginative or deductive.
Hmmm--an incorrect assumption, and we all know what happens when you "assume" something. I have shown this phenomenon to several people who have demonstrated their creativity, imagination and logical ability over and over again, and they are amazed by it. So at least some creative imaginatory clear thinkers, who have played with magnets a lot haven't noticed it before.
Therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
If it's such an ordinary thing, why is it capturing the imagination of those who have them?
And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.
Quote from: Yucca on May 21, 2009, 08:50:25 PM
Thanks for the info.
One more quick question:
Do you think there´s a chance the seperation force could somehow be seperated from the lenz braking force, say with lamination techniques etc? I suppose a better way of asking is: do you think the (braking/seperation) ratio could be varied with the aim of minimising braking and possibly making the seperation force the strongest?
Well, as I see it the repulsion is a consequence of the whole Lenz/eddy thing. I mean, moving magnet induces circular currents in the conductor, orthogonal to the motion of the magnet. The current curls orthogonally to the field of the magnet. Barring relativistic effects, the motion of the magnet should not lead or lag the current circles--disk really, I suppose. The circulating current is accompanied by its own orthogonal magnetic field which is in opposition to the field of the magnet. It is the resistance to the current in the current disk in the slide material that produces the drag force, and it is the repulsion of that current's mag field to the magnet's field that lifts the magnet (or conversely the conductor).
All that seems well understood, I think. And it would seem that the only way to separate the forces of drag and lift would be, well, to get rid of the electrical resistance in the disk. I wonder how we could do that...No, wait, I know...
But what I do not know is why the effect we are talking about in this thread is asymmetric WRT polarity of the magnet. Is that in Wilby's or Abba's posts? Because if it is, I don't see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRby1Wilv-Q
Is there anybody out there with some simulation software that might show this effect?
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 09:42:59 PM
It is the resistance to the current in the current disk in the slide material that produces the drag force,
Actually, I think the drag
increases with
less resistance. The more electrically conductive the material, the greater the current flow, the greater the effect.
Quote from: 0c on May 21, 2009, 10:07:41 PM
Actually, I think the drag increases with less resistance. The more electrically conductive the material, the greater the current flow, the greater the effect.
I don't believe I said anything about the nature of the relationship. The drag is caused by and related to the resistance; it represents the energy lost in Joule heating of the slide. But sure, the more current flow, the more Joule heating--even in the same resistance. Move faster, you get more voltage. Same resistance, the slide's the same material still. So you get more current, hence more drag. The drag force goes up with relative velocity even when the resistance remains the same. But in thicker material there is more conductor cutting flux; less bulk resistance overall, but way more current--hence more drag. The relationship isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
But it really isn't current flowing around in a ring like a circle around the location of the magnet, though, I don't think. Isn't it more like a disk, centered on the magnet's position, of tiny tight vortices, where the conduction electrons are whirling around the field force lines? So why don't their accompanying fields just cancel the original field by pushing it out, thus killing the whole effect, thus allowing the effect to begin, thus...
Uh, oh. Better go freshen the beverage.
But anyway I don't think the bulk resistance is effective against eddys in the same way that resistance to a current in a wire is, for example.
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/foucaultdisk/index.html
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 09:30:13 PM
Hmmm--an incorrect assumption, and we all know what happens when you "assume" something. I have shown this phenomenon to several people who have demonstrated their creativity, imagination and logical ability over and over again, and they are amazed by it. So at least some creative imaginatory clear thinkers, who have played with magnets a lot haven't noticed it before.
Therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
If it's such an ordinary thing, why is it capturing the imagination of those who have them?
And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.
your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.
why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...
oh there's no video. :'( damn, well i guess no one has done it then... ::)
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.
@tk what's with the rotation video? that's more old news you know...
but go on with your bad self. from your vid clip: "should i repeat it?" yeah yeah, you better. this is big news!!
oh goody, look there's a video from 2006... well that's that then, someone HAS done this before, there is video proof even. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWTSzBWEsms&feature=related
the rotation is obvious. no audio, sorry. the prof. demonstrating it isn't quite as interested in hearing himself talk as you are tk. he keeps messing with the magnet, but the rotation is there none the less.
so again, if you can't put two and two together and deduce what comes next or even be bothered to observe the experiment when shown to you in college, you aren't as creative, imaginative, deductive or logical as you think you are.
p.s. still waiting for your debunking of stiffler. you got 50 years of experience and scorched fingertips to boot according to your own claims, should be a walk in the park for you to show how stiffler is conning us all. it sure wouldn't cost you $900 and 80 hours of your time like this magnet stuff. oh yeah that's right your concentrating on the, how did you say it to me? "concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers)"
that's funny, that you like playing with these "obvious losers", so nice of you to say that about them too.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 11:19:19 PM
@tk what's with the rotation video? that's more old news you know...
but go on with your bad self. from your vid clip: "should i repeat it?" yeah yeah, you better. this is big news!!
oh goody, look theres a video from 2006... well that's that then, someone HAS done this before, there is video proof even. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWTSzBWEsms&feature=related
the rotation is obvious. no audio, sorry. the prof. demonstrating it isn't quite as interested in hearing himself talk as you are tk. he keeps messing with the magnet, but the rotation is there none the less.
so again, if you can't put two and two together and deduce what comes next or even be bothered to observe the experiment when shown to you in college, you aren't as creative, imaginative, deductive or logical as you think you are.
p.s. still waiting for your debunking of stiffler. you got 50 years of experience and scorched fingertips to boot according to your own claims, should be a walk in the park for you to show how stiffler is conning us all. it sure wouldn't cost you $900 and 80 hours of your time like this magnet stuff. oh yeah that's right your concentrating on the, how did you say it to me? "concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers)"
Yep, that's what I said all right.
And anybody can show you Meissner effect levitation and show the magnet rotating. Not too many have seen it spontaneously START rotating like in my video. I did not discover the effect; you will see that I cited references to peer-reviewed articles, when you learn to read. You r video is CLEARLY not demonstrating the effect I am showing and the maker of the video CLEARLY doesn't even know about it.
Stiffler is afraid of me, he would ban me instantly and you know it. Besides, I'm not interested. Now go away, this place was a lot more pleasant while you were gone.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 11:16:57 PM
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.
your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.
why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...
oh there's no video. :'( damn, well i guess no one has done it then... ::)
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.
Didn't we have this flame war before? But you went away. Were you temporarily banned, or something? Because you cannot seem to discuss the issues, you just want to flame and hijack theads. Do you have something to contribute besides a bad odor?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 11:16:57 PM
as i said, anyone, IF they have played around with magnets, even a little, will stumble on this (not new) phenom.
your allegedly "creative, imaginative and logical" friends that didn't put two and two together and do a little more than the 'eddy brake' experiment (ie: lets see what happens when we try this, or this, or that) aren't very creative, imaginative or logical after all...
if they were they would have stumbled on this long ago.
therefore, as so often seems to happen, you are wrong, again.
Q.E.D.
why is it capturing the attention ( not imagination ) of these friends of yours that aren't as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are? that's pretty easy, because they are not as creative, imaginative or logical as you/they think they are. we already covered this...
oh there's no video. :'( damn, well i guess no one has done it then... ::)
is that irony or sarcasm that the queen of faked videos is asking for a video? you're joking. surely.
And I said,
And if you've known about it all along, surely you've documented your prior knowledge with a video, a post on a forum somewhere, even a lab notebook page. Somewhere. Surely.
And you said jack.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 11:45:52 PM
Yep, that's what I said all right.
And anybody can show you Meissner effect levitation and show the magnet rotating. Not too many have seen it spontaneously START rotating like in my video. I did not discover the effect; you will see that I cited references to peer-reviewed articles, when you learn to read. You r video is CLEARLY not demonstrating the effect I am showing and the maker of the video CLEARLY doesn't even know about it.
Stiffler is afraid of me, he would ban me instantly and you know it. Besides, I'm not interested. Now go away, this place was a lot more pleasant while you were gone.
it clearly spins. once he spins it with mr. hand. but the rest of the time you can see it spinning, the magnet has a chip in it. get your eyes checked old man, or get a new monitor.
did i say you discovered the effect? are you just making assumptions again?
more like you're afraid of stiffler. stiffler can't ban you from making a youtube video 'proving' how he is conning everyone, and you know it... ::)
i'm not going anywhere. this isn't your mommies house, you don't get things your way because someone is putting you to task.
Stefan, can you get this monkey off my back, please?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 11:51:09 PM
it clearly spins. once he spins it with mr. hand. but the rest of the time you can see it spinning, the magnet has a chip in it. get your eyes checked old man, or get a new monitor.
stiffler can't ban you from making a youtube video 'proving' how he is conning everyone, and you know it... ::)
i'm not going anywhere. this isn't your mommies house, you don't get things your way because someone is putting you to task.
The spinning is no big deal, it's the spontaneous starting to spin, for the very last time, will you please learn to READ.
i guess i'm not 'contributing' in your definition of the word, which seems to be to rehash old news...
i didn't say jack. now you're just making shit up.
yes, i have it somewhere. lab notes.
the video was done by "Professor Tom H. Johansen in the Superconductor Laboratory at the University of Oslo". why don't you write him and ask if him if he knows before you start making assumptions as usual. if YOU KNEW HOW TO READ i wouldn't have to be telling you that it was done by a professor...
LOL
now you're crying to stephan? this is better than mylow...
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 11:52:54 PM
The spinning is no big deal, it's the spontaneous starting to spin, for the very last time, will you please learn to READ.
it spins spontaneously... for the very last time, watch the video old man or get some new googles...
Quote from: 0c on May 21, 2009, 10:05:23 AM
Are you aware of any books, papers, or websites that discuss this behavior?
Nothing on the web. I've only been using the web for such activities for about three years (still don't trust most web sources). It could be there buried in a thesis somewhere. I don't know.
Books? Yes. The first time I saw related issues was in a late 40's CQ or QST relating to antenna design difficulties when using Al instead of Cu. I remember reading about a maglev train that hit the rollers above a certain speed and all the brains freaked out with no answer. Don't remember the article but it was in "2000" (?) A former science magazine for the masses. The main thing I remember was my feeling - Yea DUH! what did you idiots think would happen?
My first experiments were with transformers. I was trying to see why the primary and secondary were out of phase by a 'none book' amount. Make an Al core then things really go wacky!
Quote
At the moment, I think this is the most rational explanation we have.
Not something said about a comment from me before. Make sure you are ready to withdraw that comment should the torches head your way :)
Quote
But I still have some questions:
1) As TK mentioned, these speeds are far from relativistic. Why would the oppositional field created by the eddy current lead or lag the magnet?
2) Why would polarity make a difference (unless there is some external influence)?
Still wondering what TK's upsliding experiment will show us.
I have answers for you but I'll basque in your earlier comment about my statement for a while first....
Nah! that'll really throw the thread of course.
Due to the shit storm it's hard to get some constructive things out of this thread.
Has it been established that the flip is caused by some repulsion of the aluminum? This could lead to some interesting technical discoveries.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 21, 2009, 11:19:19 PM
@tk what's with the rotation video? that's more old news you know...
but go on with your bad self. from your vid clip: "should i repeat it?" yeah yeah, you better. this is big news!!
oh goody, look there's a video from 2006... well that's that then, someone HAS done this before, there is video proof even. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWTSzBWEsms&feature=related
the rotation is obvious. no audio, sorry. the prof. demonstrating it isn't quite as interested in hearing himself talk as you are tk. he keeps messing with the magnet, but the rotation is there none the less.
so again, if you can't put two and two together and deduce what comes next or even be bothered to observe the experiment when shown to you in college, you aren't as creative, imaginative, deductive or logical as you think you are.
p.s. still waiting for your debunking of stiffler. you got 50 years of experience and scorched fingertips to boot according to your own claims, should be a walk in the park for you to show how stiffler is conning us all. it sure wouldn't cost you $900 and 80 hours of your time like this magnet stuff. oh yeah that's right your concentrating on the, how did you say it to me? "concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers)"
that's funny, that you like playing with these "obvious losers", so nice of you to say that about them too.
@ WilbyInebriated
I feel it is obvious that you have not had a real or a original thought ever in your life, because if you had you would know that cooling a material with liquid nitrogen would most likely make it a super conductor, which I would hope that most people on this thread would know that the reaction of a magnet to a super conductor, and the reaction of a moving magnet and aluminum or copper or brass ect.... is completely different. Or just maybe you have been stuck in your mom's basement for to long. ;)
Quote from: broli on May 22, 2009, 04:21:23 AM
Due to the shit storm it's hard to get some constructive things out of this thread.
Has it been established that the flip is caused by some repulsion of the aluminum? This could lead to some interesting technical discoveries.
Broli, in my tests I have tested 6061 aluminum, 7075 aluminum, copper busbar alloy, deoxygenated copper (vacuum copper), naval brass, leaded brass, copper busbar w/ thin silver electroplating, and al-clad.
The nature of the effect is the same in all cases, but the magnitude and the critical angles, as it were, are different, using the same magnets. Different magnets...I dunno. There are alot of variables.
One thing that I haven't tested is copperclad g10 circuit board material. That's today.
One thing that does seem to make a little difference is the cladding or plating.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 22, 2009, 09:18:48 AM
Broli, in my tests I have tested 6061 aluminum, 7075 aluminum, copper busbar alloy, deoxygenated copper (vacuum copper), naval brass, leaded brass, copper busbar w/ thin silver electroplating, and al-clad.
The nature of the effect is the same in all cases, but the magnitude and the critical angles, as it were, are different, using the same magnets. Different magnets...I dunno. There are alot of variables.
One thing that I haven't tested is copperclad g10 circuit board material. That's today.
One thing that does seem to make a little difference is the cladding or plating.
Did you also test on thicknes? Maybe using some thin smooth aluminum cooking foil on some plywood.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 21, 2009, 09:42:59 PM
Well, as I see it the repulsion is a consequence of the whole Lenz/eddy thing. I mean, moving magnet induces circular currents in the conductor, orthogonal to the motion of the magnet. The current curls orthogonally to the field of the magnet. Barring relativistic effects, the motion of the magnet should not lead or lag the current circles--disk really, I suppose. The circulating current is accompanied by its own orthogonal magnetic field which is in opposition to the field of the magnet. It is the resistance to the current in the current disk in the slide material that produces the drag force, and it is the repulsion of that current's mag field to the magnet's field that lifts the magnet (or conversely the conductor).
All that seems well understood, I think. And it would seem that the only way to separate the forces of drag and lift would be, well, to get rid of the electrical resistance in the disk. I wonder how we could do that...No, wait, I know...
But what I do not know is why the effect we are talking about in this thread is asymmetric WRT polarity of the magnet. Is that in Wilby's or Abba's posts? Because if it is, I don't see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRby1Wilv-Q
Hmm, superconductors, roll on room temp!
I'm not sure about the asymmetry. But some chap (I forget his name, he knew HJ) a while back made a 3d map by scanning a hall probe around a cylinder mag and graphing single flux level contour lines on a PC using 3d graphics, the resulting function looked like a tornado turning back on itself, it looked like the number of overall flux lines of each pole was equal, but the spread and shape of lines emanating from each pole was quite different. Maybe this is part of the puzzle?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 22, 2009, 04:13:08 PM
nice of you to go off all half cocked though... i won't expect a public mea culpa, i doubt you have the balls to man up and do so.
You know what, you are right I did not look at his vid, and so for that I am sorry.
But that still does not change that fact that you are a cock munch! Yep I said it, you munch on cock.
Lose the god complex and grow the fuck up. How old are you?
Any thoughts on this earlier post/video?
"Now regarding the repulsion effect, at sufficient relative speed, it does seem to work.
This maybe of interest as a demonstration of the repulsion effect, at speeds of up to 24 mph maybe even less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCNP6qH_Dc
TK, as the mags accelerate towards the lower end of the Al or Copper surface, is there an estimate on how fast they are traveling at the time they start moving away/flipping??
Thanks
Mike"
Also in that video, the orientation of the cylindrical mag is indicating a N-S direction parallel to the copper cylinder axis of rotation.
Interesting stuff.
Hmm some stick talk (turf talk) seems to have derailed a observation and provided visual proof of such, therefore damaging the discussion of such.
Oh well if I get time I will have to do a post later on this. It is fun at least.
Just a weird thought:
Attach an aluminum disc to the bottom of the magnet and slide it down the aluminum ramp.
The aluminum disc will remain static WRT the magnet. The magnet will induce Foucault (eddy) currents and an oppositional magnetic field in the ramp. The moving oppositional field in the ramp will induce secondary eddies and more oppositional magnetic forces into the aluminum disc.
... or maybe not.
Keep in mind you have to consider the area/volume of the metals, I would doubt very much that a small piece glued to the magnet would have any effect.
Quote from: 0c on May 23, 2009, 12:05:18 PM
Just a weird thought:
Attach an aluminum disc to the bottom of the magnet and slide it down the aluminum ramp.
The aluminum disc will remain static WRT the magnet. The magnet will induce Foucault (eddy) currents and an oppositional magnetic field in the ramp. The moving oppositional field in the ramp will induce secondary eddies and more oppositional magnetic forces into the aluminum disc.
... or maybe not.
It is my opinion that the magnets flip over, instead of sliding down, because the south side of the magnet is attracted to the alum more. It cant get a good grip and tumbles the rest of the way.
May be more going on its hard to tell. The north side seems to attract to the alum only very little.
There appears to be either a difference in the north and south magnet fields, or different elements constructs create different magnet field interaction, or both.
0c one of them things in the whipmag no one seem to have observed is the use of inductors that seems (with what I had to measure with ) no major reaction to the slowing of the moving rotor. Just one of them observations. Hmm,,,,
I see a copper plate in the times to come for me.
Quote from: lostcauses10x on May 24, 2009, 01:22:16 PM
0c one of them things in the whipmag no one seem to have observed is the use of inductors that seems (with what I had to measure with ) no major reaction to the slowing of the moving rotor. Just one of them observations. Hmm,,,,
I see a copper plate in the times to come for me.
CLaNZeR, IIRC actually did do rundown comparisons with the MKJDs of several different materials (different alum. alloys, I think) and found that they do slow the AGW rotating stator enough to stabilize it, and the different alloys behave slightly differently in this regard. I don't know if that's significant at all but I thot I'd mention it.
TK I saw some of that. yet in my not so accurate rundown times, I saw no real variation of the rotor with only them MKJD. Were as I can account for the induction action of such (rotor magnet layout, I expected more drag). I could not measure such.
Any practical application of such, Hmm who knows. May try a coil, or coils and drive the rotor and see what happens.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 24, 2009, 01:56:50 PM
CLaNZeR, IIRC actually did do rundown comparisons with the MKJDs of several different materials (different alum. alloys, I think) and found that they do slow the AGW rotating stator enough to stabilize it, and the different alloys behave slightly differently in this regard. I don't know if that's significant at all but I thot I'd mention it.
Summary of what we know so far, please correct me if I make any errors here:
1) The magnetic repulsion from eddy currents appears to affect the leading edge of the sliding magnet differently than the trailing edge, lifing the leading edge away from the conductive material. At the extreme, the leading edge will "flip" away and the magnet will fall.
2) There seems to be a difference between north and south pole response, similar to what might be expected if one pole was stronger than the other. At steep angles, the magnet may "pop" off the conductive ramp when one pole is in contact, but will slide smoothly when the opposite pole is facing the ramp.
3) There appears to be a "cling", or attraction, on the trailing edge of the sliding magnet. It is apparent even when the conductive material (aluminum or copper) is slightly past vertical.
4) Diamagnetic (copper) and paramagnetic (aluminum) materials show no difference with respect to magnet polarity. There may be a difference in the magnitude of the effect.
5) Orientation with respect to the earth's magnetic field does not seem to make any difference. The effect is identical in the northern and southern hemispheres.
NOTE: Since editing capabilites are limited in this forum, if you want to correct or add to any of these statements, please copy, edit, and post the changes in a new post. Hopefully, the latest copy will always contain the most current and accurate information.
good summery oc
Wow, I've been away for a week and just read this entire thread.
I like TK's video showing the effect even past vertical into a negative angle.
I believe the only way TK's magnet can hang on to a negative is because of the ring magnet he is using.
The center hole must allow some additional gripping affect from the opposite polarity to grab onto the opposite field induced in the aluminum.
That is interesting!
I'm starting to believe the trick with magnets is not using iron, but a non magnetic metal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SyeUAA504
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZhljtwJHKw
@TK
I like the disk rotation test. Is that something going on that makes the magnets spin or maybe the string wound up more in one direction than the other?
It looks like when the S pole is first in the approaching disk direction, the N pole does not want to be inline with the plate where the S pole has been. Is this just the way it looks or is something going on there?
Quote from: lumen on May 29, 2009, 11:01:00 AM
@TK
I like the disk rotation test. Is that something going on that makes the magnets spin or maybe the string wound up more in one direction than the other?
It looks like when the S pole is first in the approaching disk direction, the N pole does not want to be inline with the plate where the S pole has been. Is this just the way it looks or is something going on there?
I think this is a good experiment but in this video there are some obvious problems. Still, I think the result that one pole rides lower is a good one.
I need to make an arrangement where both poles see the same velocity of the moving conductor beneath them. Maybe a repeat of the "dangerous high-speed eddy current levitation" setup of Bill Beatty might work. Or I can put more hooks in my ceiling and compare the opposite region of the disk, which should reverse the velocity asymmetry beneath the poles of the magnet stack.
I tried to get the doubled fishing line untwisted, and when the magnet stack agrees with the compass I believe it is untwisted. If it is twisted it makes a bit of torque that swings the stack off North one way or the other.
In Scott's video he doesn't give credit to Lumen but I pointed out in the comments to that vid that Lumen (and X0000013) first pointed out the effect to me.
TK I see a hinged or gimbal holder for such tests. Not going to be an easy thing on a driven plate.
The other method I see with such is a very long plate on a liner slide as a driven plate.
A rotating beer keg?
This sounds like a fun experiment. The keg needs to be empty!
The keg needs to be empty!
LOL I will help with that, the emptying part that is..
Quote from: lumen on May 29, 2009, 12:14:51 PM
A rotating beer keg?
This sounds like a fun experiment. The keg needs to be empty!
Dropping magnets between aluminum plates seem to help provide more consistent results.
Seems that this is like the Boyd Bushman demonstration during a David Sereda interview.
I would be curious to see what radially programmed magnets would do while dropping down an aluminum or copper tube. My guess is that there would be a big difference depending on the polarity.
I'd volunteer to help emptying a beer keg but that has gotten me in trouble in the past... when I was just a kid. That's why I got involved with these projects. uhm - anyway. 'the more things change the more they stay the same'.
Take care.
nap
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 29, 2009, 10:02:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SyeUAA504
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZhljtwJHKw
Hmmm?
Hole flow with one pole and electron flow with the other?
(or if you want to get wild - Lorentz invariance with one pole and Lorentz covariance with the other)
The 'preferred' clockwise rotation doesn't surprise me. I've seen it in electrostatics. Don't have an explanation either.
What I find interesting is the magnet pair presents it's equator to magnetic North/South.
Excellent work!
Edit>>>
It would be interesting to see if that unexpected rotation was the same in the Southern hemisphere.
People can say what they want about Coriolis. I've had experiences that have proved it to me.
According to TK's latest comment on his youtube video, the asymmetry may be due to the inclination of the earth's magnetic field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bas00qdj6Xc
If that is so, then I have some questions:
Why was no difference in behavior seen between northern and southern hemispheres?
Why were no differences noted based on the geographic orientation of the slope?
(Thanks wattsup, maybe this thread will get more attention now)
Quote from: 0c on June 05, 2009, 10:15:12 AM
According to TK's latest comment on his youtube video, the asymmetry may be due to the inclination of the earth's magnetic field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bas00qdj6Xc
If that is so, then I have some questions:
Why was no difference in behavior seen between northern and southern hemispheres?
I suspect it has more to do with latitude. Perhaps the effect is equal at +30 compared to -30 and only slight difference between +30 and -25, as an example.
Quote
Why were no differences noted based on the geographic orientation of the slope?
Because the flux density is the same at one location regardless of orientation.
Of course, the above offered explanations only work if you believe the magnets are not the source of the magnetic flux but only focal points of ambient flux.
So the expected result would be greater deflection the closer you are to either of Earth's magnetic poles - virtually no noticeable difference between S or N when near the equator and TK's self spinning magnet above a superconductor would then change preferred rotation direction when moving to the other side of the equator and probably would not rotate when near the equator.
Consider the above for what you think it is worth.
It is likely more to do with the direction and the field density as it enters the aluminum plate compared to the same as it leaves the plate.
Small area entering with large area exiting is different than large area entering and small area exiting.
I posted a brief summary a couple weeks ago. I'm sure something new has been learned since then, and I'm also sure there may be errors in what I posted back then. If anyone has more information or corrections, please make a copy of the message, edit it and post the updated summary.
For instance, TK has been collaborating with other experimentors and the latest consensus is that the inclination of the earth's magnetic field is the most likely cause.
My previous summary is located at:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7490.msg182132#msg182132
Thanks.
Quote from: 0c on June 06, 2009, 12:16:55 PM
For instance, TK has been collaborating with other experimenters and the latest consensus is that the inclination of the earth's magnetic field is the most likely cause.
Should this consensus be correct and conventional understanding of magnetism is used then the experiments should prove nearby fields of permanent magnets can control the results even if they are not very close.
From here I'll wait for those results.
Just to be sure that we are all on the same page wrt magnet pole naming conventions:
The normal convention is that the Earth's magnetic pole in the North of Canada is a South magnetic pole.
The polarity of the compass needle magnet is marked correctly. The compass needle's North pole points to the Earth's South magnetic pole which is in the Arctic northern hemisphere.
Any magnet suspended like a compass will have its North pole pointing to geographic North.
The North pole of a magnet will Repel the North-seeking compass needle.
Flux lines are to be thought of as coming OUT of the North pole and going IN to the South pole of any magnet.
Dip or inclination refers to the angle at which the lines make with horizontal at any location. Horizontal = 0 degrees dip, and the dip is positive in the Northern hemisphere and negative in the Southern. In my location the dip angle is around 70 degrees--quite steep, only 20 degrees from vertical.
I have had one reliable report from Australia that has the opposite pole coming off, as predicted by the dip hypothesis. I also have a report that the polarity of coming off can be affected by doing the experiment in the field of a set of Helmholz coils, and I can confirm that--I didn't have time to tune our coils precisely but just jamming the juice in does indeed reverse or modify the effect, depending on orientation of the slide.
Still, I think the dip hypothesis has not been conclusively proven, and more data will be gathered over the next week or so.
Quote from: BEP on June 06, 2009, 02:02:21 PM
Should this consensus be correct and conventional understanding of magnetism is used then the experiments should prove nearby fields of permanent magnets can control the results even if they are not very close.
From here I'll wait for those results.
I agree. Earth's field is very very tiny compared to that of a neo and it will not even notice it.
If this effect is due to an external field, then placing a magnet nearby should alter it, as you say.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 06, 2009, 02:25:49 PM
I have had one reliable report from Australia that has the opposite pole coming off, as predicted by the dip hypothesis.
Sounds like item #5 in my summary may be wrong. Please update it when there is confirmation.
If this "dip" is responsible, I'm still curious why there is no perceived difference when the slope of the conductive material is facing towards or away from the earth's pole, or when the slope is crosswise (east<->west) to the dip.
I agree with TK!
I just ran several tests by putting a large magnet behind the aluminum sheet (south facing the back of the sheet) at a distance just far enough to change the compass to point north in the opposite of earths direction. (north now towards the sheet)
Results:
The North side of the sliding magnet would hang as usual UNTIL it gets just below the large magnet, then it would fall away!
Starting at the fall away point NOW, the south side would hang for the rest of the slide.
I believe it is the inclination angle of the earths lines of flux causing the effect as TK has said.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 06, 2009, 02:25:49 PM
Just to be sure that we are all on the same page wrt magnet pole naming conventions:
The normal convention is that the Earth's magnetic pole in the North of Canada is a South magnetic pole.
The polarity of the compass needle magnet is marked correctly. The compass needle's North pole points to the Earth's South magnetic pole which is in the Arctic northern hemisphere.
Any magnet suspended like a compass will have its North pole pointing to geographic North.
The North pole of a magnet will Repel the North-seeking compass needle.
Flux lines are to be thought of as coming OUT of the North pole and going IN to the South pole of any magnet.
Dip or inclination refers to the angle at which the lines make with horizontal at any location. Horizontal = 0 degrees dip, and the dip is positive in the Northern hemisphere and negative in the Southern. In my location the dip angle is around 70 degrees--quite steep, only 20 degrees from vertical.
I have had one reliable report from Australia that has the opposite pole coming off, as predicted by the dip hypothesis. I also have a report that the polarity of coming off can be affected by doing the experiment in the field of a set of Helmholz coils, and I can confirm that--I didn't have time to tune our coils precisely but just jamming the juice in does indeed reverse or modify the effect, depending on orientation of the slide.
Still, I think the dip hypothesis has not been conclusively proven, and more data will be gathered over the next week or so.
Funny thing TK, all the text books say the Earth's Magnetic North Pole is the one in North Canada.
I do not understand what you are saying when you say the above. Maybe you made a typo????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Magnetic_Pole
http://geography.about.com/od/learnabouttheearth/a/northpole_2.htm
http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=4616
Bill
Because opposite poles attract, the Earth's North Magnetic Pole is therefore physically a magnetic field south pole because a north pole attracts to it.
After the last tests I did I started to think how much does the earths field actually affect things and I was very surprised!
Dropping a 1" Diameter x 1/4" thick N50 only 12", it will flip over every time with north down. I live about 45 degrees north.
You can do this easily in your hand, just place it flat in you hand with north side up and quickly lower it about 12" and bang! north down. If you watch it real close, you will see it flipping.
If you start with north down, it will stay north down. This should be the opposite in Australia.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 06, 2009, 02:25:49 PM
Just to be sure that we are all on the same page wrt magnet pole naming conventions:
I think the above is the MAIN point. You can name poles anything you want as long as everyone discussing uses the same meanings. Either way can be correct but TK's description is the norm for pole naming.
Quote from: Omega_0 on June 06, 2009, 03:07:46 PM
I agree. Earth's field is very very tiny compared to that of a neo and it will not even notice it.
Be careful on wording. A 'very strong' neo needs to be within several inches to have an effect but the Earth's magnetic pole can be X miles away and have the same effect. We call the Earth's magnetic field weak?
Quote
If this effect is due to an external field, then placing a magnet nearby should alter it, as you say.
I wouldn't call it 'external'.
Having Helmholtz coils show change in effect does not surprise me. Now, having a Maxwell coil cause the same effect change would surprise me.
So, does everyone now see that Eddy doesn't need to play in this game?
Well, that's it then. It should be easy to build a free energy device using a wheel with some magnets with one larger magnet for a local field.
Just keep the local field the same magnitude as the earths field and place it inline with the north pole and opposite the inclination angle for your area.
The side of the wheel in the local field will rotate up while the other side will use the earths field and rotate down.
It should rotate for about 300 or 400 years.
Quote from: lumen on June 06, 2009, 08:16:55 PM
Well, that's it then. It should be easy to build a free energy device using a wheel with some magnets with one larger magnet for a local field.
Just keep the local field the same magnitude as the earths field and place it inline with the north pole and opposite the inclination angle for your area.
The side of the wheel in the local field will rotate up while the other side will use the earths field and rotate down.
It should rotate for about 300 or 400 years.
I wish I could hand you a cigar but not today.
When the magnet 'falls' up - don't you think the effect will reverse? Symmetry again ;)
QuoteWhen the magnet 'falls' up - don't you think the effect will reverse? Symmetry again
No, That is what the local field does. It makes that side of the wheel want to flip the other way. I just tested this and I'm thinking it works. The local field is only a small sphere inside the earths large field. One half of the wheel uses the local field and the other half uses the earths field.
It would be like if you could have a local spot of anti-gravity, could you make that work?
Quote from: lumen on June 06, 2009, 08:43:34 PM
No, That is what the local field does. It makes that side of the wheel want to flip the other way. I just tested this and I'm thinking it works. The local field is only a small sphere inside the earths large field. One half of the wheel uses the local field and the other half uses the earths field.
It would be like if you could have a local spot of anti-gravity, could you make that work?
Ok. I think I have the correct picture. I need to sleep on your idea. In the mean time, I think our discussion is going outside the scope of this thread.
So now we know that the magnet sliding on an aluminum plate and sticking or flipping, is actually because of the earths magnetic field!
I believe TK first mentioned this and it seems all testing indicates this is the case.
It indicates to me that I have always under estimated the strength of the earths magnetic field. I always figured it was very weak until doing some tests myself. Just playing with a N50 magnet in your hand you can feel the earths influence, once you know what to look for.
I've often wondered about the earths magnetic strength, that is one hunk of dynamo rotating at the core and it creates the magnetosphere that protects the earth from solar winds, now that's reaching out a long way, but why is it that metals near the pole do not slam into the ground, if the field is strong enough to deflect solar winds in orbit you'd expect it to be extremely powerful at the earths surface.
You've hit upon, I believe, the physical meaning of Maxwell's equations. The divergence of B is zero but the gradient of B has a value at any point in the field. (The curl of B also, but that has a different meaning.)
What this means is that the attraction (or repulsion) isn't an effect of the strength of the field but rather its spatial distribution, specifically how it falls off with distance. In a uniform field a magnetic substance only experiences a torque, not a pull. This is why a compass needle (or a needle on a cork floating in water) isn't forced to move northward, it just rotates to align with the local field lines.
The earth's field is uniform over small scales in the lab, so magnets and iron don't migrate.
I think.
Hypothesis only…
Presume for a moment that the reason static charges of the same polarity repel is purely because of the magnetic field resulting from spin. Also, then the main energy transfer is due to the combining or clashing of individual magnetic fields â€"or- you can push a magnet with another magnet when they are repelling.
If the main conveyance is through the magnetic fields then there is a possible explanation of a non-moving magnet staying at rest â€" when moving it falls under the influence of the ambient magnetic field. This would be no different than a point charge angular velocity due to Lorentz.
In plain terms: the Earth’s magnetic field sees the moving magnet the same as it would see a moving point charge. It applies torque to the assumed point charge (the incredibly tiny magnet and field) but only when the field of the magnet is moving perpendicular to the Earth’s field . In other words, the moving charges/magnetic fields are all realigned but only when moving relative to the ambient field.
Sound ridiculous? The results of these experiments seem to be pointing to Faraday disk like results.
The suspended magnets worked like a perfect compass when the disk was not rotating. When the disk was rotating it was rotating within two magnetic fields, Earth’s and the suspended magnets. If you have two fields out of phase from another a third vector can be created â€" rotation. If you have rotation and one field you create another field. If the direction of rotation is wrong you would only have deflection. If it is right one of the fields would be caused to rotate.
As far as bulldozers not being stuck to the ground and unable to move….
I think they must be in a very deep hole if this ever happens.
This may fall under near/far field. Another definition that varies. My belief is far field can easily cause a torque with almost no attracting/repelling while near field can do it all with much more force.
The reason I say this is I remember a grade school experiment with a magnet floating on a plastic lid in water. It was a good compass but we had to keep pushing it back to center and it always headed for the North edge of the water container even if we placed it on another edge.
Just open thoughts above….
Strike my last mention of rotation of the suspended magnets caused by a rotating field and static field creating a third vector.
I just replaced my thread with monofilament and it only deflected but at different amounts. At the moment I'm thinking the attractive fields generated in the disk are simply stronger with the disk rotating one direction as opposed to the other direction. It may have only been stretching the thread more in one direction of disk rotation.
Magnetic levitation with a WHOLE lot of copper ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ngx8YMLOzU
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 07, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
This is why a compass needle (or a needle on a cork floating in water) isn't forced to move northward, it just rotates to align with the local field lines.
The earth's field is uniform over small scales in the lab, so magnets and iron don't migrate.
I think.
When you take two magnets you get a stronger magnetic force
response then when you take a magnet and an object made of
steel or iron.
A magnet will have a pole to pole distance very small relative
to the earths magnetic pole to pole distance, so a compass
magnet is going to primarily experience a twisting motion, the
friction of which can be made very low (Think; Cavendish
experiment.) The "delta" magnetic force (stronger on one end
then the other) is going to be very small. If the compass magnet
could somehow "float in space" and not experience terrestrial friction
I think it would slowly accelerate towards the stronger magnetic pole.
Iron would accelerate even more slowly. The environment has energy
flows that can interfere with this migration process, even if friction
was eliminated. Ions and free electrons definitely feel the earths
magnetic force but since they are electrically charged they primarily
spiral. Satelites have been designed that use magnetic reaction control
systems to allign themselves using earth's magnetic field, electrically.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Not an expert here by a long way but I don't see much mention here of the Lenz's law. And from what I found recently I don't see anything here regarding the braking of magnets sliding on aluminum that is not explained by Lenz's law. At least recently when I dropped a large heavy neo magnet down a copper pipe and also down an aluminum pipe I was astounded to see it float slowly down both pipes. I then tried sliding it down an inclined sheet of copper and a sheet of aluminum and in both cases it slid slowly. All Lenz's law from what was explained to me. However I don't quite understand a free falling magnet always flipping over to one pole. I just tried that and see (here in Northern hemisphere at least) that the North pole of the magnet always wants to flip down. Does the South pole flip down in the Southern hemisphere? I thought the lines of magnetic forces would be parallel to the surface of the planet rather than in the center of it or below the surface. Something is not adding up in what I have observed.
Please excuse me if I have missed something here as I didn't read the entire thread but the first page and the last couple pages seem to be drawing some conclusions that don't quite sound correct to me. At least I don't see what the Earth's magnetic field has to do with magnetic braking of a neo magnet sliding down a sheet of aluminum. In trying that I found no difference with North or South down when sliding. Even almost vertical it didn't flip. I haven't watched the video's yet so I'm just jumping in on some of this without having all the info. But again from what I've skimmed some things I'm reading don't make sense.