Overunity.com Archives

Energy from Natural Resources => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: Neptune01 on June 16, 2009, 08:07:05 PM

Title: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: Neptune01 on June 16, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
I do have a question for those propeller heads out there.

Water has 3 main stages â€"solid (ice), liquid and gas (steam)
Now, I have been trying read as much info on HHO production and most of these if not all focus on the extraction of HHO from water â€" Liquid form.

I vaguely remember this from school days so please be patient!
That if heat is applied to water - the molecules become much more active.

Does this mean the bond keeping the H2O together is a bit weaker in steam?
Is it not easier to split HHO in steam rather than water with Electrolysis at low temps/watts/v/a?


I know there are reports of this being done at high temperatures like the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis)
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b26.pdf (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b26.pdf)
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/doe_funds_sri_i.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/doe_funds_sri_i.html)

But for us trying to achieve just 5 liters of HHO per minute and a steam temperature of 120C is this not something worthwhile to investigate?

I mean all vehicles engines generate heat which could be used to heat/boil the water to form steam.

If anybody has tried this I would appreciate your feedback?
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: sm0ky2 on June 16, 2009, 09:30:12 PM
the main problem i see with this is seperating the water vapor from the gas, so you can use it.

with water electrolysis, most of the water remains in the reseviore, there is "some" vapor, but you can still achieve greater than 98% Hydrogen and Oxygen samples from pure water.

with steam, you will have a much greater water content in your gasses or mixture of gasses.
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: fritznien on June 16, 2009, 11:45:35 PM
it will be 100% water. steam is non conductive so no Electrolysis.
Electrolysis is the neutralization of ions already in the water, its natural state. thus the Faraday limit one electron one
hydrogen atom.
fritznien
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: HeairBear on June 17, 2009, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: fritznien on June 16, 2009, 11:45:35 PM
it will be 100% water. steam is non conductive so no Electrolysis.
Electrolysis is the neutralization of ions already in the water, its natural state. thus the Faraday limit one electron one
hydrogen atom.
fritznien

One electron, one hydrogen atom? What happens to the other hydrogen atom? It stays stuck to the oxygen atom? So shouldn't it be one electron, two hydrogen atoms? Do you have a reference? I find that most interesting and would like to know more. Thanks fritznien!

Wasn't Faraday's work before the Bohr atomic model?
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: fritznien on June 17, 2009, 12:57:32 AM
Quote from: HeairBear on June 17, 2009, 12:13:25 AM
One electron, one hydrogen atom? What happens to the other hydrogen atom? It stays stuck to the oxygen atom? So shouldn't it be one electron, two hydrogen atoms? Do you have a reference? I find that most interesting and would like to know more. Thanks fritznien!

Wasn't Faraday's work before the Bohr atomic model?
your not breaking water with 2 volts, water is a very good insulator in pure form(ions removed) the plus electrode attracts negative ions
oxygen and the negative electrode attracts the positive ions hydrogen. so one electron to neutralize each hydrogen and 2 taken from each oxygen, the currant flow in the liquid is ions.
even a small currant has billions of electrons.
the point of Faraday's law is that gas production is proportional to currant.
wiki has a detailed explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis
where my father worked he often used steam to put out fires on equipment that used 550 volts. this was a smoke generator
in a meat packing plant. if water hit the 550 it went bang.
fritznien
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: CrazyEwok on June 17, 2009, 01:01:43 AM
There is already steam electrolysis... Your problem is pourus electrodes... there is a link in this forum somewhere about it. Pretty much you have a channel that allows the steam to flow and then the electrolysis happens and separates the gases by drawing them to the other side of the electrode... good luck with it... pourus electrodes are expensive at best.
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: wojwrobel on November 16, 2009, 04:47:33 PM
hello
there is a patent for steam electrolysis !!!!!!!!!!
may be very efficient....

acidic water of ph 4,5, then you boil it and it becomes H5O2 (dihydromiun radical ions) then you provide a laser or light emiting diode of 240nm wave length and you have H2 and O2 and you supply RF signal of 46 ghz 5W to prevent recombination , then you separate the gas to H2 and O2 by opposite attraction and that's it

I'm trying to replicate this but waiting for parts

cheers from poland
wojsciech
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: joemumu on February 22, 2010, 05:41:55 AM
@wojwrobel

Have you had any success?
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: dankie on February 23, 2010, 12:55:45 PM
Theres no way this guy will ever make a RF 46 Ghz signal generator , neither will he be able to buy one .

May I ask where you are shopping for this Wow ?

Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: wojwrobel on February 23, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7040.msg229011#msg229011
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: alexlab79 on March 05, 2010, 10:09:35 AM
hello, i have tested many year(5) ago HV HF circuit from my lifter experiment (20kv 35khz pulsed at 100hz) in steam of water in transparent glass pipe...result: beautifull blue and yellow fire...but i have see  blue HV spark go to my steam source(electric boiler) at 2 feet of the electrode and reset the  breaker of my labs!

P.S scuse me for my bad english, i speak in french
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: mscoffman on March 06, 2010, 05:51:32 PM
This thread is somewhat humorous;

Electrolysis means using electrical conduction to separate
water into it's components....One of the foundations of this
is that you need to make the water conductive to do so.
This means adding material to be ionized to the water
because ions make up the electrical conduction path.

Will heating the water make it easier to electrolyze? â€" obviously,
Yes. But turning it into stream defeats the ionization current
mechanism. (and probably the definition of electrolytic
decomposition as well).

But what do we know about water droplets...well, they tend
to create static electricity, when they bump into each other, and
since there are no current conduction paths, it builds up. Leading
to alexlab79 saw in his apparatus. A Kind of a steam and AC
capacitive coupled Van De Graf HV Generator. Neat!

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Electrolysis in steam vs liquid
Post by: sparks on March 08, 2010, 06:55:35 AM
     We need to remember that you can have steam at very low temperatures if the reaction vessel is held under vacuum conditions.  If the vapor is subjected to ionizing frequencies in the uv spectrum and the resultant free electrons are removed from the reaction vessel a higher yield of hydrogen and ozone are accomplished than by simple electrolysis.  Worthy of research is the way in which plants split water.