Hi All,
All details and larger photo can be found by clicking the below link. Register if you are not a member already.
A jpeg is enclosed. If your interested in giving my setup a try contact me. Please -- Armchair philosopher nay sayer advice not wanted.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?t=372
If the gravity is pulling in one direction and the stator magnet is pulling in the other direction, the roller would stand still and rotate?
Well, if so, why can't you just fix the roller with bearings, and remove the chain. If the roller isn't going anywhere anyway, there is no difference if it "freely" rolls in the same place, or fixing it in that particular place. I don't say it will not work, but give it another thought, and try to see what is happening. If two forces are pulling equally in to directions, I cant see how the roller is suppose to roll at all.
You are using a permanent magnet to do the same job as a thread or wire is doing by connecting the thread to the roller so it doesnt roll the whole way down by gravity.
Just give it another thought.
Vidar
Hi, Been there and done that.
In short the runner magnet "MUST" have a straight "LEVEL" surface to roll on.
The rolling surface can be inclined but MUST br level. No sags, bumps, twists.
Placing the runner between two rollers does not work. (sags-bumps)
Always remember that the "ENTIRE" runner magnet is drawn to the stator magnet. Not just the top or bottom of it. The reason for its roll is the friction on the bottom of the magnet v/s no friction on the top of the runner.
Runner spocket fingers inside the roller chain insure bottom friction area and at the same time provide the means for power transfer to an axle point.
A floating, spinning, runner magnet has no stationary power pick off point.
A grease covered inclined wood plank with a runner magnet on it is useless.
A complete explanation is in the other forum I provided a link to.
Tom
I don't get it....is 12003 in your user name, the year you expect to get it working?
lol
Seriously though, props on your build skills.
Quote from: TechStuf on June 25, 2009, 01:59:06 PM
I don't get it....is 12003 in your user name, the year you expect to get it working?
Quote from: TechStuf on June 25, 2009, 01:59:06 PM
I don't get it....is 12003 in your user name, the year you expect to get it working?
lol
Seriously though, props on your build skills.
Where in this forum has anyone seen an actual working permanent magnet motor device??
All postings from what I see in this forum are plans, ideas and builds that dont work continuously yet. Or for that matter dont work at all. I am not finished with this device so I will find out later if it pans out. I try hard and enjoy doing what I do even if it does not pan out. Deep thinking keeps Alzheimers out of my head
That seems to be thae case with many who are into this I see. 12003 might be the year we will see something come around-- who knows. Tom
lol
Seriously though, props on your build skills.
Quote from: magnetman12003 on June 25, 2009, 09:54:30 AM
Hi, Been there and done that.
In short the runner magnet "MUST" have a straight "LEVEL" surface to roll on.
The rolling surface can be inclined but MUST br level. No sags, bumps, twists.
Placing the runner between two rollers does not work. (sags-bumps)
Always remember that the "ENTIRE" runner magnet is drawn to the stator magnet. Not just the top or bottom of it. The reason for its roll is the friction on the bottom of the magnet v/s no friction on the top of the runner.
Runner spocket fingers inside the roller chain insure bottom friction area and at the same time provide the means for power transfer to an axle point.
A floating, spinning, runner magnet has no stationary power pick off point.
A grease covered inclined wood plank with a runner magnet on it is useless.
A complete explanation is in the other forum I provided a link to.
Tom
Wouldn't it be hard to find a perfect place for the runner? I mean, either the runner jumps into the permanentmagnet, or it will roll back towards gravity. Finding that perfect balance is impossible - One infinite small error and the runner will go in one or another direction... Maybe I don't get it, but I cannot see how friction difference on top and the bottom of a wheel affects only one part of the wheel - at the bottom! The entire runner is a part of a solid physical thing. Everything yo do with it, the rest of that thing will respond accordingly, so friction will be applied on the WHOLE runner, not partially. Hmmm... I guess you have to make a big clear, and nice drawing with explanations.
Keeping Alzheimers away is an absolutely good excuse to perform this hobby. The drawback with being an inventor/engineer/professor etc, is that you at a sertain point in your life will go nuts. I'm not sure what is best - Going nuts, or getting Alzheimers...
My late father's male cousin (We just called him Uncle Roar), died from Alzheimers. We started to believe he had the condition when he now and then repeated storys, messages, forgot his wallet or keys (every well person does that - but not him). When he dropped the dinner plate into the floor, and just sat there and did not understand why it was so messy on the floor... bad thing this Alzheimers, and very bad for the family with new generations growing up. At the end he did not recognize his family, could not speak, did business in his pants. This was a very hard period for his family. RIP!
lets hope you get it working before year 12003, as I probably will be dead by then (by age, hopefully not from Alzheimers :))
Vidar
I did take another look at the picture. I can see that the chain is level/horizontal at the left side of the runner. As the runner wants to go to the right, this left part is getting steeper so the runner will meet more uphill. So the runner WILL find its rest somewhere in that area.
The question I ask myself then: Does the runner wants to climb further than the balanced point between gravity and magnetism? Will it start to roll clockwise?
If the runner is basicly being balanced within a space of 1mm, maybe less, it would in fact not be any differenc in fixing the runner in that place, and remove the chain.
Will it then start to roll? Now it is suddely quite obvious that this machine can't work. Just by thinking differently.
Hmmmmm.... vidar
Remember that the ever slipping downwards chain is the "GREASE" in this application.
I think you are missing something here. The runner will not spin. If the magnet inside the runner is fixed so it will not move the stator magnet will pull the runner up hill along with the bottom chain but the runner will not roll because of the attraction will not allow it to spin, and when it gets to the top it will jam. If you put a magnet loose inside the runner, the runner will roll but it will not have any push or pull on the chain. It will act like a train riding on the tracks. So again if the runner magnet is fixed it would be like gluing the runner to a link in the chain and pulling it to the top. If the runner mag is loose, it would be like shifting your car in neutral and pulling on a rope attached to the front bumper.
I thought I covered this in the other forum.
The round runner magnet is attracted to the stator magnet from any point on a "FLAT SURFACE" of the inclined non magnetic chain. This statment is true.
If a one way clutch bearing was "NOT" on the chain sprockets axle "BOTH" the runner magnet AND the chain WILL travel up the incline towards the Stator magnet and then a jam would occur. This statement is true.
But now we have a condition where the roller chain itself can not move up the track at all. Only down the track freely. The runner magnet has its spokes deep inside the chain and that is a huge friction point.
However the top side of the runner (no friction) is free to turn/roll/ attract upwards towards the stator -- and it will try to do so.
But by doing that it pushes the roller chain under it downwards in the direction the chain is free to turn in.
The weight of a heavy runner magnet and a roller chain that constantly slips downward under it are the "GO DOWNHILL" forces that come into play as soon as the runner trys to move uphill.
The end result should be the runner magnet spinning in one position. I am close to finding that out
The speed of the runner would depend on how close to the stator it was placed on the inclined plane.
Quote from: magnetman12003 on July 02, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I covered this in the other forum.
The round runner magnet is attracted to the stator magnet from any point on a "FLAT SURFACE" of the inclined non magnetic chain. This statment is true.
If a one way clutch bearing was "NOT" on the chain sprockets axle "BOTH" the runner magnet AND the chain WILL travel up the incline towards the Stator magnet and then a jam would occur. This statement is true.
But now we have a condition where the roller chain itself can not move up the track at all. Only down the track freely. The runner magnet has its spokes deep inside the chain and that is a huge friction point.
However the top side of the runner (no friction) is free to turn/roll/ attract upwards towards the stator -- and it will try to do so.
But by doing that it pushes the roller chain under it downwards in the direction the chain is free to turn in.
The weight of a heavy runner magnet and a roller chain that constantly slips downward under it are the "GO DOWNHILL" forces that come into play as soon as the runner trys to move uphill.
The end result should be the runner magnet spinning in one position. I am close to finding that out
The speed of the runner would depend on how close to the stator it was placed on the inclined plane.
Hi:
Some points:
"Level" means parallel to the earth's surface, where gravity will not allow a ball to roll either way if a planar surface onto which it is placed is "level".
A "Flat" or "straight" surface can be either level or not level.
And last, the proposed system appears sound, but a serious miscalculation has occurred:
You are relying on the inertia and friction of the entire dual chain, 4 sprocket "runner" system to be near or equal to the rolling inertia and friction of the magnet axle and free sprockets for this to work.
That is to say, the magnetic attraction from the stator magnet to this roller magnet pulls the free axle/sprockets up the chain incline with ever increasing force as the gap between magnets reduces.
So at say 6" the magnetic force might be 1 Newton, and at 3" it is 2 N, and 1.5" it is 4 N etc. Magnetic "pull" force is the inverse square of the distance. But gravity's pull down the incline is merely linear at this small delta distance from earth's center. (the weight of the roller assembly is always the same anywhere along the incline)
So two things occur:
1 the roller assembly, if the magnetic force is higher than the weight force pulling it down the incline, will make the roller assembly roll uphill - with ever increasing acceleration as this force rises non linearly.
2 the chain runner assembly has 2x more sprocket friction and inertia, and considerable chain inertia than does the roller assembly - so it cannot respond fast enough to move the roller assembly back down the chain by turning the sprockets and chain via gravity.
So you will get the roller assembly either not moving, or sliding down to the lowest point if the magnetic force is lower than the gravity force. And if the magnetic force is above the gravity force the roller assembly will rapidly climb the incline and stick to the stator magnet before the chain slides from the increased height - due to higher friction and inertia of the chain assembly.
Actually even if you could balance the inertia and friction, this cannot work. The weight of the roller assembly is always the same unless you've found a way to modulate gravity! So as soon as the magnet's up pull exceeds gravity's down pull, the magnet force dominates and it will roll to move ever closer to the stator magnet.
Let's assume a 20 degree incline. Let's assume at this incline angle your roller's force from gravity parallel to the incline is 204 grams (2 Newtons). Let's assume your roller sprocket radius is 20 mm.
This means you have a down going torque on the roller assembly of 2N x 0.02m = 0.04 N-m. This is the torque exterted by gravity on the roller at any point along your inclined chain, period!
Now at 100 mm from stator magnet to roller magnet let's say the attract force upwards is also 2 Newtons, on this same radius for an upwards torque of 0.04 N-m. Here the two would balance.
Move the roller up a bit, and the force between magnets rises to 2.2 Newtons, and now you have an upwards torque of 0.044 N-m and still have a downwards torque of 0.04, for a net upwards torque of 0.004 N-m. Once you upset this balance between upwards magnetic force and downwards gravity force, the magnetic upwards force dominates and the roller will roll uphill until it reaches some physical stop.
Gravity cannot pull this back down, as long as the magnetic force exerts more upwards torque than the downwards gravity torque!
it was a good effort, but you can rule this out without wasting money and time building it!
If you had a way to pull the roller upwards magnetically and then change {lessen} the magnetic pull - the chain assembly would go back down via gravity. But as long as the magnetic force exceeds gravity's pull, it can only go up, closing the magnetic gap and making ever more magnetic up force!
DMBoss
Hi,
That is the best explanation I have ever seen to date. It makes good sence. I will have to rethink this again and maybe make some modifications.
I know from experimenting that the runner magnet will head strait up a flat inclined roller chain ladder to the stator magnet on the top of the incline. I did that many times. You are right in the fact that the closer the runner gets to the stator the faster it rolls.
My whole idea was to "keep pulling the carpet out from under the runner magnets rolling feet" while it was heading up the incline. The carpet being the roller chain track in this case. Anyone have another idea??
Tom
Here is an interesting conservation of energy device that can run for hours.
here is how it functions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvqHF74gc4g
Have you tried to replicate this? The text on U tube is in Russian. Need to have a good idea what the measurements are and materials used. As well as sources to purchase the items. In English.
Hi Mag.
we used to do experiments with these devices back in High School Physics class, it has been known for some time as a novelty toy.
I think the russian guy sells schematics on how he builds his but I did draw up a diagram of how ours worked in class but I don't have the precise measurements and parts listings, I do remember that the clock spring had a set screw on it to adjust for spring tension which was a crucial factor in the returned sling shot effect.
Jerry ;)
Here is another wild idea of mine that may have possiblitys if made right. Its so simple it might actually work.
A single powerfull rod magnet sliding inside of a balanced pivoting tube allows the magnet to be gravity dropped on one side or the other like a kids see-saw.
You hand start this device by quickly pushing down on any side of the balanced tube. The magnet inside shifts and falls towards any wheel that has the same repelling magnetic forces.
The wheels then repel rotate only one way because the one way clutch bearing on their axles prevents the wheels from rotating the other way. The beauty of this is no timing adjustments are needed at all.
In the meantime the tube magnet is also repelled back through the tube past the tubes pivot point. It gravity drops down on the other side where its hit by the repel forces of other wheel.
Motion is now self sustained from one wheel to the other.
Both magnet wheels should rotate faster and faster.
Will it or wont it work and if not why? I am open for all comments on it.
Hi Mag.
It is a very nice idea but it is very difficult to fool Mother Nature if not impossible by current standards and practices, you will only know if you build it and see if it finds it's center of gravity and comes to a stop.
From my Physics teachings, 'Forces' only store energy that was given to the force to do work. and there are also other things that were taught in the Physics class like the magic hand which creates an illusion of something working but stops when actually it was the magic hand that gave it stored energy to function until that stored energy is depleted.
Years ago. but have fun anyways.
Jerry ;)
Quote from: magnetman12003 on July 03, 2009, 11:34:36 PM
Here is another wild idea of mine that may have possiblitys if made right. Its so simple it might actually work.
A single powerfull rod magnet sliding inside of a balanced pivoting tube allows the magnet to be gravity dropped on one side or the other like a kids see-saw.
You hand start this device by quickly pushing down on any side of the balanced tube. The magnet inside shifts and falls towards any wheel that has the same repelling magnetic forces.
The wheels then repel rotate only one way because the one way clutch bearing on their axles prevents the wheels from rotating the other way. The beauty of this is no timing adjustments are needed at all.
In the meantime the tube magnet is also repelled back through the tube past the tubes pivot point. It gravity drops down on the other side where its hit by the repel forces of other wheel.
Motion is now self sustained from one wheel to the other.
Both magnet wheels should rotate faster and faster.
Will it or wont it work and if not why? I am open for all comments on it.
magnetman:
I tried to send a reply, but my attachment was too large, so I guess the post never got through.
Your idea is similar to an actual patent claiming self running magnetically actuated gravity over balance wheel, by "Imris".
See the shortened patent attached. (it is in German and while I have a machine translation, I can't find it now). Nevertheless, you can get the idea from the images.
Imris takes advantage of the fact that if you have two repelling magnets and put them between steel plates, the steel "shunts" the magnet flux sideways, and lessens the repulsion force between the two magnets.
Hence he has 1/2 of the wheel shunted via steel plates and this makes his mass shifting via repelling magnets for a gravity over balance wheel.
Your idea, first off needs repulsion only, unlike the errors in your sketch, and no it cannot work with one way bearings or clutches, you must insure the two rotors stay in "register", which means you have to use gears. (othewise in between magnets on a rotor is the opposite polarity and one rotor will simply seek out this attract zone and the two will get out of phase and lock up)
So you've got gear friction penalty to contend with right off the bat.
And you will have magnetic drag too. As the magnets on each wheel approach each other below center or register, they are indeed going to push each other inwards on the respective wheels. But this also makes a serious magnetic drag torque too!
And then as they rotate past register or centerline, they are farther apart from each other, so do not make as much boost torque on exiting the registration zone where each wheel's magnet pushes the other one inwards on that wheel!
And finally the gravity torque is absolutely miniscule in your concenpt.
I have been working on O/U systems for a decade, in a professional capacity. With fully functional 3D simulation of magnetics and dynamic motion, and design, CNC fabrication, testing, etc.
I slapped together a 3D simulation of the dynamics and magnets of your idea, and it has no hope of working. The net or average gravity torque is less than 10 milliwatts at a reasonable shaft speed, and friction can be expected to be in the 300 to 500 mw range based on 8" diameter rotors and appropriate gearing and the slider frictions etc.
Accurate mass, inertia and gravity effects are accounted for.
See attached summary before I aborted this simulation. (as it is very tedious to do composite magnetic and dynamic sims - if it is not worth continuing when you find a killer factor)
Your concept only shoves the magnets inboard of the wheels for about 30-40 degrees of rotation - while Imris' idea has them shoved inwards for 180 degrees. Even his suffers from small net torque, unless you use massive magnets and extra mass tied to those magnets.
I would not pursue this in a real bench test. But Imris' idea has some potential, HOWEVER - tuning it all to get into the right ballpark, is going to be a nightmare and cost a lot of time and $$$.
DMBoss
Quote from: DMBoss on July 05, 2009, 06:31:13 AM
magnetman:
I tried to send a reply, but my attachment was too large, so I guess the post never got through.
Your idea is similar to an actual patent claiming self running magnetically actuated gravity over balance wheel, by "Imris".
See the shortened patent attached. (it is in German and while I have a machine translation, I can't find it now). Nevertheless, you can get the idea from the images.
This system leaves something to be desired. It says you can attach multiple files, but then it only grabs the last one you attach!
here, attached is a PDF of the Imris magnetic/gravity patent images:
DMBoss
Hey All,
Check this out on U tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XqWvE_CpU4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%2FOS%3AMagnet%5FMotor%5Fby%5FFM%5FConcepts&feature=player_embedded
Fake or fact ???
There is already a thread dedicated to FMconceptz magnet motor on the board maybe you should paste that link there and it is also on PESWiki
Kudos
Quote from: magnetman12003 on July 05, 2009, 11:23:23 PM
Hey All,
Check this out on U tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XqWvE_CpU4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%2FOS%3AMagnet%5FMotor%5Fby%5FFM%5FConcepts&feature=player_embedded
Fake or fact ???
It slows down, and it speeds up - and slows down again, then speeds up...? If a magnet motor worked, there should not be any EMF to limit the RPM - so it would probably spin up to an incredible speed... But this motor looks fake, but I cannot say for sure. Too much hidden facts in the video. I'm sceptic :-)
Vidar