It appears that the bond in urea is less strong then in water.
4 hydrogen atoms are within urea vs water.
It takes 1.23v to get hydrogen from water.
It only takes 0.37v to get hydrogen from urine.
Leftover waste is useful for agriculture amongst other things.
This is excellent tech read more at the link below.
http://www.physorg.com/news165836803.html
LET THE HYDROGEN TESTING BEGIN!!!
It is cheap and effective now with chicken feathers in the tank it will allow for a higher energy output!
Quote from: infringer on July 05, 2009, 03:28:46 PM
It appears that the bond in urea is less strong then in water.
4 hydrogen atoms are within urea vs water.
It takes 1.23v to get hydrogen from water.
It only takes 0.37v to get hydrogen from urine.
Leftover waste is useful for agriculture amongst other things.
This is excellent tech read more at the link below.
http://www.physorg.com/news165836803.html
LET THE HYDROGEN TESTING BEGIN!!!
It is cheap and effective now with chicken feathers in the tank it will allow for a higher energy output!
I am not an expert in electricity, but I believe that volts is not an accurate measure of the amount of current.
That is correct I really wish they would have mentioned the amount of current used for the application indeed unfortunately I did not recall reading that information but I will see if I can dig up the current specs some how or another.
You will discover that the initial voltage drop from using your urine is because of its increased conductivity... one of the many problems with this is that your urine has a sulfur content (diet dependant) and this will produce a nasty gas with your O2...
The unfortunate thing is in order to overcome the resistance of the water you need X Voltage. You can lower the voltage by shrinking the gap between the reactive surfaces or by decreasing the waters resistance with additives...
yeah,.. i would think about using salt or some other electrolyte before we all start pissing in our electrolyzers......
QuoteThat is correct I really wish they would have mentioned the amount of current used for the application indeed unfortunately I did not recall reading that information but I will see if I can dig up the current specs some how or another
It doesn't matter what current they used, it's irrelevant in this context. The fact that they can do this at .37 volt instead of 1.23 speaks for itself.
If the electrolyser draws 20 amps with water it dissipates 24.6 Watts of power, if the electrolyser with urine draws 20 amps it only dissipates 7.4 Watts of power.
This is far more efficient than any electrolyte I know of.
QuoteYou will discover that the initial voltage drop from using your urine is because of its increased conductivity... one of the many problems with this is that your urine has a sulfur content (diet dependant) and this will produce a nasty gas with your O2...
The unfortunate thing is in order to overcome the resistance of the water you need X Voltage. You can lower the voltage by shrinking the gap between the reactive surfaces or by decreasing the waters resistance with additives...
I think your missing the point here Crazy person. Apart from the fact that it is the H2 that is required, not the O2, I think your also probably confusing sulphur with ammonia, and it's not about increased conductivity.
use urea fertilizer, urine is 95% water
Have fun and wear a respirator while experimenting
Quote from: IronHead on July 07, 2009, 06:25:01 PM
use urea fertilizer, urine is 95% water
Nice. Urea boosters. But the Feds wouldn't appreciate fertilizer being used for "unintended purposes" heh.
How about Screw them , they dont even want you to use water these days with out them knowing about it.
How much hydrogen could be obtained through 95 percent urea, and how is the cost effectiveness?
3 words **Just Build It**
then you will know
Rofl.. That seems to be the knee-jerk response from many around here. Why not just figure out the chemistry behind the process? I was just curious if someone knew off the top of their heads... I could probably google the information.
takes about 10 minutes to preform this test if you have a HHO Cell , if you dont then why would you even have interest in this thread.
Quote from: IronHead on July 07, 2009, 07:47:28 PM
takes about 10 minutes to preform this test if you have a HHO Cell , if you dont then why would you even have interest in this thread.
It's an interesting subject, but running out to buy urea or just pissing in a cell to see what happens might not be the smartest route. I'll look for some information on the web.
http://www.physorg.com/news165836803.html
In today's debate, Marcus and Associate Professor of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering Gerardine Botte debate whether or not science holds the answers to our environmental woes. As director of the university's Electrochemical Engineering Research Laboratory, Botte developed the patent-pending ammonia catalytic electrolyzer technology, which efficiently converts ammonia into hydrogen to produce inexpensive fuel. Botte's research interests also include numerical methods, mathematical modeling, material science and electro-catalysis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLHT5ffW2ZQ&feature=PlayList&p=13A47FFF1E85F594&index=0&playnext=1
http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/2005/Ganley_fuelcell.pdf
There is alot more out there, This is just some of the stuff floating around on my forum. This is a proven technology
Quote3 words **Just Build It**
Not quite as simple as just pissing in an electrolyser though is it? Some thought and consideration has to be given to this - the first being that most home built electrolysers are common duct for hydrogen and oxygen, so-called HHO.
The chemistry is important as I don't believe we would be getting oxygen from urine. Rather we would be getting hydrogen and other unwanted, probably unpleasant gases which we would need to do something with (preferably not breathe). Furthermore, unlike an electrolyte in water that does not get used up, I believe we would soon be left with just water as the urea would actually get used up.
It will therefore be more complicated an electrolyser design than what most of us already have, plus there is the consideration of any toxic gases that may be evolved. So pissing in an open duct electrolyser and 'just doing it' might not be such a good idea until we know what else apart from H2 is evolved, and what the implications are.
That said, the efficiency of obtaining hydrogen this way would appear to be over 3 times that of standard electrolysis, which can't be a bad thing as long as we're not going to be poisoning the air we breathe.
You'll need to drink a bunch of water to generate all this piss.
How much energy will be lost due to needing to isolate or contain the unwanted by-product gasses from the reaction?
Also... what if I want a power booster on my unit? Will the device come with a toilet seat attachment for producing "nitro methane" from solid waste? ;)
Perhaps an additional GEET reactor would come in handy here, when the electrolized unine gets combusted?
I seem to remember that GEET has been tested, with clean enough exhaust gasses, running on a mixture with at least a significant urine component.
Actually, this is interesting. I followed your link Infringer and it gave link to another article that gave a schematic of the process. Notice that Potassium Carbonate and nitrogen are the other byproducts along with the hydrogen from the process. This must mean they are adding potassium to the reaction. Probably potassium hydroxide, I am not sure.
So throwing up a few calculations we get:
Urea: CAS# 58069-82-2
CH4N2O
MW= 60g. / mole
2 Moles H2 X 22.4 Liters H2 X Mole Urea = 44.8 Liters H2
Mole Urea Mole H2 60 grams Urea 60 grams Urea
(0.95) X (44.8 ) = 42.6 Liters of H2 / 60 grams of 95% Urea
or (0.05) X (44.8 ) = 2.24 Liters of H2 / 60 grams of 5% Urea (URINE)
This looks to me like just a novel way of processing waste urine and getting a hydrogen byproduct out of it. Urine would have to be separated from other human waste, which we don't normally do, so this seems a bit unpractical. I haven't been able to get at the full article yet so I don't have all the details of what they had in mind for this process, but I guess it is just processing a human waste product and getting out useful byproducts of nitrogen, hydrogen, and potassium carbonate; which can all be sold.
My guess is that the potassium is added to cleverly bind up the carbon and oxygen leftovers that would be released as carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide.
Too bad this kind of stuff isn't used more....save the earth and all....human waste recycled just like anything we use....good stuff
peace
Quote from: Farrah Day on July 08, 2009, 04:44:06 AM
Not quite as simple as just pissing in an electrolyser though is it? Some thought and consideration has to be given to this - the first being that most home built electrolysers are common duct for hydrogen and oxygen, so-called HHO.
The chemistry is important as I don't believe we would be getting oxygen from urine. Rather we would be getting hydrogen and other unwanted, probably unpleasant gases which we would need to do something with (preferably not breathe). Furthermore, unlike an electrolyte in water that does not get used up, I believe we would soon be left with just water as the urea would actually get used up.
It will therefore be more complicated an electrolyser design than what most of us already have, plus there is the consideration of any toxic gases that may be evolved. So pissing in an open duct electrolyser and 'just doing it' might not be such a good idea until we know what else apart from H2 is evolved, and what the implications are.
That said, the efficiency of obtaining hydrogen this way would appear to be over 3 times that of standard electrolysis, which can't be a bad thing as long as we're not going to be poisoning the air we breathe.
EDIT
Nevermind
Seems it's hit some more news
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31805166//ns/technology_and_science-innovation&wid=18298287
so maybe this is really real
So a refrigirator sized unit "produces" 1kW, and a vehicle can run on [the technology] 90mpg.
That's a big of a big leap for my simple self. I'd be more interested to learn if the vehicle would carry urina as fuel, or would tank the product of the electrolysis, like a hydrogen fuel cell.
If the power in really is smaller by a significant amount that what a combustion engine would squueze out (at curent engine efficiency, I think it will be tight), the positive DIFFERENCE in power would be what our cars would run on, H from urine, on demand. I may over-simplify or invert it, but I think it's important to at least try and say things the way they are.
Yes this is very real, done by very real laboratory's
There is no oxygen in this so it can be compressed. This is Nitrogen and Hydrogen , everything else is left in solution.
The media will get abit carried away in assuming how this tech is used, Starting with the piss in your gas tank jokes.
BTW you dont need nickel plates. Most laboratory's stay away from stainless only because of the chromium content
Quote from RR
QuoteUrine would have to be separated from other human waste, which we don't normally do, so this seems a bit unpractical
No we certainly don't, and I certainly wouldn't but - and excuse my unlady-like language - we're only talking about pissing in an electrolyser... not shitting in it!
Only if you are doing Magnagas , but that is a different subject altogether :)
Again urine is about 95% water anyway. So if you use it you are not going to see huge gains in hydrogen output.
What you will see is abit of a slower burn due to the nitrogen content
see a bit of that up here in farmland, mostly ammonia and hydrogen though instead of nitrogen.
"EXAMPLE 2
Referring to FIG. 3, a cyclic voltammetry experiment demonstrates the electrolysis of urea and urine in an alkaline electrolyte composition. The alkaline electrolyte composition was 5 M potassium hydroxide, the anode was electrodeposited nickel on nickel gauze and the cathode was platinum foil. The cycling rate was 10 millivolts per second. The concentration of urea was 0.33 M, which is equivalent to an average concentration of urea in human urine. A baseline experiment was performed on the 5 M potassium hydroxide alone. The figure indicates that the electro-oxidation of urea and urine behave similarly. As such, the other contents of urine do not appear stop the electro-oxidation of urea.
Under the conditions existing in the above electrolytic cell, a hydrolysis reaction may occur. This would convert urea into ammonia and carbon dioxide. The hydrolysis pathway becomes favorable with increasing hydroxide salt concentration and increasing temperatures. For example, urea samples contained in 0 M, 1 M, 5 M and 7 M KOH at 50° C. for 89 hours produced 0.7%, 4.2%, 27.4% and 36.7% hydrolysis, respectively. A 7 M KOH sample of urea at 70° C. for only 24 hours provided over 95% hydrolysis. The hydrolysis reaction is shown in the following reaction.
CO(NH 2 ) 2 +H 2 Oâ†'2NH 3 â†'+CO 2 â†' (Overall Hydrolysis Reaction)
Thus, reaction conditions can be modified to promote NH 3 production over H 2 production using an applied voltage. In some instances, H 2 production will be preferred."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2009/0095636.html
ironhead, you almost made me spit out my soda. ;D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 09, 2009, 07:23:54 AM
ironhead, you almost made me spit out my soda. ;D
That would be a valueble (albeit slight) waste of urea. Glad you held that one in.
Group,
Experience from my youth with rabbits, it would be easy to
construct waste separating housing. You get meat, solid
fertilizer and now ENERGY!? !!! If memory serves???,
rabbit urine was concentrated. A pregnant cow if you could
capture the urine they release what seems like a gallon or
more each time they let go. Also extremely strong P smell...
+++++++
Everyone that says NOT to P in your booster cell is right.
First one side of each plate or other surface must be nickel
plated and the cell voltage must be reduced to 0.37 volts
will pulsing continue to increase efficiency? The frequency
will have to be determined. Then once the water electrolyte
is depleted of urea it will have to be removed.
So far sounds easy enough for anyone thats made a water
hho system... except now we can use galvanized maybe..
For those that want to use Human P, morning P is strongest.
I have my fingers crossed that we get CO out too!, 2/1 ratio
as its excellent medium compression engine fuel. Just mix all
with air and burn. The nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon monoxide
is like woodgas or producer gas BUT would seem clean from the
start UNLIKE woodgas or other producers.
Dave
Group,
I want to add that it takes one action with water
at 1.23volts across each cell to make ONE H2.
With urea its two H2 and maybe a CO per action.
At 0.37 volts. Energy requirement problem solved
If the old H2 way is/was "simply and energy carrier",
then this is a robust energy source! and its available
all the time.
A true and robust biofuel.
The waste water can go into any sewer in any city
and us rual folks can drop it in a ditch. no different
than a deer taking a P. and farmers can have two
collection ponds one for hi urea waste and the other
for the water thats had its urea removed....
Dave
Group,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cost+of+urea&btnG=Google+Search
Urea prices have fluctuated between $80 to $200/ton
(12 to 30 cents/gallon) in the last three years, the ADL
study shows.
http://www.icis.com/v2/chemicals/9076558/urea/pricing.html
well now thats cheap cheap as gas used to be a very
long time ago. Mix with water when its finished the water
will remain, ready to be mixed with more urea...
Its Not going to work on cars in the winter but it most certainly
would run a small generator the electrolyser can be in a 10ft
deep manhole so it stays cool and unfrozen...
Dave
For those of you want a nickle plated electrode try a nickle plated key blank from a grocery store.Don't let them cut it at all.
Both h2 and co are possible fuels.There may be no need to separate them when you want to burn them in a car.Since it takes only.037 volts to power the reaction all types of batteries could provide the power or the output of a crystal set radio(.04 volts was what I measured in my experiment).So I will do some simple experiments in the next week and post my results here.Triffid
I intend to use baking soda as a base and see what happens when I add some urine to it and run electricity through the electrodes.I might use aluminum wire as the electrodes since I have some on hand or copper wire or coathanger wire.Triffid
Drsparks,I raised rabbits for at least 5 years in okla.They certainly are pee and poop machines.I don't raise them here in texas.Too hot! I would lose them all.Triffid
Sorry guys I haven't done anything yet.I just hate to have jars of urine sitting around me right now,maybe next week.Triffid
Sorry guys,I can't stand to have jars of urine sitting around me.Guess I replused myself.I will not be doing anything with urine except flushing it down the toilet.Triffid
Quote from: triffid on August 27, 2009, 12:55:50 PM
Sorry guys,I can't stand to have jars of urine sitting around me.Guess I replused myself.I will not be doing anything with urine except flushing it down the toilet.Triffid
Triff,
My feelings exactly. I actually took one "leak" into a mason jar, then I had a change of heart. I kept thinking, 'what if the wife saw this and found out what I was doing?'
OH MAN!!! She would think that I was totally out of my mind. So I said to myself "forget it!"
So you're not the only one. :D
i am sure that it is just a combination of things about the urine that are giving you this effect... find out what it is and just add those items to the water... there is no need to pee in a jar... can imagine any health committee allowing such a device to be installed on a car anyway...
Urea: AKA plant food X.0.0 its cheap and not disgusting :D Mix it with water...
Dear RR2,Thanks for standing with me on this.I guess we are all potty trained to a point where what would my wife think?Or in my case what would my brother think?The more I thought about about it the more repulsed I got.Interesting.Triffid
Out of sight out of mind might work better?Let a machine do it.Split apart the urine in the spaceship away from the crew?Triffid