Ok,
I'm not sure that in 150 years someone has never thought of this, but seeing how Steorn is supposed to release their theory by the end of the year, I figured it best to put this idea out there in the public domain in case they are using the same principal.
At least this may leave some recourse for some builders to make devices without restrictions by their license fees.
The bad part is, now that this is posted, they could take this principal as their own and say this is what they were using all along!
Regardless, this is how it operates.
First let me say that there is a way to build an all magnet version but is a bit more difficult. The 3d software does suggest this to be possible based on the same principal and I will show how this could be done later. For now I will explain the electromagnetic version because this version is the one capable of producing large amounts of power for nothing!
The layout shows a parallel field created using an array of magnets, however, the field toward the center is more compressed and causes a detrimental condition to exist so this needs to be corrected by either expanding the inner field or compressing the outer field.
More energy can be gained by compressing the outer field to achieve the same density as shown in this layout.
Now, if you notice the small flat wound electromagnet in the layout, you will see that the field applied is at a point where it is balanced in both push and pull to either magnet face. This means that the coil is not attracted to either magnet set and that is would just set there.
In fact however, it will rotate because it has an applied tendency to twist and this twist is transferred to the center pivot point to cause rotation.
As the coil moves through the field, the field is exactly the same so nothing is changing from the coils point of view. This means that when the current is released from the coil, it will be in the same field as when the current was applied. This means that nearly all the current applied to energize the coil, can be recovered when the field collapses, except for a small amount lost to resistance.
This concept produces a large amount of torque that could easily produce the required energy for self operation.
Anyone building a pulse motor and recovering the fly back, could easily build the electromagnetic version of this motor.
Those who would like to see an all magnet version should look at the layout below.
Even though a field like the one generated in a single section of the electromagnetic layout would work, a modified field would give higher gain in an all magnet version.
In the below field, a small magnet would start at the point where the field lines merge (just left of the RH set of magnets) , and would be forced to the same point on the opposing magnet set. (just right of the LH set of magnets)
At the end position point the field is balanced and the small moving magnet can be rotated over with no force, and the same torque would drive the magnet back the other direction where it would again need to rotate over.
The energy gained traveling across the gap is far larger than the energy needed to rotate the small magnet in the balanced field so the device will bounce back and forth continually!
Hi lumen,
Would you show one drawing where the magnets are shown with their poles as needed and say if they cylinder or rectangular shaped ones? A drawing just without any flux lines, just with the magnets and its N and S poles.
I am bad at reading/knowing such details from your flux model pictures.
That way I could much better judge your shown setups.
Thanks,
Gyula
In this layout, the large magnets are 2 x 2 x .25 inches and the small disk is .75dia. x .25 thk in inches.
You can see the field direction and at the present position the center magnet is rotating CCW with a torque of .1 newton meter even though it is actually under a linear force to the right of .06 newtons.
The generated torque is able to raise the magnet to a position of higher energy by pulling itself further away from the attracting field.
The pivot center is 5.17 inches from the center of the disk magnet.
Quote from: lumen on November 07, 2009, 01:49:09 PM
Now, if you notice the small flat wound electromagnet in the layout, you will see that the field applied is at a point where it is balanced in both push and pull to either magnet face. This means that the coil is not attracted to either magnet set and that is would just set there.
In fact however, it will rotate because it has an applied tendency to twist and this twist is transferred to the center pivot point to cause rotation.
As the coil moves through the field, the field is exactly the same so nothing is changing from the coils point of view. This means that when the current is released from the coil, it will be in the same field as when the current was applied. This means that nearly all the current applied to energize the coil, can be recovered when the field collapses, except for a small amount lost to resistance.
This concept produces a large amount of torque that could easily produce the required energy for self operation.
@lumen
I hope I figured out correctly the poles in your magnet setups and as an example I reedited your constant+torque+field2.jpg to show it in a more practically-looking way (for me at least ;) ) and I attached it here.
Please have a look at it if the poles are correctly drawn? I also indicated the inner and outer magnet sets in green circles.
In your above quoted text you write as if the coil would move? I would think the coil is stationary and either the inner magnet set would turn anticlockwise on the inner disk and the outer magnet set would be also stationary or the inner magnet set would be stationary together with the coil too and the outer magnet set would turn clockwise, in both cases around the center red point.
Could you comment?
Thanks for the further drawings with the magnet sizes and the arrows.
rgds, Gyula
Yes, You are exactly correct!
The color adds a bit of detail in the design. You can have the magnets rotate as a set and that would make no difference in operation. In fact to increase power, you would add all 6 coils, one to each of the spaces.
In this design the coils would operate with a cycle of 30deg on time and 30deg off time.
Hi lumen,
Thanks for the answer, now is it better to say the flux moves around the coil once the coil is stationary.
I have worried till now on the terribly strong radial repel force between two facing inner and outer magnets (they are N-N and S-S when just facing) because this would mean the design has strong 'sticky' point but it occurred to me soon the other magnet pair diametrically on the opposite side of the setup just counter balances this huge repel force with a more or less similar repel force, so basically just a small cogging / bumping effect should be experienced in practice if there are small differences in the individual magnet flux strengths. Unfortunately, the more difference there are between the magnet strengths, the more input power will be needed to operate this motor, (i.e. to help go the rotor through the sticky points) and the higher will be the cogging effect. Agree?
I think you may have thought of using air core coils, maybe in pancake shape and yes I also agree with using six of them in this setup shown. Though in this symmetrical case with the six coils, maybe soft iron cores could also be used in the coils, they would not increase cogging but a little. The position of the coils insures this design makes use of both poles of a pulse coil, not all pulse motor utilizes this torque increasing possibility and this comes at no input power cost.
Maybe you have managed to build a prototype already, I wonder.
What COP do you think this setup may have, can it be judged theoritically?
I do guess it depends on the permanent magnets type and size and also on the distance (air gap) between the inner and outer magnet sets.
If you do not agree with any of my reasonings please tell.
rgds, Gyula
All the inner magnets should all be the same and all the outer magnets should be the same, with the outer about 1/3 thicker than the inner. This keeps the balanced field path in line with the coil location.
The advantage over a regular pulse motor is that the coil never fights the field. The field is the same when the coil is energized as it is when it is released so virtually all the power used can be reclaimed when running at a resonate RPM. Additional load on the rotor could never increase the current draw!
Think if the coil was actually another magnet that could pivot on an axis in line with the field lines, and was rotated 90 degrees as it passed through the other magnets, then back again after it passes the magnet pairs.
This pivoting magnet may require just a bit to rotate it 90 degrees but this could be recovered when it rotates back because the field is the same.
This would now operate totally by itself! Without any power!
This is just to easy to make work!
Dear lumen!
What is so big deal to show 8 current curring rings and what's so big deal in OU after that????????? More to come??? To be not rough man, what does your FEMM simulation show????? This is all done in any electromotror BTW...
QuoteThis is all done in any electromotror BTW...
Actually it's not!
In any common motor as the coils are energized, they move to another location where the field has changed. This means that unrecoverable energy was spent doing work.
This motor leaves the coils in the same field polarity and potential as they were when they where energized. This means virtually all the energy can be recovered but work was still done!
All the work but without the cost!
Quote from: lumen on November 09, 2009, 07:31:11 PM
Actually it's not!
In any common motor as the coils are energized, they move to another location where the field has changed. This means that unrecoverable energy was spent doing work.
This motor leaves the coils in the same field polarity and potential as they were when they where energized. This means virtually all the energy can be recovered but work was still done!
All the work but without the cost!
No way! You are talking about something like a synchronous motor, maybe a one called a variable reluctance motor. Is it?? The second thing... mmm.. there is a Lentz law... so you or invetor means accumulating back-emf??? Is it???
QuoteThe second thing... mmm.. there is a Lentz law
Yes.... Lenz's law.
Well it does exist in all coils and is what will actually give the back EMF when the coil collapses.
So If I put in "X current" and get back "X current" + work done, then Lenz's law did not actually cause a problem.
The problem with most motors is when the coil collapses, it is in a different field state (lower) then when it was energized. This is typical of the standard motor, it is how work gets done!
This design does not fall into this problem. Lenz's law will assure nearly all the energy applied will be returned on the collapsing field.
Additionally, this motor would not produce current if rotated through the balanced field so it cannot be a generator. If no field changes in the coil, no voltage is generated so no generator. This also means as a motor, no increase in current with increased load.
Once you understand the concept of operation, you will see several other designs using the symmetrical balanced field that can be built with greater power. Even some ALL magnet designs!
OU? This is only the beginning, I'm sure of it!
Lumen
Thanks for the further comments. I wonder if you are already in the building state for any of your setups shown? Unfortunately my circumstances at present are not good for tinkering, only at a later time.
rgds, Gyula
Gyula
I have not yet started any work on the electromagnet design. I have been mostly working on the all magnet version trying to find the optimal path to get the highest gain.
The best I have been able to get so far is about 2 to 1. That is , it requires 1/2 the work to position the magnets as the energy gained from the rotation.
This seems to be about the best condition that I can get so far in the simulator. I can see other ways that would seem to be better but for now 2 to 1.
I have all the machines to build a test device, but I need to try to get the best gain possible or at least understand the best method to do so.
Soon!
Interesting but you clearly overlook some very important parameters that stops this from working.
There is no existing electromagnet or any air coil capable of generating the strong field you
really need to overcome the forces from neodymium magnets in efficient overunity mode.
In a regular motor the coils/EM's doesn't have to push or pull neodymium's very hard.
This is handled by the sheer core alloy attraction between poles and the work to push
the rotormagnets from one pole to another is only determined by the cogging resistance.
Further more...the field from electromagnets is weak and not emitted strongly like neos.
This has to do with the molecular structure of the core alloy in regular room temperature.
The flux lines generated always take the shortest path and returns through the core instead
of leaving the surface. This is why electromagnets have very low flux levels on the surface.
If you were to supercool the electromagnet down to superconducting state this changes.
In superconducting state the flux cannot return through the core and it's emitted like a neo.
But on the other hand, supercooled electromagnets are very sensitive for alternating flux
and will jump out of superconducting state as soon as the rotormagnets move the flux lines.
Thirdly....The rotormagnet is heavily attracted to the EM core (if moved there by hand) and
the attraction will force the rotor being stuck in this position, right between the statormagnets.
If you somehow could repel the rotor magnet away from the core then you face the problem
of distance. As soon as you leave the EM core surface there is no flux lines to push the rotor
further away from the electromagnet and it will get stuck close beside the EM core.
Not to mention that both sides (N & S) of the rotormagnet is facing the electromagnet.
How will you pulse it? Any pulse will attract one side and repel the other. It won't move.
Last but not least....The rotormagnets will get stuck just after or before the statormagnets where
the highest level of attraction between magnets is obtained. And the EM has no influence on this.
You will be able to push the rotormagnet back and forth on each side of the statormagnet by sheer
hand force but there is no way the electromagnet can influence the rotor on that great distance.
Conclusion: There is simply to much air in this design to make it spinn.
Quote from: lumen on November 09, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Yes, You are exactly correct!
Thank you for being so understanding. :D
I'm not here to contest negative perceived ideas.... or maybe some negative comments are good!
QuoteThere is no existing electromagnet or any air coil capable of generating the strong field you
really need to overcome the forces from neodymium magnets in efficient overunity mode.
Over unity mode? I need to study up on that...
Actually, it works best if the field from the coil is small and does not distort the main circular field generated by the large magnets. The unit does not produce the large power of a PM motor. The idea is that the power that it generates is greater than the input!
Think of this, If you place a neodymium magnet in a block of Styrofoam and float it in a plastic container of water, you would see it rotate very quickly to align to the earths field. (very weak field lots of air too)
In spite of the rapid rotation, the block will not try to move to either pole of the earth! This is because both fields of the magnet are in the same field. This causes one side to pull and the other side to push.
Now, if you connect a small stick out one side to work as a pivot arm, you will see that the earths field will now cause the magnet rotate about the pivot point because the torque is transferred to a rotational center.
This is what this motor is based on! If you produce a circular field that is actually way stronger than the earths field. One could build a rotor that will rotate to align itself with that field even if the field is an endless circular path.
So if you consider that 4,000 miles of air can still produce enough torque to rotate the magnet in the water very quickly, it seems that about 1/2 inch of air space would still apply about a thousands time more torque. (just guessing though)
I would think you may want to understand that the ONLY method to gain any energy form magnets, is down a path that does not cut lines of force. Because every line of force you break to do work is one more you need to go back through to get back to the start, and this requires work.
Use only the torque of a parallel field to do work! Unless you want to pay the price.
Maybe this is meant for another thread and if so I appologize up front.
I've been working the all magnet concept for over two years with little to show for it except for a large number of Neo's and ceramics which make it into every conceivable configuration...
I have one obstacle, as do you, and it's the sticky point. So my question is this...
with two N facing magnets approcahing each other, is it not possible to wind a flat (or any shape for that matter) core shield and pulse it with the magnets resonant Freq. (or some other freq.) to, in effect, negate the repulsive action thereby allowing the magnets free flow past to the point of repulsion?
My question precedes my experiment.
Quoteis it not possible to wind a flat (or any shape for that matter) core shield and pulse it with the magnets resonant Freq. (or some other freq.) to, in effect, negate the repulsive action thereby allowing the magnets free flow past to the point of repulsion?
Yes, this does work and has been done many times. The problem is it TAKES energy to neutralize the repelling field that you cannot get back.
This is because if you try to recover the energy of the coils collapsing field, the coil is now in a different field than what it was when it was energized and the return is now less!
If this field had not changed, then the return would of been almost identical.
But the principal does make a motor, just not a good one.
Quote from: lumen on November 11, 2009, 06:18:29 PM
I'm not here to contest negative perceived ideas.... or maybe some negative comments are good!
I'm not being negative. I just serve you some real world facts that are often overlooked when
trying to make an overunity motor. Knowledge is aways better than ignorance.
Without knowledge you will run into the same show stoppers as all OU inventors before you.
But if you have the advantage of magnetic knowledge you might find a way to reach your goal.
You must not fight or force your design into something that can't possibly work.
Instead you must find a way to use the existing rules and make good use of the available forces.
The best way is to start some simple test setups of your design and you will learn a lot of what to avoid.
You could build one sixth part of your motor using only two statormagnets, one rotormagnet and electromagnet.
This could be built quickly and show you how real world forces operate, e.g the limitations of EM vs Neos.
Once you have the facts you can either build an advanced tweaked version of your motor or perhaps
something completely else based on your freshly gained knowledge.
Quote from: lumen on November 09, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Yes, You are exactly correct!
Thankyou for being so understanding once again. :D
Hi Lumen,
Still trying to digest the setup of your 6 x 6 magnet ring, picture constant+torque+field2_mod.jpg and I did the following small experiment.
I took two N36 grade cylinder magnets (diameter: 18mm, thickness 5mm) in my hands and arranged them as one be a stator fixed in my left hand and the other as the rotor in my right hand, just like for instance the two magnets shown at the 9 o'clock position in the above drawing.
I slowly approached the right hand side magnet from below to upwards, passing the facing position and beyond. I clearly felt the following forces:
1) on approach from below the 9 o'clock position (say, starting the rotor magnet from the 8 o'clock position) there was an increasing definite pulling force (I mean from the rotor point of view) RADIALLY outside towards the stator magnet and a very small force towards the clockwise (the desired) rotor rotational direction
2) I found a point where this strong pull was at the maximum, pointing radially out, and slightly beyond this point an ever increasing repel force started with respect to the still clockwise wanted rotation
3) the maximum repel force was reached at the position, when the two magnets were face to face
4) forcing the rotor magnet further on in the clockwise direction I felt again the pulling force acting radially on the rotor magnet, like in step 1)
All in all there are three sticky points for all the 6 magnet pairs, two strong radially attract forces with a strong repel force in-between. And all these forces should be considered twice as they occur twice simultaneously. (I mean for instance the magnet pair at 9 o'clock and its "mirror" at the 3 o'clock position and so on for the other pairs, alltogether any sticky point counts 6 times as stronger, unfortunately.)
I think a huge amount of input power would be needed to defeat these sticky points, so this design needs some redesigning.
Thanks, Gyula
Gyula,
That is about correct, there is a very strong force as the magnet crosses the gap. That is why it is an electromagnet!
It must be off when passing through the gap. A coil would not see the gap as a sticky point even if it used a steel core.
There would only be an attraction as approaching and the same attraction after passing and so would appear neutral.
The all magnet version must stay between the two magnet faces. Then the moving magnet would flip over while in the center of the larger magnet at a balanced point as to not require any energy. (or as little as possible)
This would reverse the direction and would then just oscillate between the two magnet faces.
An all magnet motor built this way could not produce much energy because it would not be a continuous path. The constant start and stop operation would limit energy output.
The rotary version requires an electromagnet and you also must recover the energy from the collapsing field to operate OU.
Lumen,
Thanks but I do not fully get you, you mean the magnet crossing the gap is an electromagnet? then I surely missed your setup how you thought.
And you mean that either the outer or the inner set of magnets should be electromagnets or you mean both sets are permanent magnets as in my referred drawing (drawn from your model) and you place 6 electromagnets between the middle edge positions?
In this latter case a very high input power is neeed for this setup to operate, considering the two radially attracting and one radially repelling forces for each permanent magnet pair. I would appreciate another drawing just showing the one perm magnet pair and the electromagnet or if this is not how you think then the one as you think, lol :)
hopefully you understand where I am lost in your setup?
rgds, Gyula
You have it correct in the colored layout that you did with the single coil. You already have it marked correctly also.
It's just that ALL the other magnets rotate together on one rotor.
You also believe it to take a large amount of power to affect the rotor? If power is applied just after passing the coil, there is a very strong field at this point that it pushes from. Only in the midpoint is the field weak. This does not create a problem because the spacing could be decreased if required.
Ideally, the coil will be energized with a 50% duty cycle at an RPM that is at a resonant frequency so the dead area at the mid point is not critical.
I have only been working on the ALL magnet version of this and have not yet expanded into the electromagnetic layout. This information is to explore this concept and not to be taken as a complete working assembly!
I will however post a fully operational plan if it does achieve the desired results.
Quote from: lumen on November 15, 2009, 07:39:47 PM
Ideally, the coil will be energized with a 50% duty cycle at an RPM that is at a resonant frequency so the dead area at the mid point is not critical.
If you plan any magnet motor where you use 50% duty cycle you can forget about the chance of reaching overunity.
I'm going to make you a little comparison for you to understand the forces somewhat better.
1) The regular 10mm thick N42 NdFeb is similar in electromagnetic strength as an electromagnet wound 11000 turns
and using 1amp of current in
super cooled state. This translates to 11000 ampturns. At 2cm it is 22000 ampturns.
2) When your neo enters/passes the electromagnet it induces a voltage. The stronger the electromagnet the
higher the induced voltage. If you need a 10 amp pulse in a e.g 2 ohm electromagnet to run your motor this comes to 200W.
At 50% duty cycle you are using 100W per pulse. But this is without the induced voltage.
If the passing neo induces, let's say, 100V at a certain RPM (the voltage increases by the RPM) then you need to pulse
your electromagnet 10A x 2R = 20V + 100V induced = 120V x 10A = 1200W at 50% = 600W
WOW.....now you need 600W instead of 100W input just because of the induced voltage.
Don't ever think you can get away with less amount of current in your electromagnet.
I have built several and it takes 15000-20000 ampturns to get a reasonable strength and this is still far, far away from any neo.
The electromagnet ampturn = the number of turns times the current passing through.
If you design your EM by using a high number of turns to decrease the current needed you face extremely high inductance to
energize (this takes time and power) not to speak of the induced voltage reaching perhaps 1000V at each passage.
I'm not trying to be rude, tell you lies or fool you in any way. This is pure facts that must be dealt with in all designs.
Most people don't even know about the induced voltage and they get surprised when their motors consumes a lot
more than they ever expected in their ignorant dreams.
Fatchance,
Sure, I understand that, but again you are fighting the field in other designs by attracting or repelling from your coil.
This design should not fight the field at any point along it's path or you are defeating the concept.
I say a 50% duty cycle because that is what you would get at a resonate frequency anyway. Operating at a resonate frequency with a 1/2 wave input would allow it go into a high impedance state that would draw virtually no power!
Because you are not fighting any existing field direction, the coil does not need high current to establish it's magnetic field. Only about the same as if it were operating in open air!
When your coils are applied an increasing frequency, they will eventually reach a resonate point where the current drops to near zero.
Ok, sounds good.
I wish you the best of luck and progress in your design.