I am trying to get some prototype toroids machine wound.
As most of you here have much more experience with JT's than I, would you please list the exact specs of the toroids if you were to be able to have them machine wound? Like the dream toroid.
This would be the primary JT toroid bifilar. Probably like .75 inch OD
Material
Wire thickness
# of windings.
Please keep in mind we do not need to be practical here. Not many people will wind 1000 turns... but these machines will do it in minutes!
I will be looking for like three to begin with. Then testing. I will mass produce the final ones if anybody wants some... I am very lucky to have a manufacturer right in my home town who is willing to work with me. Please allow me to pass this advantage to the community as well.
I am meeting with them next week.
Thanks in advance.
UZ
Quote from: unzapped on January 08, 2010, 11:00:06 AM
I am trying to get some prototype toroids machine wound.
As most of you here have much more experience with JT's than I, would you please list the exact specs of the toroids if you were to be able to have them machine wound? Like the dream toroid.
This would be the primary JT toroid bifilar. Probably like .75 inch OD
Material
Wire thickness
# of windings.
Please keep in mind we do not need to be practical here. Not many people will wind 1000 turns... but these machines will do it in minutes!
I will be looking for like three to begin with. Then testing. I will mass produce the final ones if anybody wants some... I am very lucky to have a manufacturer right in my home town who is willing to work with me. Please allow me to pass this advantage to the community as well.
I am meeting with them next week.
Thanks in advance.
UZ
I doubt that you will get many responses on this.
For one thing.....there is no ideal toroid.
What works great for one application might not work well at all for another.
The people that are building would probably rather build than spend time rewriting what they have already posted .
All the details you are looking for are already here.
It just takes a little digging
Another point.
Does your manufacturer have access to the exact same toroids that people are using here?
A JT with the same wire and windings made with a different toroid will probably perform much differently
To make a perfect JT you have to get to know your toroid
You have to know it enough to be able to predict about what voltage you will get with a particular number of windings.
If I was in your place I would get some toroids from your friend......then I would start building .....
I think I would start a new thread .......so when I did go to sell them I would not have to ask people to read 1000 pages to understand what is going on.
I would pick a project and see how well I could get it done with the toroids your friend has available.
For example ....... a Jeanna light might be a good project.
I think a Jeanna light could be made with a smaller toroiod than the " official Jeanna light.
I would document the entire procerss on the new thread.......including how long each new version will light a CFL then ..... when I had it working really well........ then I see no reason that it could not be sold ...........maybe as a kit on ebay
gary
Quote from: resonanceman on January 09, 2010, 06:30:01 PM
I doubt that you will get many responses on this.
For one thing.....there is no ideal toroid.
What works great for one application might not work well at all for another.
The people that are building would probably rather build than spend time rewriting what they have already posted .
All the details you are looking for are already here.
It just takes a little digging
Another point.
Does your manufacturer have access to the exact same toroids that people are using here?
A JT with the same wire and windings made with a different toroid will probably perform much differently
I make a perfect JT you have to get to know your toroid
You have to know it enough to be able to predict about what voltage you will get with a particular number of windings.
If I was in your place I would get some toroids from your friend......then I would start building .....
I think I would start a new thread .......so when I did go to sell them I would not have to ask people to read 1000 pages to understand what is going on.
I would pick a project and see how well I could get it done with the toroids your friend has available.
For example ....... a Jeanna light might be a good project.
I think a Jeanna light could be made with a smaller toroiod than the " official Jeanna light.
I would document the entire procerss on the new thread.......including how long each new version will light a CFL then ..... when I had it working really well........ then I see no reason that it could not be sold ...........maybe as a kit on ebay
gary
Unzapped
I thought about it a few minutes.
Are you able to market your prewound toroid?
I Think it would be great if you could put together a kit for a Jeanna light or something.
If I was not into making JTs I would think about getting one........provided I could see that it worked.
So to me ....... documenting the whole process is key.
I was planning on building a few versions of the Jeanna light this week ... so I will be posting my findings.
Anyway
I can not tell you how to do it .............but if you do it remotely lilke I have described it I think it would be great .
And it would be a great way to get the word out that there is more to energy than we have been taught.
gary
Hi . I have to agree with gary . I have hand wound 100's of torroids . Most are just different . Right now our jT Group is trying to use the same torroids like goldmine 5 for $1 or the torroids that we know get high volts from Mag-inc for free samples . Almost every torroid even the same can have different results as i have see . i have 60 gold mine torroids and i find the same windings on the same toroids using the same wire and parts have different results so its just a matter of experimenters touch and go .
Albert
Hi Gadget,
I would like to say something about the toroids we have been using.
Those ones we get from goldmine have a great deal of variance which may be the very reason they are at the goldmine and not at a bonafide distributor.
They may be from a heap of same size unknown permeability kind of thing.
I have never like them and maybe that is because the 5 I got were all lower permeability than some that you got.
I am hoping that if we can standardize this a little we will get more consistent results.
This is the reason I was talking to MMI
Mouser sells a smaller kind with an actual permeability as part of the description.
Unzapped, can you get 11,000 permeability?
This is the number you need to ask for from your friend.
It will be in a ferrite and not in the epoxied powdered kind.
I just got a small burn from the end of my secondary!!
I might be getting somewhere... not that I like getting burned, but... :D
thank you,
jeanna
unzapped:
I have to agree with all of the other responses you have received thus far. Now I just got done winding a 3/38" OD toroid with 330 winds of 28 ga. mag. wire and if someone has a toroid winding machine that could have done that in minutes instead of all the hours it took me, that would be a good thing.
Like Jeanna said, if someone offered a kit with the large toroids, or any tested toroid that worked with the Jeanna Light circuit, then I am sure some folks would buy pre-wound toroids. At least pre-wound with the large number winds of the pick-up coil. (In this case, 330) the other winds are no problem for folks and only take a few minutes and, by varying the base turns and the collector turns by the builder, it gives more flexibility to the project. So, I agree that a kit, or partial kit for the Jeanna Light with the high turns pre-wound would be the way to go...at least for a start.
Bill
@all this dialog is exactly the information I was looking for... Lets start with the perfect jeanna light coil. 11,000 permeability, diameter?, ferrite core only, 330 turn secondary (guage?), 11 turn primary (guage?).
I know I could look through thousands of pages to "get close" But I want something consistant.
I am sure I can get whatever is available.
My goal is not to mass produce toroids. But to create sellable kits... Like my Unzapped Cell.
I would also like to produce a jeanna light kit, and possibly a candle powered emergency light. All three will need different toroids. But I think they will all mostly be the same... less turn on secondary, etc...
Maybe even eventually battery reviver.
BTW I have been digging for hours now trying to find the jeanna light circuit... could someone please post a link to one for me...
Thanks
UZ
unzapped:
Here is the link to Lidmotor's Jeanna Light video. In the beginning, he shows a good still shot of the circuit. This is what I used, more or less, for my replication:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w
I am sure Jeanna can give you links to her actual circuit diagrams...I am sure they are somewhere, but I don't know what page.
Bill
Quote from: unzapped on January 10, 2010, 03:05:25 PM
@all this dialog is exactly the information I was looking for... Lets start with the perfect jeanna light coil. 11,000 permeability, diameter?,
I used the OW48613TC from MMI.
It is 3.35 inches OD (86==86mmOD x 13mm=height)
Other companies make these and maybe your friend's company has some too.
I have another that works which is OW46113TC and it is 2 1/2 inches and 13mm height.
The permeability of the W is around 14,000 on this one and for some reason that has to do with OD this matters, but I dunno.
Quote
ferrite core only, 330 turn secondary (guage?)
I used 28 awg.
Lidmotor used radioshack red which is awg 30. I prefer not to use the rs red for these because the varnish is too thin and breaks occur too easily. One break in the varnish and your coil has a lower voltage. And to make it worse, the spark may be sooo small you cannot see it.
Quote, 11 turn primary (guage?).
The gauge I use is awg 24
On the big ones I use telephone 24 g wire with its thick plastic coating.
On dressed up tiny little ones I use awg24 varnished wire.
It IS possible that the amps draw will change with a fatter or thinner wire.
..
Quote
My goal is not to mass produce toroids. But to create sellable kits... Like my Unzapped Cell.
This is so wonderful
I could ask also if you were interested in stocking the toroids for us(=experimenters) to buy from you unwound, because we are faced with a $30 minimum for a toroid purchase from the MMI distributor that I found .
QuoteI would also like to produce a jeanna light kit, and possibly a candle powered emergency light. All three will need different toroids. But I think they will all mostly be the same... less turn on secondary, etc...
Maybe even eventually battery reviver.
Oh how the world can change! yeay!!
QuoteBTW I have been digging for hours now trying to find the jeanna light circuit... could someone please post a link to one for me...
Here is the most basic version on my desktop.
Bill just gave the specs and here is how it can be drawn.
I believe it is what you need.
Remember to remove that light between the C and E of the transistor after you find that the circuit is soldered properly.
The only lights should be between the wires of the secondary.
Start with 3 turns only, when checking a new toroid.
Expect about 7v for each led and remember there is often a polarity with the secondary.
thank you,
jeanna
Perfect !! Thank you so much! I have found this circuit jeanna! I am lighting my generic single LED flashlight with it (unzapped cell) Thing has been running for DAYS from the secondary HAHA!
I will be sourcing the torids this week. Also... I can have the secondaries pre wound... leaving only the primary to wind by hand... This could be nice.
Thanks!
UZ
Nice,
Have them leave about 1/5 of the toroid unwound max.
It is safer to leave 1/4 but with a small toroid, there are limitations.
Cool!
Are they willing to make you machine wound samples so readily?
That is very convenient.
And there is a big difference in the transistors.
The flashlights do best with the 2N2222 or 2N3904. They do best because they use the least amount of mA from the battery.
The power to get the super high volts comes from the TIP3055 or the TIP31. (I think the 31 uses less mA.) All of these are available from radioshack, so see which ones your local one carries for now.
Also in the end you use a plain resistor, but for now it is best to use a pot. rs has 2k pots, I think.
Well they have enormous ones but a 1K pot is the best for this, and when you get it right which will be different with each set-up, then you can put in a regular one for the kit.
I am having a really fun time with the LoA 20leds bulbs. They are a lot brighter than the cfl and easier to start.
These are rated as 40w equivalent, but theylie. Really they are about 20w equivalent (in the wall).
I am making a video now so I will check back.
jeanna
I can read loud and clear "101 is not the place for posting questions"
but then scroll down to keep reading and completely forget where I am,
and start asking questions. I appologize for that.
So I'm over here now and not sure where to ask.
But I don't want to start a new thread for this, so the question is,
Large Ferrite Rings, or Toroids, seem to be difficult to find.
Can I just use a large ferrite ring magnet? or a small one for that matter?
Becuase I have a lot of those laying around.
I was a big fan of the board game "Mouse Trap" and still like that stuff,
but Solid State deffinitly has it's advantages. I'd like to dabble in both.
Thank you.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 22, 2010, 08:22:26 PM
...
So I'm over here now and not sure where to ask.
..... so the question is,
Large Ferrite Rings, or Toroids, seem to be difficult to find.
Can I just use a large ferrite ring magnet? or a small one for that matter?
Becuase I have a lot of those laying around.
...
Is there a reason you have not tried this?
My answer is always... there is only one way to know.
The large toroids are not necessary in any way.
They might be if you want to get over 800 volts, but so far, I have a 3/4 inch toroid that is getting me 600-800spiky volts.
That is in part because I am using the heftier transistor.
Those draw more amps into circulation and it is my speculation that this is why they get higher volts.
The circuit made with the same toroid and everything else but with a 2N3904, or 2N2222 will only get 250v. Now that is still enough to light a neon.
And, I will say it took me nearly a year to get good enough to wind it to get that.
BUT...
If you use the leds in parallel and mix a little series in there, you can both protect the leds and light many with high frequency looow volts.
See my globe lamp video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KxE_87MLs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KxE_87MLs) which uses 24 leds soldered in a series string of 6 with each led having 3 other leds spldered to it making each led the same as 4, therefore there are 6 leds with the brightness of 24.
Carry that to another level, if you make one with 50 leds you will have the light equivalent of a 50 watt light bulb, that runs for 12 hours on a single AAA battery or much longer on a AA.
Just start.
You need the practice.
I say that because everyone needs the practice.
And please have fun!!,
jeanna
Thanks for reply Jeanna,
Haven't tried any of it yet. Reason being, a low budget, I want to know what I need
before ordering things I wont need or use long, also have too many projects going ;0(
Ok, and unlike a regular transformer, which shouldn't work with straight DC anyway,
this not only spikes to mimic a pulsing, allowing transformer type action to occure
with DC, but it then takes on it's own strange behavior so that voltage really isn't
governed by the number of turns? Or am I misunderstanding?
In other words, If I want a larger Ferrite ring for more amps, but only give it a 2:1 ratio
of turns, it could still quaduple, or what ever it wants as far as voltage, because the
voltage is recycled back EMF spiking echo? How can I controll the voltage with these
larger ferrite rings? Or can I get a steady voltage of 250 and then just use a step down
transformer to acheive a steady but beefy 12 volts ?
That is, power it with a 12 volt battery, "it" being between 12v power supply and a 12v
electric motor, spiking and hissing,whatever, step it back down to 12 volts, and have
more amps that I started with?, ...to run that motor?
Also, when a transistor is used as a switch, does that mean it is turning on and off rapidly?,
repeatedly? By itself?
And if so, is a Relay similar? How does a Relay differ? Can a Relay be used to pulse DC
so it can be stepped down by a transformer? That's my impression though factory spec sheet
was not very clear.
And because te circuit is spiking, it will work with a transformer, regardless?
No need to further pulse the DC with Relays, etc?
Ok, what is causing the spiking? The whole combo, or certain components of the circuit?
If I remove either the Resistor, or the Transistor, or both, will it still spike or pulse somewhat
due to the wire turn configuration? (Will a secondary used as a transformer still work?)
Do these components come in big size? Same names? Where?
Bottom line is, I want to run an electric car, with half the batteries, etc..
er? ...like, forever. ;-P
Thanks.
OK, great, and I am right there with you.
The only way to get a handle on this is to get your hands on it.
It would be like watching an advanced art video with special brushes that have techniques that are different from basic brush techniques, but you never picked up a regular brush.
You do not need to do this much, but it really helps to understand what the heck someone is saying.
I will take your q's :
QuoteReason being, a low budget
Did you see my little thing on jt 101 about using the cfl inside toroid?
This is cheap or free depending on if you have any cfl's on hand or if a neighbor is throwing one away.
Quote
also have too many projects going ;0(
I can relate to that one.
QuoteOk, and unlike a regular transformer, which shouldn't work with straight DC anyway,
this not only spikes to mimic a pulsing, allowing transformer type action to occur
Almost.
The spikes are the result of the pulses and the pulses are the result of the center tapped toroid.
The spikes are normally filtered out and so there is scarcely any info on them.
If you call them bemf, some people feel they must correct you.
If you can, watch the lecture 16 from MIT physics 802 taught by Walter Lewin.
He is a great teacher and he can explain the regular thing and why.
The back spikes happen as a result of lenz law when it is all turning around at the moment the transistor turns off, but then turns on again.
Quotethat voltage really isn't
governed by the number of turns?
One of the factors that adds to the level of the voltage is the number of turns.
Another is the speed of the switching. [again walter lewin lecture 16]
QuoteIn other words, If I want a larger Ferrite ring for more amps,...
... then just use a step down
transformer to acheive a steady but beefy 12 volts ?
Here I would refer you to Bill Beaty on amps. His is the closest I know of to what I realized a year ago.
You must stop thinking you need amps.
Amps is a rate of joules per second going either way on a wire.
It does not matter which direction nor how often the direction changes, it is a rate of joules passing a point in time.
So, in a dc set up, it all goes one way, and you lose it all. Like water over a waterfall. Once it is down, you need to haul it back up.
But if you picture a beach wave, and capturing the motion of the same amount of water moving both ways, you can see it is your choice...
You can capture the water going over the falls, or going back and forth. It is much cheaper and easier to use the waves.
Quote...., and have
more amps that I started with?, ...to run that motor?
Check out bedini. He got it, and you can too. His is not a joule thief, but close, so check it out.
QuoteAlso, when a transistor is used as a switch, does that mean it is turning on and off rapidly?,
repeatedly?
yes
QuoteBy itself?
no. xee2 described this very well. I am sure he will be happy to repeat it on the jt thread.
Relays are more mechanical, even though they are electromagnetic, they physically move the bar open and closed, noisy too.
Quote...
If I remove either the Resistor, or the Transistor, or both, will it still spike or pulse somewhat
due to the wire turn configuration? (Will a secondary used as a transformer still work?)
This is why I am trying to understand the mag amp. So far, no smiles, but I am persistent.
It is possible, I just do not know how...yet.
I hope some of this helps either you or someone else who happens to read this.
But, really... make a simple joule thief then make another one with a secondary as I described in the post on jt101 last night, then go from there.
You will have 2 very useful things. They are not JUST an exercise. You can use both of them for different purposes.
But this will get you started.
And, thanks for asking these questions.
jeanna
Ok noisey Relay opens and shuts, but does so fast
and repeatedly, like the transistor? or fast enough to
allow DC to jump on the Transformer band wagon?
(I keep bringing up DC because I have a sorce of DC)
It is very high amp but only 1/2 volt, I'm told capacitor
spark gap may be my best bet for pulsing it in prep for
transfomrer. (Source is a Faraday Disc)
But that's a nother project. Also with Direct Current
I pictured a river running in a large circle with no falls, ha.
Or a river running to the ocean, but somehow the water
returns to the place of orgin, year after year, as it does.
Or, sort of a very slow alternating between two batteries,
or a much faster similar using a Tesla switch, Recycled DC.
As for Current it self, and my obsession with it.
Well, I'm from thinking Voltage x Amps = Watts.
And for me, an easy way to semi-calculate power,
is to invision how many 100 watt bulbs I can light up.
Or transforming it all back to 120 volts at ? amps,
gives me an idea of how much power I'm looking at
or what I can do with it in every day use.
As I learn more I should shed those old habbits I guess.
However I am aware of the power of HV in miliamps too.
I have read that electromagnets made of 36 to 39 awg tripple coat wire
encased in resin (for durability) using only 600 volts of miliamp power
created a repelling force of such violence when two opposed each other
with North poles, that a poweful electric motor could be made from them.
These do not need a continuous 600v 400mA, like a fluorescent light might,
but only a quick zap of 600v 400mA, triggered by a reed?, once per revolution.
From what I am reading here, I can acheive this with a AA battery?
Sweet Mother of Nikola
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 23, 2010, 05:32:18 PM
Ok noisey Relay opens and shuts, but does so fast
and repeatedly, like the transistor? or fast enough to
allow DC to jump on the Transformer band wagon?
A relay only opens and closes when the electricity is turned on and turned off. Something or someone has to do this. Transistors will operate at much higher frequencies than a mechanical device like a relay ever could. One of my Bedini motors goes well over 16,000 rpm, try doing that with reed switches and a relay. Other folks have them turning over 300,000 rpm...very fast.
Some transistors also operate on very low input levels like .2 volts or so. (Germanium) This is very important in some of the circuits folks are working with. All of the relays I know about take much more just to operate at all.
Jeanna has given you some good advice here, especially about the Walter Lewin lecture series.
Bill
QuoteFrom what I am reading here, I can acheive this with a AA battery?
Sweet Mother of Nikola
I think so.
I like that name. ;)
I think your description of the lake where the waves return is ac or what I mean by it.
Is your source of dc a waterfall?
If it is, then you need not bother with all this unless there is an unexpected earth upheaval.
Where is this interesting example that you describe?
I would like to read more about that electromagnet,
unless it is standard hi amp electromagnet, because this is just the old plan.
jeanna
This is a video from lidmotor where he uses a joule thief primary to make a bedini type charger.
There are many elements to this one, but it is all presented in lidmotor's clear style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8Thvyr2zI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8Thvyr2zI)
jeanna
.
Thank you Bill
Wow, 300,000 rpm? Does it levitate? Imagine if it were a
copper disc, if I could get my Faraday disc to even 16k RPM.
Germanium/ Lewin, ...will look.
Jeanna
I read about the HV electromagnets in something my neighbor
got from Creative Science.
This one is much higher volatage (5000) but at only 1-4 amps
http://www.fuellesspower.com/high_voltage_electromagnets2.htm
Either I remember wrong, or their original plans were flawed.
Either way, where there's a will, there's a way.
Bigger Joule Thief on a 12 volt battery, could acheive 5kv @ 1A
I have faith in you.
Update
It is a PDF file from Creative Science, claiming it is #27 wire
using between 300 to 1000 volts, in the miliamps.
This is like five years old, if the info is wrong a refund for
neighbor is in order, though he too violated trust by sharing
the "top secret" plans with me.
Quote:
"How it works, the fueless engine uses high voltage AC @ 60 khz
300 to 1000 volts, in the miliamps, the VH is then converted to
DC through a series of diodes which are rated at twice the input
voltage then the HV DC is directed to a HV capacitor Bank"
From there I guess it is sent in spurts to the electromagnets
which repell each other according to the illustration.
He claims he was skeptical at first, but held down the magnet on
top of the other in case it did work, so his electromagnet would not
fly off and get damaged. He says when the + wire was connected
to the 12 v battery, the magnet's repulsion nearly broke his arm.
Uh? Not that I'm running around sharing their "top secret" motor plans.
I'm just quoting their magnet claims.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 23, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Thanks for reply Jeanna,
Haven't tried any of it yet. Reason being, a low budget, I want to know what I need
before ordering things I wont need or use long, also have too many projects going ;0(
Ok, and unlike a regular transformer, which shouldn't work with straight DC anyway,
this not only spikes to mimic a pulsing, allowing transformer type action to occure
with DC, but it then takes on it's own strange behavior so that voltage really isn't
governed by the number of turns? Or am I misunderstanding?
In other words, If I want a larger Ferrite ring for more amps, but only give it a 2:1 ratio
of turns, it could still quaduple, or what ever it wants as far as voltage, because the
voltage is recycled back EMF spiking echo? How can I controll the voltage with these
larger ferrite rings? Or can I get a steady voltage of 250 and then just use a step down
transformer to acheive a steady but beefy 12 volts ?
That is, power it with a 12 volt battery, "it" being between 12v power supply and a 12v
electric motor, spiking and hissing,whatever, step it back down to 12 volts, and have
more amps that I started with?, ...to run that motor?
Also, when a transistor is used as a switch, does that mean it is turning on and off rapidly?,
repeatedly? By itself?
And if so, is a Relay similar? How does a Relay differ? Can a Relay be used to pulse DC
so it can be stepped down by a transformer? That's my impression though factory spec sheet
was not very clear.
And because te circuit is spiking, it will work with a transformer, regardless?
No need to further pulse the DC with Relays, etc?
Ok, what is causing the spiking? The whole combo, or certain components of the circuit?
If I remove either the Resistor, or the Transistor, or both, will it still spike or pulse somewhat
due to the wire turn configuration? (Will a secondary used as a transformer still work?)
Do these components come in big size? Same names? Where?
Bottom line is, I want to run an electric car, with half the batteries, etc..
er? ...like, forever. ;-P
Thanks.
Here is what I think is one of the best explanations of what is happening with a JT
gary
Cool,
So I'm actually getting more out of the battery
yet it takes longer for the battery to go dead?
Some folk say that is because it uses everything the
battery has, others say there's a little more going on?
Let me ask you this. I have a power supply plugged
into the wall, it is tested and rated at 1.5v DC 500mA
Unlimited supply of that, powering a Joule Thief.
Powering say, your first successful Joule Thief,
What am I getting out the other end of this?
Use more than one Thief configuration if you want,
Decsribe it if desired. But keep input the same.
All answers invited, including guestimates.