so im using a simple 555 setup like the one listed except the cap is 100nf, the resister leading to the mosfet is 2.2k and im using a p-chan mosfet instead of a transistor.
ive noticed my 555 chip gets hot. im using a powersupply of 5 1.2v nickel metal hydride batteries for 6v.
has anyone experienced this issue and how can you resolve it? i can touch the chip but not for prolonged periods of time and if im going to run this for any length of time (10 minutes it gets hot!) im going to need to resolve this issue.
i like this circuit as its simple and works really well! the frequency and duty cycles are easy to modify for the most part (sometimes requires a little play) and the cap can be reduced for higher frequencies.
i googled the issue and only a couple people report this and not much is said except the circuit is fried but i dont think it is as its currently working provided i dont leave it on over night :-p
thanks for any comments or assistance.
What are you trying to do with the secondary output?
well eventually i will use a A setup like that for water experiments but for now im not using the transformer. just a 11.3k resistor in place of the 1k (but i changed that to make sure it wasnt causing the heat) and the 2.2k where it is.
right now im just passing the strait output through the mosftet to my hho cell, i have the one output line to the base of the mos and i have the source to pos on batt and the drain to pos of the hho cell neg of hho cell to neg of batt.
just a strait pass through circuit using the 555 to control pwm
i expect the mos to run hot but its staying cool while the 555 gets hot. if im right it should be running about 900hz to 1khz according to simulators anyways.
attatched is my accurate setup.
@Artic_Knight
Probably voltage spikes come back from the transformer and sit onto the battery voltage, this may heat up the 555.
To remedy this, separate the positive supply feed point to the 555 from the transformer primary. USe a 1kOHM series resistor in the supply wire of the 555 that leads to the + battery and use also at least 220 - 470nF capacitor directly between the supply pins of the 555.
The series 2.2 kOhm is also helpful at the base you did.
Gyula
so your saying at a 1k resistor where i did in series with the vdc feed for the 555? now where is this cap supposed to go?
you know, this chip is only rated for 200mah, i wonder if that resistor on "vdc in" that i added on the diagram will resolve the issue..
thanks for your input, just so i understand your full statement where are you suggesting to add the cap? connected to pins 8 and 4 but still allowing pins 8 and 4 to connect to the positive feed directly? pin 4 if i remember correctly is the reset (either it or 8 one.)
thanks
What frequency is your 555 runinng at? 42.8Khz is favoured by most.
less than 1khz i believe, but i can assure you its a long ways away from the famous 42.8
i was aiming for 923 as there was some experiments that said that was a good frequency but it didnt do me any good.
i would need to reduce the capacitor to 1nf i think to reach 42.8 but i have not tried yet to be honest.
i assume by you mentioning the 42.8khz you are looking for the magic sweet spot. unfortunately that will vary from setup to setup as there is a different frequency for every plate setup electrolyte setup etc. as the temperature changes or electrolyte concentration changes its going to bring it out of the "sweet" spot so i dont even bother trying right now. i just want to get the basics working predictably and then move forward :)
it must be because im sick that i missed it... adding that resistor to the VDC In or pin 8 should reduce the current flow in the chip and as consequence reduce my heat. thanks for bringing that up :)
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 17, 2010, 01:41:56 PM
less than 1khz i believe, but i can assure you its a long ways away from the famous 42.8
i was aiming for 923 as there was some experiments that said that was a good frequency but it didnt do me any good.
i would need to reduce the capacitor to 1nf i think to reach 42.8 but i have not tried yet to be honest.
i assume by you mentioning the 42.8khz you are looking for the magic sweet spot. unfortunately that will vary from setup to setup as there is a different frequency for every plate setup electrolyte setup etc. as the temperature changes or electrolyte concentration changes its going to bring it out of the "sweet" spot so i dont even bother trying right now. i just want to get the basics working predictably and then move forward :)
it must be because im sick that i missed it... adding that resistor to the VDC In or pin 8 should reduce the current flow in the chip and as consequence reduce my heat. thanks for bringing that up :)
Search for astable (pagg. 5-6-7) in the following datas*eet: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/LM/LM555.pdf the "typical"component value is shown in the fig.6 table. You will easily be able to make the 555 generate also 50kHz frequency.
Same thing for http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ne555.pdf : see pagg.10-11 (fig.14).
Gustav Pese
www.alt-nrg.de/pppp
@AK
The BD243 is a silicon npn bipolar power transistor as your
schematic shows but not a p channel FET as the comment indicates.
bipolar power transistors often have low beta gain at 60. Ic = Beta * Ib
Thats called their transfer function, how they are primarily designed to
be used. Consequently they need to be driven hard with a lot base
of current. That current is overheating the output circuit in your
NE555.
The way to correct this is to form a darlington coupled pair with two npn
transistors. The first one is a small 2n2222 and has a larger base resistor
(2.2K) and it's emitter directly drives the base of the power transistor.
It's simple. The collective beta current gain will be like 600. = 60 * 100
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_pair
NE555 is good for probably <1MHz. with the appropriate components
the NE555 is bad at low frequencies like <10Hz. There use a
"long range timer" component. Use an N channel MOSFET if desired.
:S:MarkSCoffman
thanks mark actually i do have a fet in use, this diagram was ripped from the web so it does show a transistor. if i understand it correctly the fets are not a strain on anything as they are only driven by voltage and thus require less curernt than a transistor right? thats why i chose to use fets. it should be wide open at 12v which it will have when i connect to a car battery later in life, until then 6v it is.
Yes that should be ok, If you disconnect the fet. Does the ne555
still run hot? If so the high vcc is at fault. My tendency would have
been to use the orignal circuit with the load moved from the collector
to the emitter of the power transistor. If the signal is not a square
wave then load will see the opposite polarity inverted signal. But the
current drive should be correct. If the ne555 runs hot with the load
disconnected though the bipolar transistor won't help that.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 17, 2010, 01:22:27 PM
so your saying at a 1k resistor where i did in series with the vdc feed for the 555? now where is this cap supposed to go?
you know, this chip is only rated for 200mah, i wonder if that resistor on "vdc in" that i added on the diagram will resolve the issue..
thanks for your input, just so i understand your full statement where are you suggesting to add the cap? connected to pins 8 and 4 but still allowing pins 8 and 4 to connect to the positive feed directly? pin 4 if i remember correctly is the reset (either it or 8 one.)
thanks
Hi, I attached what I thought may clean up the supply input to the 555 if nasty pulses may appear on the battery fed back from the transformer, such already happened with me.
IF you use MOSFET instead of the bipolar transistor it can also happen that the drain-source side high voltage pulse (if any) may leak through to the 55 output via the FET self capacitances that may be several hundred pF to some nF too and you would need to protect the 555 output from it, mainly with series resistor like in the bipolar transistor case.
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 17, 2010, 01:41:56 PM
less than 1khz i believe, but i can assure you its a long ways away from the famous 42.8
i was aiming for 923 as there was some experiments that said that was a good frequency but it didnt do me any good.
It won't.
If you want to split water, you should first try using 42.8khz, as used by
Bob Boyce (along with an octave down, and another an octave down on that).
Stan Meyer and Dave Lawton. Also as used by John Worrell Keely before them.
yes the famous 42.8 is good but as previously stated the frequency changes a lot with different conditions (temp, electrolyte, plate size, etc) and i didnt want to sit down and commit to a frequency anyways. 923 was convienient so i started with that but mearly needed a pwm for testing.
i figure when i get good and ready to play with frequencies and see if they are useful i will need to know more about the resonant fracturing of water as im going to want to keep resonance despite changes in the cell temp and water contaminants.
first things first, im working this weekend with the circuit again to make sure its running cool, then im finishing my dry cell and testing its production :) after that if i feel lucky ill try some resonance.
as with many members of this forum i feel the need to take it one step at a time, but i am glad i have many knowledgable people here who are willing to lend some advice! thanks to everyone for their kindness!
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 18, 2010, 02:11:16 PM
yes the famous 42.8 is good but as previously stated the frequency changes a lot with different conditions (temp, electrolyte, plate size, etc)...
No, with respect, I think you are wrong. You start with 42.8khz.
That is a given. Everything else can be changed. Achieving this
number is not difficult. It is a matter of using the 555 spreadsheet
and getting the right values for the resistance and capacitance.
start with 42800
and 2 frequeny 840Hz.
Attn. Keely sai 610Hz (test this also.
SM Ravi and other
using 2 frequencies.
study also drusell kettering
to become an bette feeling
over "waves, resonancees" and more...
Gustav Pese
The best Homepage that i have seen for 555 /556 Timers
(how to calculate)
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM555.html
Quote from: pese on March 18, 2010, 05:59:27 PM
start with 42800
and 2 frequeny 840Hz.
SM Ravi and other
using 2 frequencies.
study also drusell kettering
to become an bette feeling
over "waves, resonancees" and more...
Gustav Pese
Bob Boyce uses 42800, 21400 and 10700 around his toroid.
See chapter 10 (ref above).
Quote from: Paul-R on March 18, 2010, 06:50:43 PM
Bob Boyce uses 42800, 21400 and 10700 around his toroid.
See chapter 10 (ref above).
tks.
if you give attention of the numbers
10700 time 2 is
21400 this time 2 is:
42800.
if you calculate from my number 840Hz
double double double 9 times
you will also find YOUR NUMBERS !!
So this are all HARMONICs & RESONANCES.
please look Homepage from drusell / kettering university.
aucousic waves
very helpfully to become more feeling to waves and frequencies
Gustav Pese
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/demos.html
Quote from: pese on March 18, 2010, 09:18:10 PM
tks.
if you give attention of the numbers
10700 time 2 is
21400 this time 2 is:
42800.
if you calculate from my number 840Hz
double double double 9 times
you will also find YOUR NUMBERS !!
I tremble to suggest that you may be wrong here, Pese, but
I am not betting my kidneys on you being right:
The octaves:
840
1680
3360
6720
13440 (which should be 10700)
26880 (which should be 21400)
oje big mistake,
not more happy.
wrong
mistake
sorry
Gustav Pese
@Artic_Knight
I had an experimental HHO system installed in my car approx 2 years ago. The cell run from a PWM controlled high voltage 10amp boost converter.
Basically it was driven via a 555 timer chip which varied the pwm output as the vehicle revs increased to increase the hho feedback system from the MAF. I used IGBT devices as output drivers to the cells. The project was successful in as far as the mpg was concerned. I used ordinary tap water with no additives. I later removed the system to comply with insurance regulations (vehicle mods) and abandoned the project. Somewhere in all the clutter of papers I may still have the schematic of the pwm front end... if you are still experiencing difficulty PM me and I'll try and locate... although your quires may have been answered already. Best of look with your project.
thanks crowclaw.
my issue with the 555 was not getting frequencies but preventing it from overheating. it appears the pin 4 or i believe its reset pin was the cause. after pairing it with 8 or the vcc pin and adding a 1k resistor i managed to keep the chip at a nice cool temp to the touch.
i have a different idea for frequencies and will not be aiming for any specfic freq but looking at a setup to use changing frequencies.
on a side note my electrodes are aluminum and are working the same if not better than stainless steel! i have the white coating in one night, oxidation doesnt seem to be an issue like others mentioned it might be. i origionaly tested on razorblades and for a same given environment i seem to get better production for less mah. at this time i have been testing at 100 mah.
thanks all!
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 20, 2010, 02:28:41 AM
My issue with the 555 was not getting frequencies but preventing it from overheating.
This should not be happening. Are you running more volts in than it says on the packet?
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/LM/LM555.pdf
If not, maybe you mention this problem to them:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, have you seen this spreasheet for getting the 555 frequency?
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/CALC.XLS
(You will need Excel or the OpenOffice equivalent)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
well my 555 chip came from radio shack part number 555cn. and sure enough when i ran a 1k resistor between the batteries and pins 4 and 8 (together) the heat stopped. it was not overheating in a way that seemed to damage the chip or cause negative side effects but I wouldnt leave my finger on it longer than a couple seconds :) i was using 6 volts and this generated the heat. i have now scaled up to 10 volts (i use aa battery packs) with no heat after adding the resistor.
i did try 42.8khz just for giggles tonight and didnt notice any change in production. however i will say this, my circuit has been using 90mah and producing what might be (havent done a volume test) 1 liter per hour.
i keep R2 as they referr to it (the resistor to pin 7 and cap) at a low 2.2k to 1k so my pulses are mostly voltage and raise resistor 1 or the resistor coming more directly from battery to control frequency.
my bubbles are a fine mist and with a dab of baking soda (3 pinch at most) per half liter water im getting very cloudy water.
i had to be careful conditioning my plates in plain tap emptying water once an hour since im using aluminum but there is an unusual effect, the oxygen plate only got slightly spotted or maybe its pitted before the hydrogen plate got a white coating. now the production has increased (only barely noticable to naked eye) and further darkening or pitting of the plates appears to have stopped altogether.
i conditioned my plates for a total of roughly 12 hours. the first 2 developed the white coating and since there has been no noticable change.
right now my plates consist of 2 small strips of aluminum dangling in a cup of water. my dry cell is only partially completed but when its done i expect to see a extreamly effecient cell. im contributing this to the use of aluminum but will need to see how long it lasts before i dedicate myself to this metal. it does appear to be better when compared to youtube videos but without proper cell and measurements at this time i really dont have much to go on except an opinion.
has anyone else worked with aluminum? i seen one mention of it in this forum but didnt see much more.
stay tuned. more updates will follow as progress continues :)
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 21, 2010, 03:43:27 AM
my bubbles are a fine mist and with a dab of baking soda (3 pinch at most) per half liter water im getting very cloudy water.
Nobody recommends baking soda because it has no special benefits
and gives off carbon monoxide as a by product.
Try Sodium hydroxide in a weak solution. (aka Lye, caustic soda).
please define no special benifits.
i added a pinch of baking soda and it increased production dramatically in my cell while i was only drawing what seems to be 90 mah. dont know for sure till i check it under a scope (dont have one)
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 26, 2010, 11:35:08 PM
please define no special benefits.
The electrolyte has specific functions, principally to allow electrons to flow
through the system. The solution must, at least, have ions. Both baking
soda and NaOH pass this test.
However, under electrolysis, Baking soda based electrolytes have given off
carbon monoxide. If this is what you want, then use baking soda.
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 21, 2010, 03:43:27 AM
has anyone else worked with aluminum? i seen one mention of it in this forum but didn't see much more.
I believe for serious production volume where you need to up the power you'll probably find ali plates will not last. The most commonly used material is high grade stainless steel, and this is the material I used. My cell was running just under 8amps at just under 100volts.
Quote from: Artic_Knight on March 26, 2010, 11:35:08 PM
please define no special benifits.
i added a pinch of baking soda and it increased production dramatically in my cell while i was only drawing what seems to be 90 mah. dont know for sure till i check it under a scope (dont have one)
what unit is mah? and are you talking about an oscilloscope?
what is the 42,8kHz supposed to do to the water molecule?
Quote from: haithar on April 12, 2010, 07:17:06 AM
what is the 42,8kHz supposed to do to the water molecule?
In some sort of way, it shakes it to pieces, probably due to resonance.
John Worrell Keely is said to have done this using sound and others, principally
Bob Boyce, using electrical effects.
(Rather like the opera singer breaking the champagne glass by singing at it its
resonant frequency).
In microwaves you have waveguides and cavities. everything is tuned.
Do you think the size and shape of the hho resivoir will change the frequency?
What do you think?
BE
Quote from: bille on April 13, 2010, 07:10:30 PM
In microwaves you have waveguides and cavities. everything is tuned.
Do you think the size and shape of the hho reservoir will change the frequency?
What do you think?
BE
I doubt it. In the case of Bob Boyce, it is the separation of the plates and the electrical frequencies put out. There is a standing wave going across the 101 plates, and the plates must be at a null position. Te gases are given off, as with Stan Meyer, in the space between the plates and not on the surface of the plates. It is thought that it is the static voltage which does the stuff, rather than the current.
viz
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
Has anyone looked in to the efficiency of the process related to the Duty Cycle of the signal? Do the molecules need any "down time" for maximum efficiency?