This is a motor that I have been playing around with for a while when I have time. So far my second to final build had a serious error and the final need to be corrected with custom mags or built according to what is available.
Here are some vids of the idea to get started. My next posts will show some pics of the endeavor thus far.
I think I was just getting burnt out on it. But I feel a session of waves coming in to ride and also give some others a chance to see what I have come up with.
Mags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDoAEeLQiQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMEkSBPMixc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZKNZk_ec-k
This vid was of the had made build that was flawed by 2 stators being engaged with the rotor at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bukk8EhYg8
Mags
When the stator mags are in a position the the poles are aiming horizontal, they have very little affect on the rotor mags which have their poles vertical, until the angle is changed thus changing the polarity of the stator causing rotor movement
Mags
One more vid of the mech close up in action. The latches were necessary to hold the mag in position till the next switch. The spring are from lock tumblers from a lock smith. Each stator operated the same as the others. Some of my best work.
Mags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4JXgEQEnYY
Here is a graphic representation of the switching cycle. If you look carefully, all mags are in a positive push/pull situation in relation to near magnets, other than the stator that is about to be switched in relation to the rotor mag approaching it. And also a pic of all the parts before assy. All the screws are torx machine from a few hard drive scavengings. The white plastic parts are made from 1/16 and 1/8 in. pvc panels from a hobby shop.
All parts were hand made using fine jigsaw blades, razor knife and dremel.
Mags
What's the point.....
This configuration can never become overunity.
I strongly believe any spent development is a waste of time and money.
Not being crude here, just telling you the hard facts of reality.
I like it! Especially the odd/even ratio, the rotating stators, and latches. Keep up the good work! :bigsmile:
0c
Well
All negative postulations from clinically obese gamblers aside.
Thanks for sharing your hard[and beautiful] work!
Seems like a sound idea !
Still rapping my brain around some of it.
Chet
Hi Magluvin,
I also agree with the basic idea is good as you showed in videos Part 1 and 2. However when you increased the number of magnets you seem to have a much less attract or repel force between the rotor and stator: why?
What I see is the total mass of the rotor has increased but the smaller magnets you used after Part 2 behave as if they were weak for the job. Or the mechanical switch bumpings take too much force away from the gained torque, it seems. Or the distance between the just interacting rotor and stator magnets is too big. These are what I think.
Very good and nice workmanship, keep at it!
rgds, Gyula
Beautiful work!
I was also wondering why you didn't try with your proof-of-principle 2-rotor magnets first - though I'm sure you did! Care to expand a little on why that didn't work?
we need more people like you in the world! thank you for sharing! keep up the good work!
open source is the future!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Mags
Great looking Rig.
On your first A effect seemed so much better as you simply had two rotor magnets and were pulsing the stator magnet with your hand, which gave better control. But I was surprised how good the kick was.
Why not attach a small low power consumption solenoid to control the stator magnet.
I messed around a few year ago trying different methods and here is a old video I dragged out.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/pulsetest.mpg
As you can see the magnet in attached to the solenoid to this config, but took so much less power to move a permanent magnet, rather than using a coil to pulse the rotor.
But turning a diametricly magnetised looks like a cool effect you have there and you could end up with a pulse motor with no BEMF/CEMF !
Cheers
Sean.
Thanks All
Sprocket,
The 2 rotor mags and 1 stator did not have enough to push through the switch. So all the other mags are in a positive push/pull situation while the 1 is being switched, thus producing motive force to continue.
In the 7/8 config, there are 56 switchings per revolution of the rotor. Sounds hard to believe as there would be 5600 switches per min in a 100 rpm run, but it all makes sense when you see it in action. But in the 10/9 config I screwed up the timing as in the rotor is making contact with 2 stators at a time instead of 1 thus increasing the work load of switching for the other mags to have to push through.
This thing needs some time and thought. Thats why I am putting it on the table. It is a fresh idea in the pmm world and is worth a looking at by all. =]
The only other idea close to it is the one with the magnet on the seesaw lever that the guy has actuated by a cam on the rotor. Well this is a much better way and it uses both sides of all mags during operation instead of forcing a stator mag above and below the rotor to cause rotor movement.
Mags
Thanks Clanzer
In the first 2 vids is just showing the basic concept of the stator having very little angle change makes big movement on the rotor. By having the odd/even stator/rotor config, all other mags that are not being switched provide positive force to enable the push through of the switch of the one stator, and then it moves on to the next switch immediately, and so on.
I have had this basic concept for a couple years and just finally did something with it last year. It just needs a bit more refining I believe. Hopefully we can put our minds together and get it going. =]
Mags
Here is a cam that I had designed to operate the stators early on, but only to find that the drag during the switch was no better than the activation rods on the 9/10 setup. It wouldnt seem so, but it is.
As you can see, the first 2 vids, the stator has a thin rod that was controlled by the cam lever shown in this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gogl_lm_n0A
Mags
I think this project is in the right way because it uses the principle I believe is the best: MOVE THE STATOR!
Just because the stator is called "stator" it don't mean it has to be completely static. It can move a little!
I think this is the way: MOVE THE STATOR!
Absolutely Raps
We have to have pole switching, whether it be mechanical or electrical. Of course electrical is the easiest and takes little or no power to accomplish, but so far, this is the easiest way that I have found to get poles switching with permanent magnets. I believe the key will be in finding the easiest way to pole switch while using the least amount of motion and energy to do so. Thats what this project is all about. =]
When you watch vid 1 and 2, what is happening is when the stator mag is centered, there will be equal amounts of N and S fields to the plane of the rotor, so there is no affect on the rotor. But when we turn the stator just a bit, vertical fields change, and as the rotor magnets pole are in a vertical direction, this wil cause an attract or repel on the rotor. In this case we are utilizing both sides of the magnets always, so there is always a positive attract and repel on the rotor by each stator mag, other than the one being switched while it is centered during the switch.
Mind you, the stator does take energy to switch. And it is quite close to the same amount of force being applied by the whole of the other mags pushing and pulling the rotor in motion. But vid 3 is something I played with for quite some time to make sure there is enough from the others to push through the 1.
Mags
Mags
To give an idea of what my next step would be, Im thinking of continuity on the rotor magnets. I at first thought that point source by using 1/4x1/8 mags for the rotor would be best. But the distance hurts the collective when the stator is centered between rotor mags. So Im thinking arc mags that touch at the seems. I see that the stator mag will find the center of a larger mag just like it finds the center of the small ones. This way it will have a lot of torque for those stator mags that didnt have it before. Or maybe some space in between rotor mags, dunno yet.
And the reasons for this is to get the setup like in vid 3 to have a stronger push through, just to get that part calibrated before the full build. And if anyone takes on the task to replicate, start with the vid 3 config as a design guide before building many stator mechs. =]
Also the distance of the switch on its radius will have to be gauged to be sure that the previous stator has finished contact with the rotor before starting, and ends before the next stator starts to switch. 1 at a time and each will push through like the rest as in vid 3. Vid 3 is my reason to believe.
Mags
Just some things to think about from my experience, so you dont have to work it out for your selves.
Below is a vid made in Cinema 4D that I used to get the cam right before I made it.
The thing with the cam, to get more than 4 switches per per stator per revolution would be difficult. Even 4 would be tight. If the rotor just had 2 mags and many stators, the cam forks would have to be thin and layered at the cam itself and kept from rubbing to avoid friction. But there isnt enough force with 1 opposite rotor mag to push the other through the switch. So I believe more mags on the perimeter to push the 1 through is the way to go.
All of this is just to tell that the way that I have designed the switching has been well thought out as to doing it with the greatest of ease, simple and modular, modular in that if there is a problem with a mech, it is easily removed and repaired without a big tear down.
Mags
I watched video 2 many times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMEkSBPMixc
The stator just need to be "moved" two times per turn, and a very small movement...
If the non-magnetic part of the rotor was heavier, couldn't a cam move the stator? What about gear wheels?
Raps
Too much friction. The cam is ridding on the fork all of the time, and so are gears. In my latching version only 1 stator is making any contact with the rotor at any time. That is a lot of friction reduction compared to cams and gears. Ive been through all that. =] There may be an easier way. But even if it were a cam in the center of the rotor, the amount of energy from the rotor to the stator will be the same to get it to move. Been there done that.
Also when the rotor HITS the half moon of the stator, that impulse helps reduce the amount of energy to turn the stator. =]
Mags
Oops the pic above , 2 of the stators are not timed right, but you get the drift, a lot of friction.
Mags
Hi Magluvin, i like the concept.
But, ye, gears suck !
I couldn't view your Cinema 4d .avi, even though i have klite codec pack latest installed :(
Gary.
Gey Deep
I just showed that geared pic as an example that gears would suck. If you see the top of the thread, you will see my way. =]
Mags
Deep
Jet Audio will play it and its free.
Mags
Thanks.
I did read thread from top and watch all the vids mate, was just aggreeing that 'ye, gears suck' ;+}
I tried something similar with vertically-mounted diametrically-magnetised stators, hoping that inertia would give it enough kickstart, but it wasn't to be :(
Your idea for pole-switching is far superior, beautifully-machined btw :)
I am modelling pic2.jpg in FEM3D - in all varriants of magnet and traektories - such as elleptical gear - its full moments ballanse ( summa of moments =0)
Jonifer, I would like to see the Fem3d results if you would.
Mags
Jonifer
Did you read that 2 of the stator magnets are not in the proper phase? If you were to look at it as a clock from this view, the stators at 10 oclock and 4 oclock should be 90 deg from the way they are sitting with the poles aiming up and down. I still would like to see your modeling. I looked at Fem3d and Im not sure you can get a truly valid score on this one. But I think everyone would be interested to see what you have done. Thanks for the interest in doing so.
Mags
In all phase - you dount have real program for 3D magnet (60K$) - and results can not readen.
truly - truly
Hi Magluvin,
I think your concept is the same as the Torbays Magnet Motor from Agentina.
Take a look at the long thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=933.0
I tried a replication some years ago, but with neg results: too much friction.
Regards
Icarus
I had specified that this seesaw motor, Torbay, was the closest that I have seen to mine.
It is quite a difference though. To manipulate a stator magnet to move above and below the rotor, yes, it most likely does have a lot of friction or it just requires a lot of energy to do so. But here, we make use of both sides of all the magnets, and the magnet is the pivot point with a lever. If you were to build the simple setup in vids 1 and 2 and give it a go round, you will soon be looking for a way to get the rotor to switch that stator, much sooner than the torbay. =] Its actually hard to put it down. My brother was playing with it for a while and he does not really get into this stuff, but he saw the effect and knew what the possibilities were very quickly.
It is different.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on April 29, 2010, 08:20:54 AM
I had specified that this seesaw motor, Torbay, was the closest that I have seen to mine.
It is quite a difference though. To manipulate a stator magnet to move above and below the rotor, yes, it most likely does have a lot of friction or it just requires a lot of energy to do so. But here, we make use of both sides of all the magnets, and the magnet is the pivot point with a lever. If you were to build the simple setup in vids 1 and 2 and give it a go round, you will soon be looking for a way to get the rotor to switch that stator, much sooner than the torbay. =] Its actually hard to put it down. My brother was playing with it for a while and he does not really get into this stuff, but he saw the effect and knew what the possibilities were very quickly.
It is different.
Mags
@Magluvin;
I keep coming back to the original motor video. I think it might behoove
you/us or whatever, to take one of your bearing magnet mounts and
the initial two magnet rotor. Then try to make a model airplane servo
mechanism (plus a computer) rotate the magnet in such a way that
makes the rotor go. See... this mechanism can do what humans do but
in a very consistant way on each rev., but it won't do what a human does
at first...then you can gate in enough behavior to make it work but control
how much servo momentum gets included with the rotor momentum. In
other words teach the mechanism how to do the task and learn how to
do make the wheel do it itself in the process. The slower you make the
rotation process the less energy it takes.
You will never get the wheel to work in overunity mode with this
arrangement of control (actually, I shouldn't say that ;)) due to
the input power required. But you will probably learn how close
you can get.
I feel that your third system tries to work by the old statement;
"Sell the product (energy) at discount but make it up in volume."
That doesn't ever work...Each rev. must power itself or make up
for the power that it took for that rev. Your first attempt is
actually closer to your goal then your last. Don't feel bad - engage
in the learning process.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Ms
Some others also have told me that about using an electromechanical device to move the stator. But would it use less energy than the rotor in doing so? But you got me thinking. I and it seems many here like the concept, and thats great.
Maybe just a solenoid with a mag on the stator lever and just pulse it back and forth, with a little impulse.
But what I always end up with is the fact that once the stator is switched, it does not want to be in that position at the time. But once it gets to the position center between the rotor mags, the stator is attracted to the next rotor mag and the pressure on the latch is released, making the latch very easy to trigger for the next switch and so on.
I have thought this through pretty good. And it is good. ;]
So lets say a geared servo. I think it would be too slow at switching. Or a servo like in a hard drive to move the read arm, this would require input to the servo from the beginning of the switch all the way till the stator is center between rotor mags, while the latch takes care of that portion of energy needed in my mechs.
Its hard to say really till its all been tried.
But for now I want to continue to pursue the all mechanical way, as that is the real deal. =]
But I will accept any suggestions that may perform better than I have described above. ;]
Thanks
Mags
MS wrote
I feel that your third system
tries to work by the old statement;
"Sell the product (energy) at discount but make it up in volume."
That doesn't ever work...Each rev. must power itself or make up
for the power that it took for that rev. Your first attempt is
actually closer to your goal then your last. Don't feel bad - engage
in the learning process.
Much of the basis of the idea was to have the stator mags in a condition that the rotor mag that it is leaving is pushing it and the rotor mag that it is approaching is pulling it. So the rotor is receiving drive from all stator magnets at all times, even the stator that is being switched is still attracted to the rotor mag it is coming upon till the stator is half way through the switch, at which time the stator and rotor mag are as close and inline as they will ever get. And when the stator goes through its second half of the switch, it is already being repelled forward, and at some degree, all the way to the next rotor mag that the stator has to switch at also, and so on.
Once you get it all in your mind, you will see what Im saying. With what we have here, I think it is very close and logical to a working product.
Mags
Here is my new setup in 3d done in Cinema 4D. I have pics of the real deal as shown, I just have to dig out my memory cards from the move. I can take some fresh pics, but I dont have the stator stands mounted, and havnt unpacked them yet.
Will get to it later today.
Mags
Doh! Ok mem card is here. =]
Mags
The plexi rotor is 10 in. dia. The pvc ring makes mags interchangeable with the rotor, of which these mags were funky, as in, they are not magnetized at center. I fiddled and fiddled, extracting them and rotating them to make it right, but I need to get new ones. This created a big imbalance. Some were way off and some were pretty good.
They were on sale but still cost quite a bit. N52 3/4 x 3/8 with so called black nickle coating. The stator mags were good, and if I had bought more of them they would have been excellent for the rotor also. But I only bought enough for each purpose. Im still shopping and questioning the distributors as to accuracy of flux bubbles. They all think im nuts. :o
Ill do a vid on them as to how bad they really are. And I bet this is a concern for all magnet motors and people not realizing the problem. I should have listened to OC when he said go small.
Mags
Hello Mags,
Any progress beyond this? Are you posting on another forum?
Cheers,
jwg