This is a new version of my original Automatic Gravity Engine concept I showed in my previous topic: Do you see what I see...
Look at the drawing below. This is just an upside down drawing of my original AGE drawing.
Can you all now appreciate what this new drawing shows?
This shows a larger cylindrical drum wheel free to rotate on its axle (not shown), with strong cylindrical diametrically magnetised permanent magnets with their poles radially fixed between its inner and outer rims at eight equidisdant points, starting from the 12 o'clock position.
A second smaller cylindrical wheel with eight similar magnets, tangentially fixed at at eight equidistant points inside next to the its rim, free to roll on the inside rim of the larger wheel.
Can you appreciate the positions of the poles of the magnets on the drawing?
Many magnets are in engaging positions, with like poles ready to repulse and opposite poles ready to pull, which look set to make the smaller wheel rotate clockwise, thereby unbalancing the larger wheel on its axle and this larger wheel must therefore rotate clockwise too.
The magnets will continuously be in engaging positions, therefore the pulling and repulsing will be continuous. Therefore the wheels will rotate continuously.
These magnets look set to run.
Would you all agree?
Raj
OK Raj, I will bite. If I look at the placement of the poles, I see on the left attraction, and on the right repulsion. Now if the wheels are gear linked together, common sense tells me that it should want to keep moving its self to the attraction side. Therefore making it run auto. On the bottom, sadly I see a sticky spot at close proxcimity that may have more holding power than the other two forces combined. With that, only way to find out would be to "build it" and I dont have a shop to do so. At $80 per hour shop time and finding one that wants to "bother" with it, makes it hard.
Another possible would be using a toothed belt setup to drive it but then I dont have that either.
All in all, you pose an interesting idea.
With all that out of the way, what would be the chance that you could use this idea to be an assist to what ever input force you may have?
thaelin
Hello thaelin,
Thank you for your kind reply.
(1)Has any of you come across a magnet motor/engine design, however close to my AGE design?
I would appreciate if you could kindly tell me a bit about the design you have come across.
(2) Is there any of you who thinks that my Automatic Gravity Engine will not run?
If yes, please give me a single reason why you think it won't run.
(3) Below is a new drawing of my AGE design, where I have attempted to show the interactions of the magnets of the two wheels.
The black broken lines show the direct engaging lines between centres of reciprocal magnets of the two wheels, with positive attractions and repulsions that would would supply magnetic force for both wheels to turn clockwise.
The red broken shows negative counter magnetic force as sticky points.
The drawing shows a heavily positive magnetic force, always forcing the wheels to turn clockwise.
Do you now think that this drawing constitute a theoritical proof that my Automatic Gravity Wheel is set to run?
As to your question, thaelin, I leave it to each one of you to answer it for himself.
I look forward to hear from you.
God Bless.
Raj
I believe you will all appreciate the following details:
The drawing above is drawn to scale:
The larger outer wheel diameter is 20 cms.
The smaller inner wheel diameter is 10 cms.
The 16 diametrically cylindical magnetised magnets ( 8 in each wheel) diameter is 2 cms, their strength is 6000 gauss, the engaging distance between two magnets is 10 cms. ( these magnets are available from www.first4magnets.com UK)
The real proof whether my AGE will run or not is definitely a working prototype.
But for reasons already mentioned in my previous topic, I would not be able to build and test my Automatic Gravity Engine before 2011 March/April.
Is there any of you who would care and dare try this build for us.
Let's hope so.
Thanks
Raj
this will not run....
The push/pull of the entry and exit magnets are not enough to overcome the bottom magnets where a sticky point will be
I would agree with your design if the magnet attraction/repullsion was linear...but it is not
Distance is key..... forget your guass numbers... you need to look at the scale of force over distance in .1 mm increments and apply that to your design
You will find that there is not enough energy to over come the sticky point.
Lilhawk
I think you made some very strong points in your analysis. I thank you for that.
I am giving all due considerations to your views.
I am making changes to my AGE design, as I go along, in the hope that there will be some inprovements in my concept.
Below is a new drawing, with some changes to my original concept and drawing posted under my previous topic: Do you see what I see???
The black broken lines are direct repulsion magnetic force lines and the red broken lines are direct attraction magnetic force lines between adjoining magnets.
The maximum engagement distance between two magnets is the length of the diameter of the small inner wheel.
Does anyone of you think that these new repulsion and attraction magnetic forces look likely to make the wheels
rotate.
Reply please.
Raj
If any of you think that the wheels won't rotate, please reply and give me your views.
I need your views to improve on my concepts.
Thanks.
Raj
Is this what you mean to build?
Jesus
No!
It is not so simple as that, because in your presentation there is no magnetic engagement taking place. The wheels are not interaction.
Below , the drawing is what the lateral view of my Automatic Gravity Engine looks like.
Now please make a new assessment and let me know what you think?
I await to hear from you.
Regards.
Raj
I understand now.
The big wheel will be floating magnetically.
Jesus
That is absolutely correct.
The wheels will be in continuous interaction. The big wheel continuously floating, as you mentioned.
It is important to note that all the magnetic forces, both repulsion and attraction forces, seem to be providing a clockwise torque turning effect to the inner small wheel rotable on its axle.
The big questions are:
(1).Will all these magnetic forces acting on the wheels leave them on equilibrium position?
(2) Do you see sticky points strong enough to counter all the torque providing magnetic forces, and make the wheels stay in equilibrium?
Of course, we are looking at this only theoritically.
The final proof must be a working prototype.
I want to you all to help me analyse my AGE concept theoritically at least, if a build is not is not envisaged for now.
Thanks.
Raj
Hi Raj:
Going back to the new draw in post 5, if you follow all the lines you have drawn, you will see an "exact" replication on each side. That is to say, you have an equal attract and oppose on each site. This draw is in total lockup as shown and will not move.
On a better note, KJMag has 3/8" diametric magnets for about a buck apiece. So for about $25, I can have some fun too. Need to order some big diametric anyhow. Keep ya posted. See how many more blisters I can get in the process.
thay
Hello thaelin,
I am so pleased to have you here again.
Yes, you are right to say that the magnetic attraction and repulsion lines look like an exact replication on each side of the wheels.
But! But! Look closely at each magnets on the small inner wheel. Each magnet here has two lines of magnetic engagement, one attraction and one repulsion. And! And both lines of magnetic force (one pushing and one pulling the small inner wheel CLOCKWISE.
In fact, it looks to me that almost all the attraction and repulsion magnetic lines on BOTH SIDES of the wheels are applying some torque to the small inner wheel, which consequently will rotate clockwise, which will in turn, makes the outer bigger wheel rotate on top of the smaller wheel, thereby resetting the positions of the magnets.
I remain at your disposal to be corrected on what I see.
thaelin, I am indebted to you for you having a go at a trial build of our AGE.
Please let us know how it goes.
Thanks again.
Raj
Forgetting sticky spots, i don't see where the wheel is overbalanced to get gravitational assistance?, so in fact it would be a smot, where the driver is the wheel inside, so all the weight of the small wheel is one the left when climbing, so we have to assume the driver has the capacity to accelerate with sufficient force to throw the wheel around the track at speed, Can't say either way if it will or won't work, only that it needs great speed or it will equally roll backwards from the top, thus my input for you is use very strong neos for power, good luck, definitely cool looking machine
If we ignore the influence of the magnets ( attracting and repulsion effects) on the wheels above, they are in full balanced/equilibrium position.
But! But both wheels are under full influence of the magnetic forces of the adjoining magnets.
I now expect the larger wheel to rise up slightly on the clockwise side and to lower down slightly on the counter-clocwise side, as in the second drawing below.
If we look closely on this second drawing, we should observe the following:
(1)the larger wheel is kept in that position by the magnetic forces and is unlikely to slip or roll back
(2) The larger wheel has now help to change the centre of gravity of the wheels. The wheels must now rotate together on the axle of the smaller whheel.
(3) the wheels will automaticly reset themselves to their start position
(4) the rotating action and the resetting action will happen closely/almost simultaneously.
The above is what I see.
These wheels look set to run!!! Only a build will prove otherwise.
What do you think?
Please let us have your comments.
Thanks.
Raj
The second drawing.
If you send me the materials I can build it now that I am not working.
Jesus
By God, I WISH I had the materials. I would have already tried to build and test my concept. I would not have found it neccesary to come on this forum...to seek your views!!!
It is a shame that due to circumstances, I will not be be able to built the AGE device before newyear.
I shall let you all know what I shall see then.
Till then let me stay theoritical.
Raj
Hey Raj:
Getting ready to start this thing. I will need to know what your original dimensions are for each wheel. Just the diameters of each wheel and mags will be ok. That way I can scale it down to fit my magnets. You can PM the info if you want to keep it that way for the moment.
thay
Quote from: Raj Balkee on August 02, 2010, 01:16:24 PM
I would not have found it neccesary to come on this forum...to seek your views!!!
Whether you have build it or not it's always useful to put ideas and concepts in the public domain especially relating to FE. This would encourage discussion, spark new ideas and be a form of security.
Hello Thay.
The diameter of the outer rim of the inner small wheel IS HALF the length of the diameter of the inner rim of the outer larger wheel.
The magnets will be the biggest and strongest available.
I am indebted to you for having a go at a build and test of concept.
Many many thanks.
Regards.
Raj
Quote from: Thaelin on July 18, 2010, 01:32:29 PM
Hi Raj:
Going back to the new draw in post 5, if you follow all the lines you have drawn, you will see an "exact" replication on each side. That is to say, you have an equal attract and oppose on each site. This draw is in total lockup as shown and will not move.
On a better note, KJMag has 3/8" diametric magnets for about a buck apiece. So for about $25, I can have some fun too. Need to order some big diametric anyhow. Keep ya posted. See how many more blisters I can get in the process.
thay
AS WE WOULD EXPECT, I presume thay must be suffering from blistered fingers from his trial build, for not coming back here ...
I thank thay for caring/daring to try.
I suspect I would be full of blisters too, by new year, when I shall try my build of my AGE concept.
Raj
A couple of pinches yes, no blisters yet. You are quite right. I am having a hell of a time getting them to orient right and not spin around while setting. The only thing I can come up with is setting them in an insertable section and then pushing that into the wheel with glue. Just nothing here to grasp while inserting. I think it may be more adventagious to get another 24 and make this twice as big in size. The rings are no problem to make and drill, just getting the pole faced the right way. ;D Sure glad I didn't try with 3/4" size.
thay
and by the way, I am still working 6 days a week.
Hello Thay!
How are things fairing with your trial?
I am closely following all magnet concepts and devices posted on this forum, and I find my AGE concept has a distinct difference from all.
My concept uses two forces:
(1) the repelling and attracting force of magnets to overbalance the wheels to make them turn.
(2) the force of Gravity to reset the unbalanced wheels.
Both forces are expected to act simultaneously, to make both wheels turn continuously.
It would be nice to know if Thay can find any indication anywhere near to my concept.
I omitted to point out that my AGE concept is 'patent pending'
Patent Apllication Number: GB1008778.1
Filing Date: 26 May 2010.
Raj
Over and over the same error. In a closed system something moves because it is submitted to a potential difference (gravity, electric or magnetic).
After one turn the system is at the same position as its start point. This means that there is no potential difference between the start point and the final point, consequently there is no reason for the mobile part to move.
A potential difference can cause the mobile part to move but only along a fraction of the path, because the potential difference in the next part of the loop is of opposite sign (otherwise the potential energy would not be the same at the start and end positions which are the same and one).
A description of a closed system using only current laws of physics will never prove perpetual motion. And if the system is not closed, then the system could work, but in this case what is depleted outside? What is the principle involved?
Either a working model is to be built and shown, or a consistent theory is to be presented (in order the others not to waste time in attempt to make experiments to verify it). We have here neither one nor the other.
I am pleased that my announcement above has triggered a reply.
Starting from a point, moving/turning/ rotating and resetting at the start point, is ALL I have tried to achieve.
Starting from rest postion, and resetting to the start position, we have GAINED ' some momentum, if nothing else, that can alleviate in some way, in the next cycle!!!
A ' Build' will be done in due course. There is no rush.
For better or for worse, safeguarding my idea has been my priority.
' Closed' or ' Open' systems have been the least of my worries.
As for the laws of thermodynamics as we know them today, I wonder what will they be like in a thousand years and beyound.
Regards.
Raj
Quote from: Raj Balkee on September 21, 2010, 12:44:30 PM
...
As for the laws of thermodynamics as we know them today, I wonder what will they be like in a thousand years and beyound.
The laws of thermodynamics are statistical therefore they are possibly not correct at very small scale of space-time, especially the second law. Nevertheless we have not yet a conclusive experiment that would dismiss it.
QuoteDoes anyone of you think that these new repulsion and attraction magnetic forces look likely to make the wheels
rotate.
Reply please.
Raj
Raj Balkee,
sorry to take so long with this reply. couldn't find it. and when i did it wasn't as close to yours as i was thinking. it still might be interesting to you. a fellow did a really nice build and couldn't get it to work. i can't find that either, yet.
http://www.fdp.nu/cack_movie/janpcack.asp
tom
Thanks Tom!
The magnet wheel you mention is like most on this forum, i.e the stator and rotor, one maintaining its same orbit in relation to the other, which I think will be gravitationally BALANCED, and will rely entirely on the magnetic repelling and/or attracting forces to provide torque for rotation.
My AGE magnet wheels (outer larger as stator and inner smaller as rotor) are expected to rotate because the stator will continuously change its orbit round the rotor, by being brought closer to the rotor on counterclockwise side and further away from the rotor on the clocwise side by corresponding magnets pull and push, thereby unbalancing the rotor, forcing it to rotate and gravity providing the resetting force each time continuously.
To our friend Thay.
I have been expecting a reply...
As they say...' Silence is golden! 'and/or 'No news is good news!'
But is it?
I wonder...just fable!
Raj
Hello fellow forum members!
Getting ready to see the wheels turning?
Just as a reminder, look at my wheels design (below) once more!
Best wishes to all, especially to Thay!
Raj
For my good forum friends:
Pictures and final modified drawing of my first attempt at building a prototype of my ' Automatic Gravity Engine' under the current name of 'Magnet Gravity Motor'.
I had mentioned in last December that I would attempt a build in 2011. It march 2011 now, and the working prototype build has started.
The design is planned to use twelve diametrically magnetised cylindrical magnets which are not readily available in the market.
The prototype under construction in the pictures, has used only three such magnets, and has turn the wheels up to 45 degrees always in the same direction.
This is an indication that the wheels are being set to run.
N.B: It will take me another eights weeks to get the remaining nine magnets before a complete working prototype can be tested.
By the way, almost any number of magnets can be used to make the motor work and the more, the better.
Well I'll keep you all posted on my work.
Regards .
Raj.
Here's the modified drawing:
Hi Raj,
Your modified drawing shows an almost centered rotor position with respect to the stator (or vice versa), I wonder why you had to change? Earlier you always drew the inner magnet circle positioned to the center point of the half diameter of the stator circle.
Also, there is a 50% included in the file name, what it means I wonder.
Very good you managed to start building and testing it, the best way to learn for sure.
Thanks, Gyula
Hello Gyula,
Thanks for showing interest to know more about my idea in here.
Yes, the modified drawing has changed in presentation, but not in the original concept.
My original concept was simply two cylindrical wheels, on one and the same axle, on the same vertical plane, using magnets to interact as shown in the drawings.
But look at the lines of interaction between the different magnets of the wheels. You will notice much less sticky points in my modified drawing.
And then, even if the inside small wheel is almost at the centre of the larger wheel, the larger wheel's inside very small rim, still rests and rolls on top of the axle of the small wheel.BY THE WAY, the modified drawing must be used in an upside down position, to match my prototype build pictures. Please note that the diameter of this axle is half the diameter of the small inside rim of larger wheel, which mean that the same original synchronised positions and motions of the magnets is maintained.
As for the file name, it is only to remind me the size of the picture, that is, half the size of the original picture.
I have tried to answer to the best of my ability.
Regards.
Raj