I am NOT to credit on this, only that I do believe it can be used as an H2O burner is new. It is a simple design, should be cheap to build this reworked plasma igniter.
My feeling is a design very similar was used in the 1997 "Water for Fuel" car.
Interesting Sites:
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/physics/research/ultra/research/plasma/
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/mediacenter/slideshows/hybrid/index.html
http://www.isomatic.co.uk/welds.html
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090315431
Hope, if you can still edit your post,
you might want to remove the end "L"
Incorrect:
http://www.isomatic.co.uk/welds.html
Correct:
http://www.isomatic.co.uk/welds.htm
Very nice transformers,
but they are for resistance (Spot) welding.
Ideas have been around, but a high temp ceramic
that can handle the vibration, pressure, and heat
of an ICE that doesn't need to be "Fired" to harden
seems to be the stop sign on testing.
Perhaps something in a two part epoxy form
with suspended ceramic dust may surface ?
Whom here knows of a suitable, affordable, available product
that all experimentors here can utilize for plasma plug tests ?
Ok, your right about the ceramic but I found this link for the ceramic replacement we can pour in, this epoxy will be a big item in new products soon.
http://www.epoxies.com/therm.htm the HV should be able to be adapted from the normal spark, you'll need a voltage divider and don't forget the 5KV discharge cap. Timing will be near TDC if effective.
I appreciate your vigor on this matter,
but I need to point out a few things please.
These are thermally conductive compounds,
the opposite of what is usually used in plugs.
Then there is the flame retardant aspect,
will the compound survive repeated quick
exposure to the explosions in the chamber.
Add product expansion (When heated)
to the list of considerations of selection.
Now the list is real short.
But the real stinger is an ability to sustain
the continuous high operating temperatures
continuous explosions, the shockwaves too,
and now the killer.
Dielectric strength.
Even if you get the whole first list fulfilled,
most consumer grade compounds will fail
from a sustained exposure to high potentials.
a large voltage potential makes things fail over time
without any of the above list of additional criteria.
I just hung up with a knowledgeable person at
"Epoxies, Etc..." on this topic, he said he has
nothing that would come close to this application.
I do appreciate you putting effort into this.
But a jetted ceramic kiln is minimum needed.
Maybe tomorrow I'll call a few spark plug companies,
and ask them what criteria they need meet themselves.
I just asked a person in another forum
that worked directly on the testing of
the Krupa FireStorm spark plug if he
knows of anything we can get now
over the counter that needs no kiln.
Sadly the answer was outside of the average experimenter.
It was believed to be a zirconium based product, pre fired,
that had to be cut with diamond tooling, and was difficult.
I've seen experimenters mix powder with epoxy.
Might work for short validation experiments.
Does anyone here know of a better product
we can all (Afford to) purchase over the counter or online ?
A trade name similar to "FireBox" is stuck in my head,
but that is not quite correct according to Google.
Anyone remember the correct name for it ?
It is a two part compound,
a paste when mixed together,
and doesn't contract/expand
while it hardens or is heated.
What (Other) product,
besides cement/morter based products
do people use on small ceramic kilns and so forth?
Thank you
Let us all back up - ceramic in spark plugs is there to provide a thermal path and did you read the part on the company lit. that explained 240+ C and extremely rigid ? hey sounds like you would like us NOT to try this, this is not a prototype approval forum it is a let us see what can happen and what our minds can overcome place. Embed a ceramic tube in yours or whatever. Ideas a year ago even can be or have arrived at an tech break thru and do so daily. Is there any study done on the energy rod composites. Also we live on an island here and would like to harverst wave/rocking motions coupled with thermo(even nanosolar and wind) on same platform any points appreciated, bty this epoxy is premixed and you can tell them how in a variety of ways. There is even a HV safe non conductive formula ideal for this possible "ANWSER". Also a link on porcelain ovens, seem like an affordable sum if life cycle is good. http://stores.ebay.com/dentaldental-wholesalers__W0QQ_fsubZ18339653 and if not then an engine designed to be fired this way would be easier is build, and 5KVpulling toward 15KV will do fine. Funny when i posted this and the magnetic solid state rail gun that shoots mag waves amp'ed my net when down a day. Just coincidence but odd first ever other than power out tho. lol
Quote from: Hope on July 27, 2010, 06:56:01 PM
did you read the part on the company lit
that explained 240+ C and extremely rigid ?
hey sounds like you would like us NOT to try this
bty this epoxy is premixed and you can
tell them how in a variety of ways.
There is even a HV safe non conductive formula
ideal for this possible "ANWSER".
Hmmm, I am sorry you got the impression
that I didn't want to (not only) try this idea,
but try even more advanced concepts too.
(If we ever find the compound we need)
"240+ C and extremely rigid"
Sorry, not even close...
I still have the name and extension number
of the gentleman I spoke to at Epoxies.com.
Your welcome to further the conversation directly,
I'll send the info by PM if you wish to confirm their view.
I suspect the neither want nor need the liability of this.
High voltage is also a few thousand volts too sadly,
we need 50,000-100,000 volts of dielectric strength.
And do this while continually handling over a thousand degrees,
and a faster combustion shock wave than gasoline provides.
(Not merely hundreds of degrees as stated above)
Tomorrow I will open a dialog with
the "Champion" spark plug people,
it is now after business hours.
http://www.ChampionSparkPlugs.com
I'll concentrate my questions on their
stainless steel marine spark plug range.
Those look sweet for sure,
and we are burning water after all.
I may run into problems that the info we need
is considered too propriatary in nature sadly.
If that happens, I'll do AutoLite, etc. until
I get what the minimum specs are for this.
Also, I noted a gentleman that makes
racing engines in another forum too.
He may have insight into minimum specs needed.
Remember,
the hydrogen has the fastest flame propagation of any gas,
so the forces generated in an ICE are considerably greater too.
Don't believe me on this, search Google for N20
(Di-Nitrous Oxide) and melted pistons from overuse.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&newwindow=1&num=100&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=#num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=Nitrous.Oxide+Melted.Pistons&
The nitrogen does slow the burn time some,
but the oxygen wins every time you'll see,
now add hydrogen to this and viola, BANG.
I've studied my share of plasma cutting tips, etc.
they work along the same lines as that pic shows.
But that won't work in a compression chamber,
the design will have to be heavily refined to work.
Not to mention the needed safety check valve.
There is also another thing to address,
what plans do you have for introducing
the water through this version of concept
with the compression's pressure level occurring
just after TDC in a four stroke's cycle ?
I've narrowed my ideas down to two of them,
I'll gladly share as soon as this all takes off ! :)
Seriously, no compound, no point.
The velocity of a hand made spark plug's insulator barrel
launched from a running engine during a firing sequence
is NOT something to joke about in the least, seriously.
It is an extreme safety risk, and will kill someone !
There are things that can be comprimised
in the interest of validating a concept,
this is not a corner to cut...
Info is not as easy to come by as I thought on this tooic,
I will post what little I can find over the next few minutes.
1:
http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-construction
http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/how-spark-plugs-work/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug
"The porcelain of the main insulator is inadequate,
so a sintered aluminium oxide ceramic is used,
that is designed to withstand 650 °C and 60,000 volts."
(My Note: 650-C = 1202-F)
"Sintered aluminium oxide was developed by Siemens in Germany"
"The seal is typically made by the use of a
multi-layer braze because there are no braze compositions
that will wet both the ceramic and metal case
and therefore intermediary alloys are required."
"As the current of electrons surges across the gap,
it raises the temperature of the spark channel to 60,000 K."
(My Note: 60,000 K = 107,540.33-F)
2:
http://www.epicmashup.com/outlook/weather-news/news/articles/stunning-sun-imagery_2010-04-22?page=2
Plasma temperatures:
Red is a relatively cool (60,000 K)
Green-yellow are hotter (1,400,000 - 2,200,000 K).
3:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4A35ABlw1wgC
"Modeling engine spray and combustion processes"
4:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=AutoliteSparkplugs
Heheh, AutoLite has their own YouTube channel, who knew...
5:
http://www.greenprophet.com/2009/07/14/10523/fords-laser-spark-plugs/
"Ford To Replace Spark Plugs With Lasers by 2011"
6:
http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/084/index.s7.html
http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/SparkPlugs/index.html
How about radioactive spark plugs ? :P
7:
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&newwindow=1&num=100&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=#num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=Spark.Plug+Sintered.Aluminium.Oxide.Ceramic&fp=f707cb9b2cf6ecfc
Google search - "Spark.Plug Sintered.Aluminium.Oxide.Ceramic"
Thats enough, I'm going to bed...
.
Apples and orange, we are not making a spark plug. We are creating a plasma. the real heat comes from the gases igniting - AND we are using a much lower voltage to do this. Not a current spark gap, a push/pulled discharge that creates the ion plasma burst. Gasoline does burn hot as do many corporate fuel anwsers. But did you notice the water being push/pulled and compressed, split and the gases ignited?? It is ok to off your ideas, that final alloy that is pressured to fill the seal is only talc big mystery....... do you own oil stock or what? I suppose you should forget nay saying and find a project you can enjoy instead of destroying peoples dreams, I have noticed in many discussions across the entire forum you mainly offer only negative input, "I think I can!!!" DOES ,......
I DON'T THINK SO, only sleeps. Destroyer or creator what do you wish to be? Not all ideas come complete, 99% work, 1% thought (sometimes others thoughts) your mind is bright and learned. Beware of that which we were taught, it was designed to keep us energy slaves. Many theories are now hidden from us since the 1930's. "Read Old Books". Cooling coils are used in plasma igniters, as is chilled air so what is your objection, only in the details! Blargh! and besides when i showed you the porcelain furnaces cheap you changed to included yet another road block, then started with a "different" compound when it is well known that they used porcelain for many years. How much does big brother pay you? If he doesn't, you work for free. We been hearing what won't work all our lives, I guess we all should just quit and be happy slaves huh?
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
we are not making a spark plug.
We are creating a plasma.
You are indicating a spark plug style plasma injector.
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
the real heat comes from the gases igniting
Your point?
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
we are using a much lower voltage to do this.
Not a current spark ,
a push/pulled discharge that creates the ion plasma burst.
You will find you need a higher voltage to initiate a spark,
and then lower voltage at substantial current to sustain it.
Like all plasma cutters use.
You will also have to overcome the pressures present
in the combustion chamber to get it in there...
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
did you notice the water being push/pulled and compressed,
split and the gases ignited??
I see no basis for this conclusion at all...
This may be my fault for missing something
you've referenced somehow, sorry if I did.
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
that final alloy that is pressured to fill the seal is only talc
big mystery.......
No comment...
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
do you own oil stock or what?
Fuck no, nor would I !
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
Cooling coils are used in plasma igniters,
as is chilled air
so what is your objection
That is a whole lot different than a plasma cutter's head
it is free-hand, or machine mounted and has full access.
There is no way to cool a plug
screwed into an engine head easily.
Instead the heat will transfer to the head.
Quote from: Hope on July 28, 2010, 06:16:40 PM
when i showed you the porcelain furnaces cheap
you changed to included yet another road block,
then started with a "different" compound
when it is well known that they used porcelain for many years.
I'm not sure what you are referring to.
Of the four links you provided (#3 is still broken),
I do not see what you are eluding to.
Even the concept page you borrowed that pic from
is useless for an ICE, no safety check valve, nothing.
There is no way something like that can just be
"Piped" into a combustion chamber without danger.
"This prototype has been run at repetition rates of up to a few Hz."
You do realize what RPM that translates too, right?
Good luck with that.
And porcelain is ONLY used for the upper spark tower,
it is not, nor can it ever be used on the business end
with any of todays engines (Maybe on a lawnmower...).
Did you read even one of my above links to learn anything?
At least I entered into this knowing I knew little
about the world of spark plugs and the needed compounds
to produce one at an experimental level for proof of concept.
I researched enough to get the needed initial questions,
and contacted a few companies that do this on a daily basis
to get CORRECT information on how to proceed safely on this.
I even asked a few questions in other forums,
including a person that dealt directly with evaluating
a custom spark plug (Krupa FireStorm) that knows his stuff !
What did you do?
Not read my links,
say they are wrong,
misunderstand me totally,
trash me for the truth found.
It appears to me that you believe you know more
than the people (Above) that do this for a living
on a daily basis, I suppose you also think the quote
(Straight from a physics book) on this material is wrong too.
I left out your useless long-assed rant trashing me,
you haven't a clue what I'm about, not even close
don't think that you do, your too paranoid sir.
I AM in the habit of posting,
if I think there is an error in something I see.
And I can respect that this make me
look overly pesimistic in nature.
But that is part of what forums are about.
You borrowed and idea (and a pic),
posted a few links non-related,
and have posted no research at all.
I made a fair attempt to contribute,
and share my steps for others to follow too.
All my links are relevant,
OK, a few were for humor
(Laser spark plugs 2011, etc.).
I think your an ass,
and I will no longer contribute to this thread.
Good luck... ::)
To others, I had a good talk with Champion today,
I'll hold off a bit and start a different thread on that
when I get all of the data together by email.
(PDF Attachments)
I learned a lot from that call, this is a huge safety issue.
I also have not started calling plasma companies yet,
the ability to make a safe plug is first, of course...
But I believe there is a way we can make safe test plugs.
I'm rather excited about that myself ! ;D
Now I think I understand your views, my view is different. Believing in possibilities, openings, combinations, variance, obvious working knowledge (not just theory) of noted gifted people like Tesla (this list is long). This gives me a I imagine to you a to open attitude, no problem. If you have a project, an idea, lets hear it. Really this is what we all are doing, using our mass mind to overcome our now ignorance, solving/providing something we all need and we shall do it. SOON
LOL to many people I can imagine Columbus was an "ass" for not accepting false media, then I am overjoyed at being open to not quartered in thinking.........can't can't can't..... I am sure you can't so therefore no one can, this thread isn't for you only , glad you found someone else to derail because I won't buy CAN'T.. Luv you bro .... but please get rid of those "place you in a box" thinking... we understand improbable but not impossible. Also , if ANY of you have a moment and know of ways to measure different parts of circuits that will educate the rest of us, this will help the mindset move along congruently, please lets organize a topic just to teach others how to quantify their results so we all can have "baseline" data to work with. Is there a topic for pumped /captured plate theory yet? Seems like a cheaper way to capture a majority of the normally overflowed electron activity?? Stephan, thanks for you and gadgetmall's (many, many others also) encouraging efforts, for your sacrifices, which showed us possibilities undiscovered and certainly taught our open minds.
The HHO torch nozzles are cool to the touch it is said, what is your complain on an idea. This is not a topic or thread just a half bake. No build requirements, just an idea that perhaps Stan Meyers died for. Lots of wavelengths make up this place we call earth and who is to say if there may or may not be a way of using a few different wavelengths to cause atoms of H2O to separate as if their charges were repelling magnets. Dr Stiffler shows how to use a semi conductor to split distilled water of only the hydrogen atom which will make HHO production more efficient still yet, due to oxygen being so easy to just get for normal air. I know you are hear along time, but let others enjoy creative freedom. I am a digital/analog engineer but am not using those limited teaching to reach for this radiant surplus. Thank you for your comments all.
Have found further water crackers now on youtube, apparently the light burst can be within a vacuum and aimed (lensed and magnified) then also sent down the same path as the resonate frequency(s). Thus adding alot of movement pressure and should enable bringing down the overall power needed to strip the hydrogen / oxy bond at a change state. The ends of these HHO torches are cool to the touch. So this may help heat sink any temps gasoline creates, HHO cools its own metal torch (water humidity is high i guess).
Interesting topic. I don't think Compututor was really trying to block. I think he was trying to help but maybe he's thinking a little too much inside the matrix. I actually suspect talking to spark plug manufacturers will have you filtered to a person whose sole purpose is protect their huge stake in keeping the standard ICE matrix in place. Allowing alternate ideas to blossom could easily mean the end of their empire.
Quote from: CompuTutor on July 26, 2010, 11:17:48 PM
.......................
Does anyone here know of a better product
we can all (Afford to) purchase over the counter or online ?
............................
Plaster? Will that work?
I agree re-reading the topic THANK YOU COMPuTUTOR for your trying to help!
Since this gas burns at such a quick rate it produces more power, It could be that some of the other engine technologies could cause HHO dry vapor to ignite from wave-building lensed laser static. But since HHO is the king of thermo expansion with water/oxy assist we will also obviously benefit from using this heat further with the normal sciences at hand even. We can also do this with our HHO assisted dino burners, and I feel with something like a Laser pulse shot as a "heater/exciter" to a spot on the end of the plug "the collector" it would be simpler than the first half-baked idea, injection of HHO is already simple. Can a plasma burst be lensed thru a quartz or other type lens and directed into each chamber thru Optic cables (you can wood burn thru them I know already) This would keep the sealed ignitors away from the combustion better. Then we could fire all our fuels at zero degrees. Or even simpler yet totally convert to HHO and even your normal spark ignition can be adjusted to work just fine. In the long run a thermo silica battery will be a DIY method to store that energy with over 90% reported efficiency. Grown crystal plugs, if this becomes the standard the method is already a working science.
After reading Rosemary, Smoky2, Davids remarks on the shock pulse caused by disrupting a magnetic focus with a 3 dollar laser, shock waves look promising to compress the gas into friction ignition.
Plaster, ummm baked ceramic plaster would be better.
After sitting back a few months and re reading this thread. I can see I was being overly negative at Compututors assistance. HHO burns at a cooler temp and this may make these discussed compound feasible still yet.