Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[DaveBrit]

Wow, It's Quiet in here.
Where did everybody go?   

They caught the last train to the Coast...
The day, the music died !!

[TinselKoala]

I've been doing some more musings on the excellent question minnie asked about the pump power requirement. There is a lot to think about there. And it's absurd of Mister Wayne to claim that the question has no relevance to the Zed or Hydro power system.

From the question... how much water (gravity) at a head of 10 meters, would be required to run a 2250 psi, 22 gallon per minute pump.... I was able to derive a value of about 21.5 kiloWatts of mechanical power, equivalent to 3500 gallons per minute or about 58 gallons per second at 10 meters (32.8 feet) of head. A pretty good waterfall indeed. (2250 psi is a pressure head of nearly a statute mile.)

And sure enough, 22 gpm x 5197.5 feet = 114345 gal-feet/min, and 3500 gpm x 32.8 feet = 114800 gal-feet/minute... the calculation checks out, within rounding error.

Now consider what that means for a power generator system. We know how big a 20kW electrical generator is and what kind of horsepower it takes to turn it. There have been no claims of any special electrical efficiencies in Mister Wayne's system, have there ... so that means, in a 20 kW output Hydro Differential Pressure Exchange System using a Rotary Zed... or any other thing whatsoever... _something_ must be turning the shaft of that generator with a mechanical power greater than 20 kW (around 27 horse (or unicorn) power). And in a Mister Wayne HDPERZ system, unless I am mistaken, the thing that turns the generator/generators is a hydraulic motor/motors.

And those motors are turned by hydraulic fluid flowing at pressure. How much flow, how much pressure? Well....we have that, from Minnie's question. Since hydraulic fluid is somewhat less dense than water, we need correspondingly more gallons per minute at the same pressure as water, to make the same mechanical power as water. Right? So, if 22 gpm of water at 2250 psi requires 21.5 kW of mechanical power, then Skydrol with a density of 0.88 will require 22 gals/0.88 or 25 gallons per minute, flowing at 2250 pounds per square inch of pressure to make the same mechanical power. This mechanical power must be "NET"... that is, it must be what the hydraulic motor delivers to the generator, _AFTER_ whatever advantage of 960 percent or whatever is supplied within the HDPERZ system itself.

So... somewhere in Mister Wayne's 20 kW system, gravity powered, shifting the weight of a few pounds of water around....or hundreds of pounds or several tons of water, whatever.... there must be something that will result in enough hydraulic fluid flowing at a rate and pressure equivalent to somewhat more than 20 kW of mechanical power. More than 25 gallons per minute at 2250 psi....

By the way, 2250 psi of water corresponds to a pressure head of......
h=2.31 x (psi) / density
or 5197.5 feet for water
or 5906 feet for Skydrol.

  ( http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-head-pressure-d_663.html  )

Twenty five gallons of Skydrol, per minute, falling down from a height of over a statute mile. (Or pumped up to that pressure and flow rate by the.... the...... the system of rams in a HDPERZ?)

Is there something wrong with my numbers or reasoning? I am afraid I simply do not understand how something like the animation of the Zed system on Mister Wayne's websites could possibly produce anything like a flow of hydraulic fluid of 25 gpm at a mile of pressure head to turn its generator. Can anyone who DOES understand the system explain this power generation requirement to me?

Did Minnie ever get a straight answer about the size of a HDPE unit that would run his house?

(ETA: Several sources on the internet tell me that a modern 3-BR house will require somewhere between 18 and 24 kW, depending on the number of appliances etc. Mister Wayne has said that a unit to power a single home will fit in the footprint of a toolshed. I'm guessing that is going to have to be a fairly large toolshed. )

[cyber19]

Elvis has left the building! Please turn out the light!

Wow, It's Quiet in here.
Where did everybody go?   

They caught the last train to the Coast...
The day, the music died !!

[TinselKoala]

TK, 24 kw is 1 kw for 24 hours,, just thought I would let you know.

No, it is not. 24 kW is 24 kW, a measure of POWER. Run that demand for 24 hours and your utility will bill you for 576 kiloWatt-Hours of ENERGY.
1 kW (a measure of power)  for 24 hours is 24 kw-H, a measure of ENERGY.

Not the same thing at all. If this is where you are at with regards to your understanding of  POWER and ENERGY.....  I am afraid you might need to do some basic review of concepts.
You plug in an electric heater. It draws 1000 Watts. You leave it on for one hour.... you have used one kiloWatt-hour of ENERGY at an average POWER of 1000 Watts. You run your elephant jacuzzi drawing 20 kW for one hour, you have used 20 kiloWatt-HOURS of energy, and this is what you are billed for. Your home power supply must be able to power your full house demand..... between 18 and 24 kiloWATTS for a modern household. You may only need that much power for an hour..... 24 kiloWatt-HOURS of energy --- but your supply must be able to meet it on demand when you turn on your clothes dryer, your air conditioners, your entertainment system and your yard lighting, etc. all at once...putting a load of 20 kW on your supply......
Energy is always conserved. Power... instantaneous power, not necessarily conserved. By which I mean that you can apply, say, a steady 100 Watts to a motor/generator/flywheel arrangement, your instantaneous input power is 100 W. But you can draw off many kW of power from the flywheel... for a short period of time. Instantaneous power can be very high. But the total ENERGY out ... that is, the "average power" x time, will equal the total ENERGY in. Minus losses, of course.
Just thought I would let you know.

2500 psi is not a volume and the ZED puts out psi and volume, lastly your numbers would seem fair if you were only using gravity as your source then the lighter fluid could do less, but if not using gravity as your source then the difference does not matter.

2500 psi is not a volume. 22 gallons per minute is a VOLUME FLOW RATE. You can look at any number of online calculators and find the power necessary to move 22 gallons per minute at a pressure of 2500 psi (or 2250 as in the original problem.)

If the ZED is turning a generator with a hydraulic motor, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE POWER COMES FROM, from a 960 percent efficient Zed or a herd of pink unicorns .... the perfectly ordinary hydraulic motor will have to deliver 27 horsepower or a bit more to the perfectly ordinary generator shaft to make 20 kW of electrical output. And this will take a flow of hydraulic fluid of at least 25 gpm at 2250 psi. Again, there are plenty of calculators on-line that will take you to this point.

Where does the volume and pressure to drive a hydraulic motor with 27 horsepower come from? There is nothing in the animated cartoon that can do that, at the sizes and oscillation rate shown, and there is no way that a ZED, using gravity and water weight, can get that kind of power output in a footprint the size of a "tool shed"..... or in fact, at any size at all. I say that Mister Wayne's projections of being able to power a house with a Zed in a toolshed footprint are fanciful at best and impossible in practice.

Or maybe he's talking about a doll house.

TK, 24 kw is 1 kw for 24 hours,, just thought I would let you know.

Not to put too sharp a point on it... but do you then believe that 60 miles per hour is the same thing as one mile per hour, for sixty hours?
Of course not: 60 mph is a SPEED, and 1 mph for 60 h is a DISTANCE.  Exactly the same thing: a Watt is a Joule per second.
So 24 kiloJoules per second is certainly NOT 1 kiloJoules per second x 86400 seconds...... a "Joule" is not the same as a "Joule per second".

Again, this illustrates the point I tried to make earlier: if you use the UNITS in your calculations as well as the numbers, then if the units don't agree or work out algebraically, you know you've made an error.

[TinselKoala]

Funny how it is just 24kw that was being discussed but house use is in kw-H  and you talk about using the correct conventions.

Get your act together Webby. If you want to insult me or criticise me, at least be RIGHT once in a while.
House TOTAL ENERGY USAGE, what you get billed for each month, is POWER TIMES TIME.... kiloWatt-hours.
I have cited references for this.
The demand of your appliances, heaters, light bulbs, etc. is in POWER. If you turn on all the electrical drawing appliances in your house you  might draw as much as 20 kiloWatts of POWER. How much energy you use will be determined by how long you leave the stuff on.
To power a modern house you need 18 -24 kiloWATTS of service to your house.  I have cited references for this.
Look on your electric bill, you will see that you are billed not for WATTS but for WATT_HOURS. Look at the data plate of any appliance and you will see that it is rated in WATTS (or volt-amps) NOT WATT_HOURS. The amount of time you leave it on... is up to you, and that is why you have a METER on your outside wall that takes into account the TIME during which you use your appliances rated in WATTS.
If Mister Wayne wants to power a modern home his device must be able to produce 20 kiloWATTS at any instant and do that for as long as you have all your appliances turned on .....not one kW for 20 hours. This requires a generator that is capable of turning 27 horsepower of mechanical power into electrical power. This means that WHATEVER is turning the shaft of that generator has to be able to supply that amount of mechanical power, and a hydraulic motor needs the kinds of pressures and flow rates that minnie postulated in order to do that. LOOK UP HYDRAULIC MOTOR OPERATING PARAMETERS.  I did. I even found a motor that would deliver 20 HP, running on 25 gpm at between 2500 and 3000 psi. Not quite what we need to turn the generator of a 20 kW genset but close, ballpark at least. The hydraulic motor exists to do the job. The generator exists to do the job. But they have to be provided with the POWER to do the job -- equivalent to at least 25 gpm of hydraulic fluid at a density of 0.88 and a pressure of at least 2500 psi.... and that is nowhere to be found in a Zed as we have been presented it.

If the claims of Mister Wayne about power are also this muddled..... well, there it is then.

In my area the utility company has an employee who has as one of there tasks helping home owners figure out what size gen-set they need to use for power outages,, and that number is less than a 7kw system,, they said for mine I would need to have a 5 kw gen-set, but that was before the heat pump and that pump can draw a lot of power.

KiloWATTS, not kw-h. And FOR POWER OUTAGES. Are you really going to run your jacuzzi and your entertainment center and your air conditioner heat pump and your swimming pool heater during a POWER OUTAGE? No. You run your fridge and deepfreeze and the necessary lights and radios and a range element and maybe a water heater for hot showers. 7 kW is enough for that. And after a WEEK of trying to run a modern home on 7 kW.... you will really be glad when the power comes back on.
Why don't you take this series of posts and responses, starting with your " 24 kw = 1 kw for 24 hours" post over to that fellow, have him read them, and let him tell you what he thinks.

And most setups nowadays have a battery load kind of thing as well,, there are groups for just that kind of stuff and some of those people who are off the grid can get by with very little usage,, so that there solar panels are more than enough,, kind of amazing really.

Conservation is fine... and during power outages it is necessary. But ask your local home contractor, the one that is out there right now building 3 and 4 bedroom homes, what is the electrical service to the houses they are installing. If it's "seven KiloWatts".... I'll buy you a frozen pizza and a bottle of MD-20-20. If it is closer to 20 kW.... you can just chalk that up, once again....  to experience and study. This eighty-year-old house I'm sitting in right now has 16kW electrical service, and it has a gas stove and water heater !!
(yes, it's been rewired since built)


Really now..... is the "best" builder of a HDPE system we've got here -- the one that he thinks is delivering OU performance -- actually this muddled about POWER and ENERGY and the difference between them, in spite of all the information in this thread and on the internet?

ETA: Your _average_ power demand , averaged over the 720 hours in a month, may come out to one or two kilowatts ( your kW-HOURS total on the bill, divided by 720 HOURS). But your supply needs to be able to supply not your average demand, but your peak demand. That's why you don't have 4- or 8-amp circuit breakers in your breaker box, but you do have 15 amp, 20 amp, 30 amp and for the mains breakers, 80 amps.

http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/table5.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/motor_calc.htm
http://www.indianafluidpower.com/formulas.asp
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3584113