PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?

[JouleSeeker]

Good hypotheses to experiment on,  NG67.  Best wishes.

OK -- I read your PM, thanks.  I think I'll try the calorimetric method next, but your approach seems reasonable also.  Note that determining the output current is not necessarily easy in this circuit; strong AC component, for example.

[ElectroGravityPhysics.com]

But if anyone else wishes to do the experiments -- please do!  and kindly report results here.  Lots of fun, and as you say, Jim -- surprising Physics if we can confirm the effect with
1.  Repeatability
2.  Quantitative results
then 3.  Try to understand the "new"? Physics.
It may be that these simple experiments will lead to an understanding!

I fully support people â€" like many in this forum - that have an experimental leaning towards Physics.  There are just too many people chasing string theories and other hard-to-test Physics ideas.  I enjoy working with things I can build, test and then postulate a theoretical model for better understanding - and then rinse and repeat.  (smile)

To this end I would like to share this link to build a less than $10 gauss meter, so we can test the bifilar magnetic nails.  The build might not be an accurate absolute measurement of the magnetic field, but it should give an excellent relative measurement between the simple coil and bifilar configuration.

http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magmeter.htm

There are plenty of gauss meters on the market â€" even on eBay, but they usually run $200 and up.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1312&_nkw=DC+gauss+meter&_sacat=See-All-Categories

PS  I “regret” I am going on vacation for a few weeks, so I will sadly be away from my lab.  But, keep up the good work; I look forward to seeing  Dr. Jones calorimetric tests while I am traveling.

-Nils

[JimU]

The single wound core has an Capacitance of 0.34 pF, while the bifilar wound one has a capacitance of 1.02 pf (three times as much).

This indicates that besides current, the bifilar coil stores 3 times more voltage field (potential field).

This could mean that although we seem to input the same amount of current, the bifilar is acting like to charge a -larger- 1.02 pF capacitor, and thus would ' in a time-varying way ' use more energy momentarily.

Nevertheless, after being charged, there appears to be more B-field strength with the bifilar style wind.

Possible reasons:
-------------------

1) The domains in the material (nail) might get a 'harder' turn than in a conventional way, resulting in a more uniform shape and as such result in a higher B-field strength ?
2) The potential field tension is able to -help- increase the B-field strength (this would be contrary to the belief that -only- current is responsible for the buildup of a magnetic field) ?
3) It takes time for the 'electricity' (magnetic field) to go from start to end of the wire.... in the bifilar wind, the first wind of the series, induces an emf in the second wind of the series. This induced emf might increase B-field strength ?
4) I'm sure there might be a few more scenarios to think of ?

For each of the above, there could be thought of a test to find out which of them could be causing said effect.

In any case, the bifilar wind takes more energy during the saturation buildup  time of the coil. (Do the nails test again, and wind an extra different wind on the nail and connect a scope with single shot on it).  To make it more interesting, do it again, but now use straws instead of nails :-)

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NextGen67

Hi NextGen67,

      Good find on the higher capacitance of the bi-filar wound coil.  This is
actually the point of Tesla's patent on such windings, for AC currents.

      Per your #2 above, on thinking about the different capacities of the two
winding types, and even though the "current" should be the same in each,
the bifilar winding should pack more charge into the windings than the normal
winding would.  This is the definition of a capacitor after all.  And interestingly,
the magnetic field strength in a solenoid comes from the amount of charge
circulating in the coil.  Since there is more charge packed into the coil due
to the higher capacity (at the given EMF), there should be a higher magnetic
field generated.  So, a new application of old physics.  Interestingly, even if,
per Dr. Jones' suggestion to put a standard-wound and bifilar-wound
coil in series to do this test, thereby certifying the same current in each coil,
we would still have larger "current" in the bifilar-wound coil due to its higher
capacity.  So, this could really be about charge distribution of a current flow, a
second-order effect on the normal way of looking at current in a DC circuit.

Regards,     Jim

[nul-points]

The single wound core has an Capacitance of 0.34 pF, while the bifilar wound one has a capacitance of 1.02 pf (three times as much).

This indicates that besides current, the bifilar coil stores 3 times more voltage field (potential field).

This could mean that although we seem to input the same amount of current, the bifilar is acting like to charge a -larger- 1.02 pF capacitor, and thus would ' in a time-varying way ' use more energy momentarily.
[...]
NextGen67

hi NextGen

i don't think that capacitance values of the order of 1pF are going to contribute much to the energy stored in these windings at DC and a few volts - the inductance will likely have the most significant contribution to energy stored (as shown by data provided in earlier link comparing one regular and one bifilar coil)


Steven, i hope you are enjoying your vacation - and if so, then why are you reading this?!? 

i said i'd post an update with data from my test combining my inverted looped variant of your SJ1 circuit with one of my DIY voltage cells

as you can see from the on-load terminal voltage graph below, the results have become quite interesting over the last 200 hours of continuous operation!

it's looking hopeful for another 'self-sustaining' system with one of my DIY cells 

as always, i'll keep you posted
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

[NextGen67]

hi NextGen

i don't think that capacitance values of the order of 1pF are going to contribute much to the energy stored in these windings at DC and a few volts - the inductance will likely have the most significant contribution to energy stored (as shown by data provided in earlier link comparing one regular and one bifilar coil)
<...>
np

@nul-points

the inductance will likely have the most significant contribution to energy stored (as shown by data provided in earlier link comparing one regular and one bifilar coil)

Do you refer to the document 'VOLTGN.pdf' on page 38, reply #556 on this topic? Because they show in that document that in both cases, the inductance is the same -nearly- at 208uh and 205uH for single and bifilar wind coil.

Also remember that -for any coil in resonance- the energy stored in the system sloshes back and forth between the Capacitor and Coil. This means that at one moment in time, ALL the energy is stored in the coil, and at another moment in time, ALL the energy is stored in the CAPACITOR. Do not let the small value reading of a capacitor fool you, as the same amount of energy is stored in it, as in the -much larger valued- coil. We could say an E-field stores Energy more compact than an B-field -when both contain the same amount of energy-.

When a coil is in self resonance, it's energy slashes back and fort between the coil and it's internal capacitors.

Sadly their document did not show any B-field strength measurements. I will do the same test later on, and will include some B-field measurements.

However, going from the belief that the B-field indeed increased, one might reason this:

The amount of voltage field that the bifilar wind coil can store is three (3) times as much as compared to the standard wind, but this comes at the cost of a particular lowering of the frequency of the coil [ StdCoilFreq/sqr(3) ]. So although the coil would produce or store more B-field, it could do this only at a cost of reduced frequency.

The above paragraph also implies that as the voltage field is three times as much, likewise the coil MUST have the capability to store this three times more energy, else there would be no self resonance!

Energizing any coil with -continuous- DC will only result in energizing the coil up to its saturation point (the maximum amount of energy the coil can hold). After that, any more applied DC will be 'lost' energy, as this is not stored in the coil anymore.

Once we charge a capacitor, the charge will stay there forever if we disconnect the source (assuming a perfect capacitor).

Once we charge a coil, the charge will be rapidly lost when we disconnect the source.

So, one might say we can store AND hold an E-field, but we cannot store AND hold an B-field.

What happens if we 'charge' the -internal- capacitors contained inside a coil, and then remove our source... will the charge now also stay in the 'capacitors', even tough the B-field is rapidly collapsing ?

What happens if we charge a 'contra connected' bifilar coil? This type coil has ZERO inductance (even with thousands of winds), but it does has capacitance. So we could only 'charge' the coil through meaning of E-field, and presumably, there would be NO B-field formed by the coil itself - tough the material containing the coil might do so?-

This might be food for a new topic. If my measurements are interesting, a new topic might be started on this.

@ JimU

Correct. Some of my coming experiments will focus on that -but keep in mind I work on multiple projects and have a 'normal family life' besides it also-. I am particularly interested in the zero inductance high capacitance toroid coil measurements. But I would need to measure the energizing propagation speed of a bifilar -high inductance-  versus a bifilar 'zero inductance' toroid coil, while both have the same amount of turns and wire length.

As a minor note:

... thereby certifying the same current in each coil, we would still have larger "current" in the bifilar-wound coil due to its higher capacity.' ...

That would be: we would still have larger (more) ENERGY in the bifilar-wound coil due to its higher capacity.

Anyhow, as this is a side topic, better focus back to Steven his sj1 device.

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NextGen67