PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?

[ltseung888]

Dear Prof. Jones,

Thank you for your reply and the hard work on Mean, Peak-to-peak and rms values.  It was pointed out to me by the United Nation Experts that my FLEET prototypes showed standing wave characteristics in March 2011.  Standing wave is a characteristic of resonance.  In order to compare the energy content of a standing wave, we need to consider the peak-to-peak values.  (All perfect standing waves have a mean value of zero. If we use the mean for comparison, we would get the result that all prototypes are equal!)

Sorry that I am re-opening the discussion again.  I now firmly take the side of the United Nations Experts.  The peak-to-peak power waveform MUST be considered when we deal with standing waves in resonance.  The FLEET waveforms are NOT perfect standing waves but they are actual experimental results.  Our work in Hong Kong was not wasted.

Please refer to the following article:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7434-lee-tseung-lead-out-bring-energy-theory-4.html#post137594

Please read reply 108, 114 and 115.

In the reply 108, we have the comparison of the Input and Output Power waveforms.  Note that the Output Power Waveform is a standing wave.  The sampling of the oscilloscope is fast enough to capture and display the two waves travelling in opposite directions on the same wire.

Such a standing wave has the classic node and antinode (maximum amplitude and minimum amplitude).  As shown, that standing wave is not a perfect standing wave but it is a captured actual experimental wave.

This particular standing wave is a result of resonance.  At resonance of LCR circuits, it is possible for the pulsing energy from the circuit to bring-in the Electron Motion of the orbiting electrons (dipoles).  That pulsing order changed the random orientation of the dipoles to a more ordered orientation.  The net magnetic effect of the dipoles is no longer random and can be compared with oscillating magnets.

Experimentally, when we see standing waves in LCR circuit setups, we know that some type of resonance may be taking place.  The other common wave form at resonance is pure sine waves no matter the source of pulsing.

Lawrence Tseung
Director
Help Seedlings Innovate Foundation Limited

[JouleSeeker]

  Lawrence, please be clear -- let's start here:  are you saying that you take the peak-to-peak (PP) input voltage (not the battery voltage) and multiply that times the PP input current through a resistor, to evaluate the input power?  (And similarly, for the output power?)
   
   Also, have you ever evaluated Pinput using the capacitor/time method?  (Described above, but I would be glad to summarize if you wish.)  This method is considered very reliable for determining input power, and could be compared with your PP method to assess its accuracy.

[poynt99]

Lawrence,

You appear to be confused between the MEAN value of a voltage wave form, and the MEAN value of a power wave form; they are not the same.

Yes, the MEAN of a perfectly symmetrical sine wave voltage is zero. But remember that voltage times current is power, and the PRODUCT is what needs to be averaged, not the individual voltage and current.

If a circuit is either receiving or using power, the PRODUCT (v x i)(t) will not be symmetrical above and below zero as you are showing; there will always be some asymmetry. When you take the MEAN of this result, you will obtain the average power used or received.

.99

[ltseung888]

  Lawrence, please be clear -- let's start here:  are you saying that you take the peak-to-peak (PP) input voltage (not the battery voltage) and multiply that times the PP input current through a resistor, to evaluate the input power?  (And similarly, for the output power?)
   
   Also, have you ever evaluated Pinput using the capacitor/time method?  (Described above, but I would be glad to summarize if you wish.)  This method is considered very reliable for determining input power, and could be compared with your PP method to assess its accuracy.

Dear Prof. Jones and Poynt99,

Let me recite the discussion with the United Nations Expert again.  The basic arguments were:

1.   In using the oscilloscope method, we should capture and analyze every detail including the voltage waveform, the current waveform and the power waveforms.  Their shapes and relations are important in any understanding and analysis.
2.   Once we detect a standing wave â€" does not matter whether that is a voltage, current or power waveform, we know that some resonance effect is taking place.
3.   From the vigorous theoretical model (reference the debate with Milehigh), a piston hitting a ball moving towards it will transfer some kinetic energy from the piston to the ball.  A ball hitting the piston from behind will transfer some kinetic energy from the ball to the piston.  If the pulsing is correct, more energy can be transferred from the balls to the piston!  This mathematical model explains sympathetic vibration perfectly.
4.   The random motion of the air molecules can be changed into a pulsed order.  This pulsed order can transfer more energy from the air molecules to the vibrating tuning forks.  This is correct physics.  This occurs at resonance.
5.   The resonance of LCR circuits will act on similar physics and mathematics.  In this case, the random orientation of the dipoles is comparable to the random motion of the air molecules.  The Electron Motion energy of the Orbiting Electrons is transferred (brought-in) into the device as compared to the kinetic energy of the Air Molecules.
6.   Multiple tuning forks sound louder and last longer.  Multiple LCR circuits may even being-in enough electron motion energy to power a Steven Mark type device.

That was the basis that the United Nations Group wanted us to conduct a couple of workshops or seminars.  The FLEET prototypes with power waveforms showing standing waves would be key features in such workshops or seminars.  The new results from my group will include every detail in point 1 as they are all important in the understanding.  In other words, the raw data must be preserved and presented in its entire state.  How one interprets them may be different from different points of view!

Harvey Gramm and wife Catlady visited me some weeks back.  He finally realized the importance of resonance.  Within two weeks of his visit, he sent me waveforms indicating resonating secondary LCR circuits.  But I shall not steal his thunder here.

My 13 year old student helper, Michael Du, already has something similar but I shall wait for the arrival of oscilloscopes to confirm his results before posting.

May God guide us all in our efforts to benefit the World.

[forest]

ltseung888
Very nice, now close the lopp and measure true power dissipation from battery.
Where is your thread to continue discussion ?