Overunity and Magnet motors why I fear it won't work

[TEguy]

I have the sneaking suspicion that a magnet motor even if self-sustaining will never be an overunity machine. If magnets lasted forever this would have been a different story. I hope someone with the necessary knowledge will reply to clear this for me and everyone else. To me a magnet is like a battery. You create it and you charge it. It takes then some time for the magnet to return to its original state with its original properties i.e. no magnetic flux. Just like a battery it will go "flat". If you leave it sitting in the cupboard it will take a very long time. If you use it to do some work it will take shorter time to go flat. The question I want answered is: How much energy is required to create a magnet with particular properties? If this magnet was then used to create electrical energy for example in a device which was self-sustaining and 100% efficient, will the magnet manage to create that same amount of energy before it goes flat? It seems like a logical idea that the magnet will only produce as much energy in its lifetime as was used to create it, and that is if it is used in a machine that is 100% efficient. I am unsure about this and wish someone knew the answer.

[Liberty]

I have the sneaking suspicion that a magnet motor even if self-sustaining will never be an overunity machine. If magnets lasted forever this would have been a different story. I hope someone with the necessary knowledge will reply to clear this for me and everyone else. To me a magnet is like a battery. You create it and you charge it. It takes then some time for the magnet to return to its original state with its original properties i.e. no magnetic flux. Just like a battery it will go "flat". If you leave it sitting in the cupboard it will take a very long time. If you use it to do some work it will take shorter time to go flat. The question I want answered is: How much energy is required to create a magnet with particular properties? If this magnet was then used to create electrical energy for example in a device which was self-sustaining and 100% efficient, will the magnet manage to create that same amount of energy before it goes flat? It seems like a logical idea that the magnet will only produce as much energy in its lifetime as was used to create it, and that is if it is used in a machine that is 100% efficient. I am unsure about this and wish someone knew the answer.

Well, if a magnet is like a battery, it has some way of recharging itself. 

If a magnet is used in an alternator, after it is used to induce power in the windings of an alternator, it should be 'flat' after generating the same amount of power that it took to make the magnet if it were a battery. 

If a magnet that is used in a motor, were to go 'flat' after using the equivalent amount of electromagnetic power that it would take to make a motor run, then it would act like a battery.  If it runs longer than that, then it is nothing like a battery.  Most neo magnets should far outlast our lifetime if not stressed with an overly strong nearby magnetic field (so strong that it stresses the alignment of the magnetic domain in the magnet), while in use.  The lesson here is to not run the magnets too hard, so that is does not degrade the internal integrity of the magnet.

You should look at a magnetic motor (motor that has windings and magnets).  They run for a very long time without going flat.  They warn as long as you don't run excessive current through the windings (creating too strong of a magnetic field to work with the magnets) then the magnets do not degrade and will last a long time.  There is a point at which you can run magnets continuously without degrading them.  There is also a point where you can degrade the magnets by subjecting them to a magnetic field that overpowers and destroys the magnetic domain orignally set up in the magnet.

Magnets are not linear in function, but exponential.

Liberty

[Gregory]

I agree with Liberty. A magnet is not like a normal electric battery.

If you leave it sitting in the cupboard it will take a very long time. If you use it to do some work it will take shorter time to go flat.

We have magnetic motors and alternators capable to work for long years in normal use. The magnets inside these machines don't go flat. They are in your hard drive, in your dvd, in your cd player... Also, if you have a magnet just place it on the handle of a window, oron your fridge, and check it after some year. If the magnet didn't receive any outsider influence, it will still there. Worked against the gravity all the time, and didn't go flat. Or put two magnets (facing the same poles each other) in a pipe, where they exactly fit in the pipe. One is floating above the other. Check it after some time, and the upper one is still floating.

How much energy is required to create a magnet with particular properties? If this magnet was then used to create electrical energy for example in a device which was self-sustaining and 100% efficient, will the magnet manage to create that same amount of energy before it goes flat?

The magnet always do the same work in every second. But the strongest point of the magnetic field is inside the magnetic material. So It can't do 100% the same amount of work, but It can do a given force (depending on distance) all time.
How much energy is required? I also interested in this question, but I don't know...
You can immagine a magnet better if you check its magnetic lines of force in 2d with the use of iron filings. It draws curves coming from one pole and returned to the other. When magnets made, this field was created. It can symbolize the energy closed inside the magnet.

What happens when a magnet induce electricity in a coil?
Physics usually don't say too much about this. Only say induction and usually thats all. But you can immagine particles circulating around and inside the magnetic material on the way of the flux lines. And inside the coils also there are many same particles "standing".
And these particles around the magnet, and inside the wire, they are twitting, when close enough the "team" of each other. So, when you move the magnet, you also move the particles inside the wire of your induction coil. Or when you move the coil, it's almost the same.  So, not the magnets charge the coils with particles, they only move the particles due the natural "attraction" between these particles. And once they move, this can be used to do work in an electric circuit, or something.

Of course, this is only my heretic theory, I developed myself one time I tried to understand what happens. I think you never find similar explanation in a physic book, like I didn't find one.

I have the sneaking suspicion that a magnet motor even if self-sustaining will never be an overunity machine.

At last I agree with your guess:
A self sustaining magnetic motor itself is still not mean overunity in my heretic opinion. Simply you can't use all the power inside the magnets, and can't convert all the power what you can use.

Hope I helped a bit. But this is just my viewpoint, and my theory, not the same as the physics books say.

Greg

[TEguy]

To both replies above:
I know magnets can operate for long time but how long? Not forever. Magnets in your hard drive will go flat, so will the ones on your fridge door, its just a matter of time. If you suspend one magnet over another and it floats on top it is only a matter of time before it comes closer and closer until it contacts the bottom magnet. You can't ignore this fact just because it is a long period of time. Long period of time doesn't mean forever. My question was about energy required by a magnet to gain its properties and energy that can potentialy be produced by a magnet until it looses its properties.

[Liberty]

To both replies above:
I know magnets can operate for long time but how long? Not forever. Magnets in your hard drive will go flat, so will the ones on your fridge door, its just a matter of time. If you suspend one magnet over another and it floats on top it is only a matter of time before it comes closer and closer until it contacts the bottom magnet. You can't ignore this fact just because it is a long period of time. Long period of time doesn't mean forever. My question was about energy required by a magnet to gain its properties and energy that can potentialy be produced by a magnet until it looses its properties.

I understand that when a magnet is created, they use a short high power pulse to align the poles in the 'would be magnet'.  It is a fairly high power that is used, but for a fairly short time pulse, just to be strong enough to align the poles.  (I don't know how much power is used to set up a magnet, maybe someone out there does?)  Once the poles are aligned in the magnet, the integrity of the magnet is established and will last for quite some time (some say for hundreds of years perhaps), but some magnets may weaken shortly after the creation process if all of the poles don't stay aligned (may depend on the material in the magnet)??  Of course no person lives that long to tell if it is true).  A strong magnetic field can weaken the alignment of the magnet if it is close enough and strong enough to 'overpower' the alignment within it.  (Just in the same way the magnet was created to start with, by realigning or scrambling the direction of the pole alignment.)

That is why I say that as long as you don't subject a permanent magnet to a stronger magnetic field that is disruptive to it's internal integrity, it will probably remain and continue to be a magnet for quite some time (meaning probably beyond your lifetime).  Even if used in a motor.  The type of magnet material also determines the length of life and it's strength.

Old speakers in old radios and tv's from the days when tubes were used, still usually work, or if they fail, it is due to paper cone damage, I have never seen one fail due to a magnet failure in my lifetime and probably won't.  I still have a 1940 Airline (Wards shortwave radio that uses tubes that still works well).

Here is a Q&A on magnets that might answer some of your questions:
http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/FAQs_frames/FAQs_2.htm#howperm