Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells

[triffid]

I hope to find the reason why 1 out of 6 or 12 cells is stronger than the others.I cannot tell a difference from the outside.
So I tried to brainstorm a little.It appears that oxalic acid makes better connections?Between the crystal lattice and the electrodes?Double the epsom salts should give me more casimir plates.No ?? about that.
I tried acetic acid  in some cells and it ate up the magnesium real bad.I tried buttermilk with acetic acid and it still ate them up real bad.
When I read that oxalic acid is 3000 times stronger than acetic acid.I wanted to try a tiny,tiny amount of it and the dandelion solution popped up in the literature.While I like volts,I like amps better.triffid

[Peanutbutter29]

In an odd mood so I feel I should spit out some results of lots of time, which I suppose normally I wouldn't.  Maybe it will show I truly do want to help.

First and foremost, I have over 60 hours of translating Zamboni's work and am going to list, for the first time that I know of, how these were really made.  Again not normal for me, but weird mood.  Also, I would like to add (totally 100% not being snooty, seriously) I will back what I list here with 100.00 dollars to anyone who can prove this to be wrong.  Only reason, I know most think I'm prolly nuts and an ass here;  I want you to believe this if nothing else I've said or ever will say.

Design 1: (history records Gold and Silver) this was in fact copper (gold) and tin (silver) or an alloy of tin or zinc.  These were separated by 2 pieces of paper, one of which was damp, the other dry.  I showed this in a video calling it Duluc, but noting it was modified. 

**Key note, the whole reason Gold and Silver were referred, was from a prior inventor's design; a Mr. Jean Baptista Biot.  Whom did actually make a pile of real gold and silver.  This is where zamboni started from and thus why he referred to them as such.

Design 2: (he refers gold and silver) this was in fact Carbon (gold) and Tin (silver) or an alloy of tin or zinc.  This improvement offered up to 2x the first design and required only 1 paper separator.  Starch was used to glue the 2 materials together.  You can see this on you tube if you search zamboni pile.  There is an italian one who went to the same university and shows this exact design.  **This was short lived.

Design 3: (he refers gold and silver) this was in fact Manganese (gold) and Tin (silver) or an alloy of tin or zinc.  Same design and starch glue from above, but with manganese powder.

**Note, the reason they tried manganese powder (first volta then suggested to zamboni) is it was mined along with "coal" that he and volta were currently using.  They called this new material "Black Oxide of Coal".  Unbeknownst to them, it was in fact Manganese Dioxide.

Design 4: (he refers gold and silver) this was in fact Zinc Sulfate (gold) and Tin (silver) or an alloy of tin or zinc.  I must note here he begins to call the Tin glued with starch to "writing paper", "silver paper" and the beginning of confusion;  along with the fact he always counter refers to these as gold and silver, after Mr. Biot.  The Zinc Sulfate was infused into the writing paper of the time (be sure you know wood wasn't used for 60 more years);  this paper was already bonded with starch to the "silver" to make the "silver paper".  This was allowed to dry to crystallization; then constructed.  He realized that the Zinc sulfate, NOT reactive with Tin;  still made a + electrostatic charge relative to the Tin.  He thus concluded this a battery type too.

Design 5: (he refers gold and silver) this was in fact A whole pot load of substances (gold) and Tin (silver) or an alloy of tin or zinc.  Basically here, he tried every thing possible he could find to, create an additional Pile or cell.  THIS is where the fallacy of Honey, milk and other items come in.  Honey was actually the only one he noted to Oppose the action and totally ruin the cell.  He tried every substance and resinous substance "not totally dry" to see what worked. 
    This design most specifically refers then, to wax or preferably olive oil.   So we have, Gold and silver being, Olive oil and Tin, an alloy of tin or zinc.  The silver paper (again; tin an alloy of tin or zinc, starch glued to paper) was soaked in this oil or hot wax and allowed time to dry.  He noted these materials, Excluding honey;  would all give a - electrostatic charge relative to Silver (tin an alloy of tin or zinc).

Design 6 "The Perpetual Electromotor" (he refers gold and silver) this was in fact, what he considered 2 Piles (cells) in 1.  These were the cells used for the Perpetual Clock AND the Electric bell.  Yes the one's that have run for 150 years.  I will be idiotically specific here; again from a weird mood.  So, here we have first the silver;  which is in fact Tin an alloy of tin or zinc.  There were 2 types manufactured at that time (know there are 2 types of tin white and gray);  The first was a powder brushed on paper and would NOT work.  The second was real Tin foil, this was good.  This was starch glued onto paper and created the "silver paper" to start.
     Next, this paper was submerged or painted (with a brush) with a solution of Zinc Sulfate.  This Zinc Sulfate was reagent grade only and was dissolved until saturation with Heated water (by the fire ,lol).  Then, he took his manganese dioxide mined locally and ground it up on a "wet stone" and let dry.  He added some of this manganese powder to the hot salt mix (be careful );  enough to "tint the solution black".  This was the solution that was soaked with or brushed onto the "silver paper".  Now as these dry, the manganese forms a layer the the surface when the salt crystallizes. 
    Next, he put more dry manganese powder on  this crusty manganese layer sitting above the salt saturated paper, glued to the Silver (tin, alloy, etc).  He used a piece of leather (smooth side, to save you time ), to burnish the manganese powder onto the blackish salty surface;  to created a full manganese layer.  You must cover all salt so it's only manganese; and the powder needs ground finer if, from bulk ebay.  This then formed, what we now know is a cell; but he considered inter-junctions of 2. 

**Please note first, because of the suggestion of Zinc being the silver paper plate (though he never actually used it);  this means Zamboni IS, IS, IS the creator of both the first dry cell and the Zinc Carbon Cell.  Look it up, Manganese dioxide, zinc sulfate (later) and zinc.   Greatness point of this man #25, lol.

**Please note second, he was using fully crystallized zinc sulfate (e.g. electrolyte) and thus;  is the first inventor of the Crystal Cells we are working on.  NOT Huthinson or (the other guy I can't think of, lol). 

**Please note third, he said it was possible to use Potassium Hydroxide instead of Zinc sulfate; though (with tin an alloy or zinc) this would make it chemically react-able and thus NOT perpetual.  Please realize then, Zinc plus Potassium hydroxide plus manganese dioxide;  equals our modern Alkaline.  Yup, this Tesla like man did this PRE 1820!!!  FTW!  Greatness point #27!

***Super note;  Please, re-read my documentation on the electrolysis (charging) of Epsom with Al and C;  look also at the electrode potentials of these.  What Zamboni did with Tin and Zinc Sulfate is EXACTLY the same as MgSO4 and Al with C.  I cannot stress this enough!  To explain specifically here, Manganese is our Carbon analog;  eg +.  Tin is our Aluminum Analog;  why?  Because with the electrolytes;  Mg will not react with Al and Sn will not react with Zn.  Okay, but like I showed with electrolysis (charging) it CAN react and charge. 
   WHAT this means is;  Zamboni's choice of Tin with ZnSo4 an Mn02 means (Zamboni, refers to this action as well) he created the SAME scenario as I investigated; to help understand.  So, Zambonis' final design (for the bell and clock) was actually CHARGING the Tin / Zinc sulfate interaction to produce Tin sulfate (similarly to AL MgSO4 earlier).   Meaning, as he stated; if left to sit;  would regain partial power.  Eg.  In operation (from what we know now) the cell was providing power from Tin and Mn;  but also charging from Zinc to Tin.  When you disconnect the circuit.  Tin sulfate will reduce to Zinc sulfate, thus charging the primary Tin / MnO2 cell.   Thus Zamboni ALSO invented the first rechargeable cells;  OMW!!
(Proof for this is with the university to house his perpetual clock.  Started, 90 beats....after 100 years slowed to 45 beats.   It was disconnected and later started again producing 60 beats!)

**Please note Fifth, All, I repeat, ALL of his cells REQUIRED humidity to some degree.  They didn't have hygrometers then, so he could tell for sure by %.  He gave many specifics, which I will  provide.  First, he made the cells in the winter for lower humidity;  for later use in the summer.  Winter gave, at best, 1/4 of the voltage in summer.   If you made a cell in summer with high humidity it wouldn't work at all in the winter. If it was completely dried (by the fire) it wouldn't work in any time of the year. 

**Please note Sixth, he gave methods to make the cell at proper humidity even summer.  You could place a new cell in 1 Cu Ft. volume with CaCl2 (yes desiccant in 1820) for a couple of days until you got the right moisture.  He only noted, if you got too much electroscope deflection with too few of cells;  it was too wet. 

**Please note seventh, He said no 2 cells ever performed the same, no matter how hard he tried to make them even.  Humidity was a big factor; along with stacking.  If they were too wet, then they wouldn't last as long.  Too dry and you get no output. 
 
**Please note eight, Once at optimal humidity (by electroscope per number of cells) he sealed them.  This was just as much to contain moisture as it was to prevent an increase from outside.

*Lastly with notes here, I have neglected one piece in his final design;  though shown to a keen eye or a quick read through his Italian books.  I will only say, if you note, there are NO modern cells stacked "internally" to more than one cell.  That is because it has been impossible.  Stacking multiple cell components (without wires) is called a Bipolar cell.  These were first (lol) re-patented in 1997-now.  There are only 3 companies that have bipolar cells and it is the future of rechargeable cells.  So, we are just now mastering a principle Zamboni perfected;  in 1820 as "new....Sigh.  But yes, he too invented the first Bipolar cells!

Please, please read through this carefully and know it's 100% fact, from Zamboni;  in his books.  Again, I will offer 100.00 to proof of being incorrect, so please accept what it is as truth.  I have the translations directly from his books and there are no assumptions shown above.  He was a master of his day and far ahead of his time like tesla. 

When I used to do research, we always joked about "nothing being new in 100years and that we've only mastered fire".  I always chuckle how true that always proves.  Sure, Computers n' such, but the basis for those things were founded a while before completion..

Some other side notes:
Try and always look at possible chemical reactions first.  If a reaction is possible or involved, then maximum power is directly related to reaction rate.  This can be between both electrolyte-electrolyte interaction or dissimilar metal interaction.  That doesn't mean there is nothing left to be found chemically, though. 

Also, keep in mind there are a lot of  metals that are amphoteric;  which can react with both alkaline and acids. Adding hydroxides or other alkalines (carbonates, borax, etc) to acids (sulfates, chlorides, etc) will cause tertiary reactions.  EG- Conductivity pastes, typically comprised of Carbon or oxides and alkaline substances and polymers.  If these are added to acids; you get tertiary reactions. 

Amphoterism is a good thing to consider and why most modern cells use alkaline materials as opposed to acids.  Take Manganese Dioxide.  With an acid, its' reduced to an oxate of Manganese releasing H20;  whereas in an alkaline it's reduced  to Hydroxide, not releasing water.  These are key points in design.

Also, one should consider the Absolute or Equilibrium humidity of salts.  This is the point at which salts become wet.  This is also related to the hygroscopic nature of salts.  E.G-  in a sealed container, that is the humidity the salts will equalize too.  So, even in an environment of lower humidity;  salts can be higher.  Just another factor that can help or hurt.   

Sorry to ramble as usual, but I figured I might as well point out things, being in weird mood.  I believe this to be the first recording of the correct assembly of zamboni's cells on the net so far.  But hey, i hope it helps someone with ideas;  and It saves others a lot of time trying to translate all his works. 

I really do hope this helps for some and also clears up any further Zamboni cell confusion. 

Thanks

[PhiChaser]

@ PB: WOW!!
Man, this is a lot to try and uptake in the AM. Fantastic research there, I copied it and have saved it for posterity (titled ZamboniDiscourse heh...).
Thanks! We need to give this Zamboni guy a party or something...
Charging experiments underway here.
Non-charged (control) cells seemed to settle down to around 0.65v (and falling to under 0.4v) no matter what the mix ratio; Good fact to verify. I think PB was trying to tell me as much several pages ago; That the potential between the Al and C will only give me so much juice using epsom (to carry the charge between them, or to actually 'charge' them?). Am I there yet  ??
Lack of enough batteries is going to make this part of the experiment a bit slower. I really need a DC smart charger...
With the 6v lantern batteries I can get the cells charged to over 2.25v no problem, but I will have to wait and see how well they hold the charge (and the upper charging limits).
Fine carbon and/or aluminum powder looks like an electrolyte additive I should be searching for? Add a pinch of Borax to the mix? I need some tertiary reactions... LOL!! Okay, that was meant to be serious.
I tried a (corn) 'starch' cell but it is too wet (after three days) so I will have to try that one using less water...
Um... I need more coffee.

Amazing research again PB, WTG!! It also goes to show that in order to move forward we need to 'retrace our steps' so we can see where we've been. We need a national Zamboni Day or something...

Happy experimenting,
PC

[b_rads]

nice video B_rads!  I wonder if that's the simplest method to make power if crap had hit the fan, lol.  I'd seen the wiki on those and Al having a good power density.  I noted the AlOH being an issue with em.  Although the Acid alkaline version looked very nice!

I'm curious,  how long are you getting before they poof?  Are you seeing the Electrolyte dry before the Hydroxide kills the cell;  or does the gel kill em?  Not sure how long that whole process takes.

Thanks

In previous testing of this cell, I would let the cell completely dry and the output would cease.  Rehydrate and the process starts all over again.  It usually took 8 to 10 hours before the cells would stop lighting the joule thief LED.  This process can be repeated many times.  A youtuber (slider) suggested that I sit them in a bath and let them wick.  I have done this and they are now going 4 days, however the voltage and current has dropped.  Three cells started at (cumulative) 3V @ 100mA.  They are now reading .98V @ 40mA.  I think the hydroxide is catching up with this setup.  I like that I can let them dry and power them up at will.  This method gets me closer to original outputs than the constant load method.

Your last post is a lot to absorb in one reading.  I will reread again (many times I am certain) to fully comprehend what your have said.  I value your contributions here and welcome your input on anything I present to the group.   

Brad S

[triffid]

Once again PB I will say Im glad you are on our team here!I am glad to know that honey will not work.Too many times confusion enters the picture and we are led astray.It is a good idea of course to allow a cell to rest to recharge itself.I have seen the idea elsewhere here at ou.com.Of course they don't make them that way,to sell to you and me.


I had four cells of my dandelion cells hooked up in series running an led overnight.I took voltages and amp readings this morning .I got 3.34 volts and .75 mAs.So four cells hooked up in series are making 2.25 milliwatts.


Once again .75 mAs is very good for my cells.About triple of what I normally get.


triffid