Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells

[PhiChaser]

Evening all,
Since I started the whole 'charging' thing on a batch of 5 cells I charged three out of the 5. Let's call them A, B, C, D, and... R. Just kidding. Okay, D and E (not R) are the 'control' cells for this particular batch. I am not charging them at all, simple enough, with me so far? Good!
The first cell (A) I charged using two 6volt lantern batteries. I originally hooked them up in parallel then switched over to having them hooked up in series so cell A got a little of both (20/80???). This cell got unhooked after three hours (or thereabouts).
Cell B got hooked up in series for about six hours. This cell was never connected in parallel.
Cell C was hooked up only in parallel for about ten (?) hours. This cell was never connected in series. That was the last pic I posted showing the 2.50volts. It sits above two volts now...
D and E were not connected to the 6v batteries at all. Again, D and E are the controls...
After the voltage/amperage readings I did a voltage recovery test on cell C (keep reading in other words)...

A - 1.39v falling to around 1.15v - 230uA falling to under 5uA in minutes
B - 0.58v falling to 0.57v (steady voltage if low) - 90uA falling to around 60uA in minutes
C - 2.05v steady (currently reading 2.00 after discharge test) - 1.1mA falling to 35uA in minutes
D and E 0.68v and 0.71v respectively - Both 23uA falling to under 10uA in minutes

Next test was a recharge study of cell C. While taking amperage readings cell was discharged through hooking up to the ammeters as well as an LED. When the cell was hooked up to the VOM (again) it wasn't too far under 1.5 volts and steadily rising so making a note of the time, the VOM actually hit the 1.50volts mark at exactly 7:40pm on my clock (which is battery operated LOL!!).
Here are the readings at one minute intervals:

7:40pm - 1.50v
7:41pm - 1.72v
7:42pm - 1.83v
7:43pm - 1.88v
7:44pm - 1.91v
7:45pm - 1.93v
(ten minutes later)
7:50pm - 1.98v
(ten minutes later than that...)
8:00pm - 2.00v
Currently at 1.99v
Not coming back up to the 2.05v it stayed at for a long time. I saw 2.03 for a while too. Now it looks like the upper voltage is about two volts. Nothing to sneeze at but we can do better right? That poor cell hasn't had much of a break since I took it off the batteries LOL! Maybe it just needs a break (like me...)!

I also started another deliberate test of same; I placed one cell (different batch) in series with one 6v battery and one in parallel with the other 6v battery... Two controls as well out of a batch of 4 cells that were made a few days ago (different recipe)... I forgot to measure the 6v batteries... Sigh... Alright, enough for tonight. Those cells stay connected overnight.

Happy experimenting,
PC

EDIT: Forgot to add that the third cell didn't get connected until at least 12 hours later than the first two so if H2O is an issue, the better performing cell had LESS liquid water in it than the first cell during charging. These things dry pretty fast and are 'rock hard' in about 48 hours. They are about as hard as they are going to get...

[Peanutbutter29]

Well I was able to get some tests started..

Had a question for PhiChaser if its' okay.  The 2.5v your getting charged to (Gratz there btw);  which one of the formula's you showed the other day is "training" the best for you?  Also, I might have missed, but your method of construction for these cells was hot liquid salts and the Durhams (sp) right?

So, a bit out of order, but; info, thoughts and questions

-I have 2 "glue cells" (glue-all, epsom and substitute) drying.  Had to use Aluminum and copper sheet for electrodes.  At any rate they are both showing .50v (as expected).

-Trying also one of the only "semi-quick" methods.  I attempted to make a cell similar to Lasersabers latest (with the copper caps).  He did mention heating, epsom, alum, substitute and borax;  however I didn't state ratios or if he melted Borax.  So there were a few guesses there.  I did note in the process of things (as expected from using Borax before in leach precipitants when smelted);  if borax is melted, the resulting substance is no longer white.   My assumption then between Lasersaber's crystal being white (edges) and the reference to a hot plate;  borax was not melted.  For ratios I decided to go with a 25% even split across all.
- My intentions are / were to also liquify the borax, but I'll have to get some gear together first. I used a gas burner, but that's not quite enough for the borax.
-So I started with one (1.5" copper caps) and a pre-mixed and ground mixture.  Heating the cups directly I slowly added material, trying to not boil over.  Well it did and I say Props to Lasersaber for melting one full, lol.  At any rate, I let that one cook by itself (no other electrodes, just cap)
-The second attempt was to get as full as possible without boil over.  This time I placed a magnesium rod centered while cooking.  I was able to get appx. 1/2 the cap filled before bubbling stopped.  I then let cool.  Also I finally took the first off the heat, knowing the borax wouldn't go.

-Second unit, cooled with Cu and Mg electrodes; Anhydrous and cooled in freezer to prevent absorption of moisture.  Eg- essentially no water.  Voltmeter connected..... 0V...0mv...0uv.  So, I wondered for a while but remembered most people added at least a drop or two (like the pressed cell).  About 1ml of water and flipped for excess. Another test....1.62v Bing.  Closed loop current through multimeter 50ma.  BUT I used water, hmmph.  I let set for a couple hours and retested 1.56v but seemed fairly dry (by A/C).

-So I started on a Joule ringer, but I've not much parts (been a while).  Close as I could get isn't cutting it, so I'll have to order parts.   Heh, takes 2 AA to run LED (rechargeable 2.5v with 2) and shows a high draw for these.  Bleh, the toroidal just ain't cutting it, but I've never tried these yet.  The only way to then light this with my crystal cell was another AA in series (nothing else dry), but it did run, lol.  I have torn this down for curiosities.

-I noticed tearing the first down, it's fairy porous (great place for water to hide) and filled half way with water to see if anything dissolved.  Most all that was not "in the other color" did melt.  I suppose that's expected, still soluble as an anhydrous.

-A friend came by and wanted to see what these were, course I tore apart the only one with an electrode and the other cooked a lot longer.  But hey, its porous;  so I shoved a Mg square length in the middle of that cap.  Tested with meter......0v...0mv...0uv.  Knowing the missing part I added some water, but this time until I could see it;  then dumped any excess.  Re-tested with meter 1.60v (same....), flipped to 200ma and tested closed loop current through meter...max.  Went to 10a scale.....0.9A!!  Again wet, but more so...still a rod just shoved in?

So, now I'm curious of a few things (besides better tests, heh)...why are Volts seeming to be so close on these cells...1.6v CuMg and .5-6CuAl.  Galvanic properties are heavily dependent on plate spacing and area, but all these variations are coming close in Volts?  Brain working...

So, to show him that this is dissolving I smashed up all the crystal structure (except for the "other colored borax");  to end up with a liquid, mucky, crunchy mix.  Test the volts out of curiosity.....1.6v Hrmmm.  Moved the electrode in and out some (plate area) and no change in Volts....hmmm
Next I through in an aluminum rod...looking for .6v and whadya' know...0.6v, lol.   

Obviously there is an electrolysis going on, and something is being oxidized; i thought.  So, I used a couple different items to see where the oxidation point was. Mg - 1.6v, Al - .6v, Pb -.3v, and Ag-(-24uv).  Currents were Mg - .9A, Al - 400ma, Pb - 300ma, Ag -2uA (all in this liquid mush cup of course)
Testing, in this same solution, Mg to Al (for electronegativity rationalization) voltage .4v

The comparison of Cu to Ag and Mg to Al shows, in this case is, not related to electronegativity;  but rather oxidative potential and Metal Activity Series.  Hydrogen being the "cut" point as one would expect here. 

So, I'm leaning towards this being an electrolytic battery possibly.....not decided of course; but not all bad.
I know, so far, there is always moisture involved in these / allowed hydrolysis;  however varying moisture levels could better explain the variation in current output without Voltage change.
  This can be easily tested by heating products to anhydrous (whatever mix) and then making a "glue type" cell, but with GELCOAT  Epoxy resin.  It has the nice attribute of preventing hydrolysis.  If this has been done please let me know.  I plan on testing this, however it will not work if it's electrolysis.

Now, if it were to be an electrolytic type cell (until moisture is eliminated as a variable, if possible) there are other probabilities to be expected that are good.
-Plate area does not matter, but rather should be based on the current output expected and the load on the electrolyte (100ua, 100ma etc)
-Plate spacing does not matter (to a point) and can be placed as close as will allow from your construction
-With a given "mix" you should always yield +/- a very close voltage relative to the metals placement in the Activity series and the oxidative potential of your mix.
-At a given moisture content (this includes water of crystallization and hydrolysis) the initial output current should be +/- a narrow range.
-material will attempt to deposit on magnesium rather than eat it.  Several sulfates formed ( copper 1). Probably Magnesium chloride (precipitated with lead) etc etc.  Several double replacements.

I suppose if this proves to be true, multiple small sized, parallel connected cells may be best (e.g. bigger isn't better), the only bad thing means there will always be an end and a need for fresh electrolyte.  At least there should be minimal metal loss overall.

I dunno just thoughts from my first runs.  Of course just ideas also, but I hope to do / see a gelcoat cell test to eliminate Hydrolysis at least.  Who knows I may just sound crazy.   Also VERY sorry for being wordy and long

I'm not sure what all has been tested and expressed, but maybe there's something in the tests' another can use to help with their work.
Thanks


EDIT:  I should add with the whole electrolytic battery concept.  There would be 2 main thought trains, more moisture (crystal, water, hydrolysis) for more output per cell;  or Controlled moisture (probably crystal or anhydrous) with "limited" hydrolysis for low current but longer life.

[PhiChaser]

Well I was able to get some tests started..

Had a question for PhiChaser if its' okay.  The 2.5v your getting charged to (Gratz there btw);  which one of the formula's you showed the other day is "training" the best for you?  Also, I might have missed, but your method of construction for these cells was hot liquid salts and the Durhams (sp) right?

Not hot salts. Nope! The water was at room temperature. No baking involved heh heh...
Regarding the Borax, a little goes a L - O - N - G ways!! Put a teaspoon into a quarter cup of water and let me know if it EVER evaporates... I may try it as a 'dash' sometime down the road just to slow my cells setting up process (to aid in 'training' the cells perhaps?). Anyhow... Hope this helps. Looks like I posted while you were typing LOL!!
PC

[jbignes5]

 Excellent reports guys. As you go along you have to start looking at what we know. If you are using aluminum you must use a small amount of borax. What I do is get the aluminum wet with a spray bottle then powder the aluminum with borax. Or another method is to get the aluminum very hot and spray on borax water. This will coat the aluminum in a fluffy white foam like coating. After some time in the salt bath it will seem to erode away. Don't worry it is still there and working happily to repair any breaches in the oxide layer of the aluminum.


My only experiments with aluminum were of an old electrolytic cap can and aluminum wire that was very very thick. But you have to start looking at how pure your metal is. The more impurities the faster they will degrade if they get attacked. It's the same with magnesium.


When I treated the aluminum with water spray and powdered with borax the aluminum that was in my first cell did not degrade on bit. After two months of crystal growth it still had a lot of water in the cell (it was very liquid) and the aluminum wire was still shinny and very pristine.. So the borax treatment worked very very well for the aluminum but only if it was applied like I mentioned here. The cell hovered around 1.2 volt the whole time which would vary from day to day. Mostly higher. I didn't get a current reading because my meter was old and the current fuse was blown.


here is a picture of my cell just after it was made. Also I don't recommend using glass as a container. The center electrode was graphite.

[PhiChaser]

More results: The super cell (C) that was giving me over 2 volts yesterday (the 2.5 volt monster LOL!) was giving me 1.56v this morning. Disappointing but not unexpected. The B cell was giving me MORE voltage than yesterday (about .65v) but again, the voltage didn't drop so quickly so we will keep an eye on that too. The A cell was below a volt (0.97-0.8v and falling slowly).
I agree with the reasoning that we're going to end up searching for the compromise where the voltage will be low but will be steady when connected to a load.

Okay, now for my overnight test for series vs. parallel charging:
NO QUESTION!! I hooked up two cells yesterday, one in series with one 6v, one in parallel with another 6v.
Both cells started with a baseline about 0.83v (dropping to less than 0.5v in a minute or two when hooked to the VOM last night).

Series - 0.56v really solid reading doesn't go down when connected. Not very high BUT the current started at 140uA and started RISING slowly when I hooked it up. I will have to test these again and get more measurements BTW... Solid low voltage at any rate.
Parallel - 2.49v and dropping to around 2.39v in the same couple minutes. Pegged the 0-500uA meter...
Current measured 1.2mA but eventually dropped to 600-700uA. Again, will have to test more for longer term...

So, it looks like parallel is the way to go but the series cells seem to be more 'stable' even if all the readings are pretty low (all things considered LOL!)

Anyhow, happy experimenting everyone!
I will find another cell to try charging before I go to work. Maybe one with both 6v in parallel again...

PC