Testing the TK Tar Baby

[hoptoad]

snip....

So, 1 Ampere = 1*Coulomb/s and 1 Volt = J/Coulomb this gives W = Coulomb/s * J/Coulomb gives W = J*s

Wouldn't  you know it. :-) I was wrong! :-)

I retract all my statements about the Joule and humbly bend down into the dust.

GL.

LOL. I pointed out in the previous NERD thread, it is easy to become confused about things such as power and energy when using certain formula.

I made the following post and then another member called GravityBlock posted some further information regarding better formulas to use to avoid confusion.

"
Quote from: hoptoad on January 15, 2012, 03:45:28 AM

Definitions are funny things. While watts are generally considered to be a measure of instantaneous power, and watt hours or watt seconds are a measure of power over time (energy),

it must be recognised that time is already factored into the definition of a watt. How so? Power is Voltage times Current. - Yeh Since charge is measured in coulombs and time is measured in seconds, 1 Ampère is the same as 1 Coulomb per second. That is, Current (Amps) is Coulombs per second, therefore Power is Voltage x (Coulombs per second -  for 1 second). So 1 watt can be the equivalent of 1 Volt x 1 Coulomb per pecond, for 1 second. Hmmm, no wonder confusion over power or energy measurement occurs. Cheers from Hoptoad

By using the true electrical units, this hidden factor, which has been the author of confusion, is now clearly exposed.

q = kg.
A = m/s^2
Z = seconds

Energy, work, quantity of heat = Joule or qA^2 Z^2 while,
Power, radiant flux = Watt or qA^2 Z

Electromotive force, potential difference = Volt or qA
Electric Current = Amp or AZ

Electric Resistance = Ohm or q/Z
Electric Charge, quantity of E = Coulomb or AZ^2

Gravock "

Cheers

[Groundloop]

GL, hehe, no reason for that. Very useful discussion for me as well, thanks!

mrsean2k,

I'm looking at all the formulas now.

But what scares me is that they use Watt and Ampere in the formula to define a Volt:
"A single volt is defined as the difference in electric potential across a wire when an electric current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."

Isn't that some sort of circular logic?

(Sorry TK for the off topic discussion.)

GL.

[Groundloop]

LOL. I pointed out in the previous NERD thread, it is easy to become confused about things such as power and energy when using certain formula.

I made the following post and then another member called GravityBlock posted some further information regarding better formulas to use to avoid confusion.

"
Quote from: hoptoad on January 15, 2012, 03:45:28 AM

Definitions are funny things. While watts are generally considered to be a measure of instantaneous power, and watt hours or watt seconds are a measure of power over time (energy),

it must be recognised that time is already factored into the definition of a watt. How so? Power is Voltage times Current. - Yeh Since charge is measured in coulombs and time is measured in seconds, 1 Ampère is the same as 1 Coulomb per second. That is, Current (Amps) is Coulombs per second, therefore Power is Voltage x (Coulombs per second -  for 1 second). So 1 watt can be the equivalent of 1 Volt x 1 Coulomb per pecond, for 1 second. Hmmm, no wonder confusion over power or energy measurement occurs. Cheers from Hoptoad

By using the true electrical units, this hidden factor, which has been the author of confusion, is now clearly exposed.

q = kg.
A = m/s^2
Z = seconds

Energy, work, quantity of heat = Joule or qA^2 Z^2 while,
Power, radiant flux = Watt or qA^2 Z

Electromotive force, potential difference = Volt or qA
Electric Current = Amp or AZ

Electric Resistance = Ohm or q/Z
Electric Charge, quantity of E = Coulomb or AZ^2

Gravock "

Cheers

Hoptoad,

Thanks.

I have come to the same conclusion by looking at all the formulas. :-)

GL.

[Rosemary Ainslie]

My dear TK

WHY, as you ask here, would I bother anyone at all, let alone an expert....

Take that paragraph to ANY PHYSICIST OR EE ANYWHERE ON EARTH -- or for that matter to 99 percent of the posters ON THIS FORUM --  and ask them to tell you what is right, and what is wrong with it. Go ahead, Ainslie... as you have said to me: I DARE YOU.

with your question?  You are wrong.  PROFOUNDLY so.  This NEXT entire paragraph - from beginning to end - is equally WRONG and deeply disturbing that you try and promote this nonsense.  And it REALLY doesn't matter if you are in the majority with every single member of this entire forum.  You would ALL STILL be wrong. 

...And you are still confounding your Joules and your Watts, and my calculation of the instantaneous power is correct and any person you ask will tell you so. YOUR OWN OSCILLOSCOPE WILL EVEN TELL YOU SO. Go ahead, produce someone who agrees with you and not with me, PW, and the others who have analyzed that data. GO AHEAD. SHOW SOME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. You cannot.

And WHEN has science ever been established by majority opinion?  That is RIDICULOUS.

A Joule is a quantity of ENERGY. There is NO TIME INVOLVED, just as there is no time involved in a "mile" or a "quart" or a "rock" or a "mosfet" or a "bag of peanuts".  POWER IS A RATE, not a quantity. There is TIME involved in POWER. That same JOULE of energy could be dissipated very quickly or dragged out over a long time. You can eat a bag of peanuts all at once (one bag per minute for one minute), or you can eat one nut per day for many weeks (one one-hundredth of a bag per day for one hundred days). The WATT is the RATE at which JOULES are dissipated. A WATT is one Joule PER SECOND. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. If you dissipate ONE JOULE very quickly you have a HIGH POWER LEVEL. if you dissipate that SAME ONE JOULE very slowly, you have a LOW POWER LEVEL. One Joule can be turned into KILOWATTS of power for a brief instant or it can be turned into microWatts of power for a much longer interval. One WATT, though... is ALWAYS one Joule PER SECOND. If I go through a tenth of a Joule of energy per a tenth of a second, the power is ONE WATT during that tenth of a second (0.1/0.1 = 1). If I dissipate 1000 Joules of energy per 1000 seconds, the power is ONE WATT for that entire time of 1000 seconds. Observe: (1 watt) x (1000 seconds) == 1000 Wattseconds.... aka 1000 JOULES. Note the technical use of the common words PER, indicating a division operation, and FOR, indicating a multplication operation. One WATT FOR 1000 SECONDS == 1 x 1000 == 1000 Joules. One thousand Joules PER 1000 seconds == 1000/1000 = 1 Joule PER second == one WATT. ENERGY, Joules, is CONSERVED. ENERGY IN = ENERGY OUT. POWER, Watts, is not necessarily conserved. A peak level of 1 kW input power can result in peak output power levels of hundreds of kiloWatts or more if the energy discharges are made FOR very short durations.

As is this entire paragraph.  From beginning to end. It is self-evidently and ENTIRELY ridiculous.

Rosie Pose

[mrsean2k]

mrsean2k,

I'm looking at all the formulas now.

But what scares me is that they use Watt and Ampere in the formula to define a Volt:
"A single volt is defined as the difference in electric potential across a wire when an electric current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."

Isn't that some sort of circular logic?

(Sorry TK for the off topic discussion.)

GL.

GL, it is in that case, but there's more than one way to arrive at these definitions.


When you look at Wikipedia, it's repeating many of the handy relationships between these concepts that are useful in predicting real-life behaviour, or solving problems where you know one or more measurements, and want to calculate another.


(And similarly, TK, I'll shut up now)