Thane heins Rodin pulse motor

[Magluvin]

These are the kinds of issues that could be looked at.  There is no "Thane Heins" effect.  There is on the other hand the challenge to really understand what is happening, and then understanding that what is happening is all 100% normal - the motor is simply doing what it is supposed to be doing.

Well, I wouldnt go as far as to say that there is no effect. We have seen this in Romeros motor also.  But I have yet to see it in a text book. ;]

I have only achieved the speedup effect once. The next day it would not do it. Hasnt since. But what I ended up with, while trying to get speed up back, was a resonant lock between the coil and the rotor. Lock meaning, once the rotor magnet pulses on the coil reached the resonance of the coil/cap LC, the rotor rpms become regulated to that freq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNCF7uQzwzM     
Still working on this one. Yes, still. ;]

So for me, there is no denying that there is a speedup effect and a resonant lock effect.

When it comes to the speed up effect, some things need to be checked first in order to proceed with confidence.

First, remove the generator coil(with core) from the motor. Now do an rpm max check, and input power check.

Then repeat those measurements with the coil in place but with no load, and then again, with the speedup load.

Now, the measurements of the input, without the gen coil in place, and the measurement of the input with the gen coil loaded in place, need to be compared.

The speedup that we see is the loaded coil helping to overcome the drag on the rotor by the core of the open(not loaded) gen coil. So as soon as you introduce the gen coil/core and mount it to the motor base, the drive motor gets loaded down. The coil does not have a load yet, and the motor slows down, and pulls more current from the source.

So, the key to this is to get the speedup result, very close to, or if possible, more eff results than the measurements of the motor having no gen coil at all.

If an 'equal' or better result can be obtained with the coil loaded, then you can add gen coils all the way around, as many as it takes to get an output that is equal or more than the input.

The effects are there. Dont quit after a few no go results. Everything needs tuning. Everything.

MaGs

[MileHigh]

Mags:

All of your suggestions are good.  What I would add would be to see how the motor runs for different loads, zero ohms, 0.2 ohms, 2, ohms, 5 ohms, 20 ohms, 100 ohms, etc.  See if there is a trend line there.

If I recall, there is a speed up when you short the gen coils, I can't remember if it happens for other loads.  Suppose your coil resistance is 4 ohms.  So at a 4-ohm load you have an impedance match with the resistance of the coil.  That will give you your maximum power transfer into the load but it will only be 50% efficient because the same power will be dissipated inside the coil itself.  If your motor has very good coupling to your generator coils, and you have an impedance match, you will probably hear thunking sounds and the RPM will be low.

So you can plot power consumption and RPMs vs. varying load resistors.  At the same time you could have a true-RMS mutimeter measuring the power being transferred into the load resistor.

You can also vary the load and assuming the top RPM changes, you could then tweak the supply voltage to return to a 'reference' RPM.  So you could plot input power required to maintain a stable RPM for differing loads.  That is probably the most critical measurement for zeroing in on the most efficient configuration for your motor assuming that your define efficiency as (load power)/(input power).

I as suspecting that it's mostly for shorted generator coils that the RPM increases.  That one has been discussed before.  I believe that you nearly eliminate the cogging when you do that.  That's another easy test, you just do a spin-down test with the generator coil shorted vs. open-circuit; one time possibly with minimal cogging, the other with normal cogging.

Adding more generator coils because you perceive an advantage with a certain configuration is not going to work.  Simple reason - you have a finite amount of "rotor pushing power" from the drive coil.  Adding more generator coils simply spreads out that available rotor pushing power.

This is just basic common sense and I know that the only way to resolve this would be a test.  There is a simple test that you can conjure up.   Run the motor with one generator coil driving a load (assuming that we are interested in a useful output.)  Measure the power going into the load resistor with your true-RMS multimeter.  Repeat the same test but with two generator coils and then with three generator coils, all the time taking note of the power going into the load resistors.  After enough experimenting and changing of load resistor values for different configurations, etc, you should come to the conclusion that you have hit a wall and there is no advantage to adding extra coils.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Mags:

I watched your clip.  If you could do a similar test and scope the generator coil output it would be interesting.  When you hook up a capacitor to the generator coil, the LC tank circuit is getting pinged by the passing rotor magnets.  Certain RPMs may result in the pinging being properly timed to keep the LC resonator ringing.  The bigger the capacitor the higher the possible energy in the ring-down.

So it looks to me that every time a rotor magnet passes the gen coil, there is a 'gulp' of energy that gets pumped into the capacitor.  That causes a Lenz drag hit too of course.

So it may not necessarily be a pure resonant effect, but more of a balancing act.  The more robust the ringing in the coil, the heavier the drag on the rotor and the lower the RPM.  At the same time, like I said above, there may be some effects related to the synchronous pinging of the LC resonator by the passing rotor magnets.  It's possible that the RPM can bump up to a higher speed when the pinging is asychronous and it tends to 'muffle' the ringing.

Thinking about this come more, it's possible that the rotor will spin at multiple stable speeds.  There could be some kind of "beating" effect between the synchronous/asychronous pinging and the LC resonant frequency and available rotor power and stuff like that.  The term for this is "metastability" - the rotor can lock into different stable RPMs.

I suspect that the resonant frequencies are actually quite high, but the decay in the ringing is not that short.

Just guessing.

MileHigh

[Magluvin]

Mags:

I watched your clip.  If you could do a similar test and scope the generator coil output it would be interesting.  When you hook up a capacitor to the generator coil, the LC tank circuit is getting pinged by the passing rotor magnets.  Certain RPMs may result in the pinging being properly timed to keep the LC resonator ringing.  The bigger the capacitor the higher the possible energy in the ring-down.

So it looks to me that every time a rotor magnet passes the gen coil, there is a 'gulp' of energy that gets pumped into the capacitor.  That causes a Lenz drag hit too of course.

So it may not necessarily be a pure resonant effect, but more of a balancing act.  The more robust the ringing in the coil, the heavier the drag on the rotor and the lower the RPM.  At the same time, like I said above, there may be some effects related to the synchronous pinging of the LC resonator by the passing rotor magnets.  It's possible that the RPM can bump up to a higher speed when the pinging is asychronous and it tends to 'muffle' the ringing.

Thinking about this come more, it's possible that the rotor will spin at multiple stable speeds.  There could be some kind of "beating" effect between the synchronous/asychronous pinging and the LC resonant frequency and available rotor power and stuff like that.  The term for this is "metastability" - the rotor can lock into different stable RPMs.

I suspect that the resonant frequencies are actually quite high, but the decay in the ringing is not that short.

Just guessing.

MileHigh

M

Yeah, its like a balancing act. Like the phase of the pulses from the rotor and the freq that the LC wants to ride at, level out. If we speed the rotor up, the LC wants to stay at resonant freq, and the phase difference causes more Lenz or drag on the rotor, not letting it get away yet.

It does look like more power is being developed with the larger 1uf cap compared to the .5uf .

Using a larger cap, will of course allow more current flow, during a 1/4 cycle time period.
But now the voltage peaks are lower. So again, its a balancing act.

Just like when I show that shorting across the cap, the lockup releases, it is the same for applying a load.

So the difference in whether we use a small or large cap will depend on many factors. In my case, I get more voltage and more current(in the lc itself) at lower freq with a large cap, but my input is up at low rpm. But with the small cap, higher freq, high voltage, lower amperage, the higher rpms lower our input.

Maybe Romeros coils were not ringing at freq like mine. My gen coil has way more in copper and turns, and no visible caps on his coils(bifi?)  So maybe his are at 1/4 wave, below actual LC of his coils.

Its hard to discern without having a speedup device in front of me to try things and compare.

Mags

[Jimboot]

Isn't this effect what we all got excited about with the Orbo? Making the cores disappear? MuMetal, high permeability etc?
Anyway to answer some questions. Firstly there is no cap in my drive circuit. I am using one from Woopy http://www.overunity.com/8411/steorn-demo-live-stream-in-dublin-december-15th-10-am/dlattach/attach/76902/image/ Although my mosfet is an IRF1405 and the resistor values are different.
The measurements I've done so far show that the motor runs at about the same RPM & current draw with the gen coil hooked up or not present at all. I get about 230V off the gen coil (amps not measured) . When I hook the output of the gen coil to the drive battery voltage initially jumps then will remain steady and slight increases (about .01v hour) upwards. So not significant except it has a motor running at 28K rpm attached.


The effect will not take place until I get the rotor over about 10k rpm. Need to measure this. Another weird thing I have observed. My drive coil is a Rodin coil but I am only using a single winding of it to drive. Once I have the gen coil connected and generating voltage I can then hook up the second winding to the same FWBR as the gen coil and see and further increase in speed and subsequent current draw drop. If I tried to do this without the gen coil the motor would slow down as expected with the second winding (bemf, cemf) kicking in. Remember the rodin is an air coil so there is no core to mask so why does this effect happen? Beats me.


@Milehigh what you say to me makes sense but doesn't fit with what I  am seeing. I try to keep things simple as I have only been playing with electronics for a few years. Longer pulse duration = higher current draw makes sense


Tuning is a little finicky as Mags observed but I've had no issues replicating the effect with multiple configs. I still need to get the output higher. At the moment it will light two 12v lamps in series to about half brightness. My core for the gen coil is an old cold chisel handle - so I guess that is hardened steel. Would ferrite produce higher current?


My gen goil is 80ohm .05mm wire. Weighs about 2kg.


I'll do a vid in a few hours explaining the above