most simple design of a permanent magnet motor. what are the odds?

[ionizer]

There are no field line sources.
Field lines belong to space just like radiowaves and lightwaves.
The difference is in their frequency.
Radiowaves and lightwaves oscillate.
That is what makes it possible to carry or transfer energy.
The field around a magnet does not oscillate and that is why it does not contain energy.
You might as well start to build a wheel with lightbulbs hoping that when you turn it, it will start to radiate light.

It goes beyond your imagination and that is what makes it so hard.
More needs to be done to earn understanding.

[Gwandau]

@ ionizer,

we still know too little about the source-dynamics behind magnetism to nail any fundamental postulates about what's possible or not.
So if I were you I would hesitate to unload any such dogmatic crap in the face of people trying to think outside the box.
Remember that all groundbreaking innovations always opposes the contemporary viewpoint of what is possible.
A true scientific mind never say never.

@kelloggs,
First of all, do not be affected by conservative minds trying to impose unfounded negativism.  As I pointed out to the conservative ionizer, we know too little about the electromagnetic field to be able to postulate any dogmatic "does not work". The idea of the magnetic field as a conservative field is just as unfounded as the same conclusion of the gravitational field. We really dont know if these are even primary force fields. Maybe they are mere secondary responses to the condition of a single all encompassing field.

We know a lot today how to use the electromagnetic field, but we still don't know what makes a piece of iron attracted to a magnet.

If you want to succeed to pass the so called sticky point apparent in your construct, you have to take several things into consideration. The solution is unfortunately not as easy as merely shielding the magnetic field. You have to deal with certain parameters inherent in the polar interdependence of magnets.

I strongly advice you to keep things as simple as possible from the very start, and a recommended entry in your quest would be to study the field geometry on one single magnet with the properties planned for. Since the magnetic field is three dimensional, you have to study the field by using a three dimensional field detector. This is a quite simple instrument which acts as a three dimensional compass. (When subjected to earths magnetic field, it shows you the correct direction to the poles of the earth, pointing downward at an angle that is depending upon your latitudes.)
Here is one place to buy it:   http://www.indigo.com/magnets/magnaprobe-magnetic-field-direction.html

Use this detector to map the optimal three dimensional shape of your field-reroute configuration needed for you project.
Remember to always minimize the parameters involved in your experiments, and to always document your findings, however small they may look at the time. Such a project as yours is much bigger than you may realize, and calls for just the same accuracy and metric tolrances as in any other engine.Additional parameters such as magnet type, shape and quality and how many magnets are used in the rotor as well as inertia and rpm are vital ingredients,but it all boils down to the configuratioin of the magnetic field vector differential.

I also advice you to make all parts in a non metallic material, since all known metals are interacting with magnetic fields one way or the other.My favorourite choice of material would be the tranparent unbreakable Polycarbonate, which is easy to machine. This way it will be quite easy for you to map the magnetic field geometry and also if you succeed, it will terminate any attempts to discredit the validity of your invention when presenting it to the world.


Theoretically it is fully possible to create a rerouted field shortcut behind a multilayer shield system which makes the unwanted pole hidden from outer field detection, or if preferred, just makes it express a field geometry different from the other pole. There is nothing wrong scientifically with such a theory. But to realize this in practicality is quite another story, calling for an extensive understanding of the field geometry involved in the actual case.


I am myself dedicated to a project quite closely related to your problem, and it all points towards the combination of an insulated multilayer system of conductive and diamagnetic materials, shaped in order to reroute the field exposure of the unwanted pole influence into a loop within a container. This is probably the only way to do it, since any attempts to directly suppress or shield a magnetic field polarity only results in a repositioning of the pole expression.

Don't forget that the north and south field of a magnet always are connected and that the field strength of the poles are interdependent and unseparable.

Have you tried to incorporate materials with diamagnetic properties?

A diamagnetic material when subjected to a magnetic field react by creating an opposing field. This counteracting field is not very strong compared to the field of the magnet acting upon it, but used in combination with the rerouting of magnetic field vectors through conductive multilayers or MU-metal may be the tipping point needed for the creation of a feasible field vector differential.

The most diamagnetic of all known materials is the man made so called pyrolitic graphite. It creates enough counterfield strength to float above a neodynium magnet. But pyrolitic graphite alone will not do the trick even if you use thick layers of this expensive material, since you cannot supress the magnetic field, only work with it.

So if there is a way to create a vector oriented dis-equilibrium in the field strength geometry between the two poles of a magnet, it is bound to be through the geometric redesign of the magnetic field vectors in such a way that the unwanted part of the magnetic field is rerouted through a shortcut into a contained loop.

As I said, this is fully possible seen from the theoretical scientific point of view, and containers that completely keeps out magnetic fields, including the magnetic field of earth, are well known in the scientific community, and employed in research where no electromagnetic interference is allowed. What makes things complicated is when you are attempting to alter the detectable visibility of the nagnetic field polarity.

So don't give up too easy. Just keep in mind that altering the geometry of polarity-visibility is a field of knowledge where you are bound to gain a thorough understanding of the field geometry specific for the case in question. Start by bying one of those cheap three dimensional compasses used for educational purposes, they will suffice well in giving you an initial view of the field orientation.

I also recommend you to gain further insight in the electromagnetic field dimension.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/MagneticMatls.htm

Then the rest is just a lot of trial and error.


Gwandau

[ionizer]

@ ionizer,

we still know too little about the source-dynamics behind magnetism to nail any fundamental postulates about what's possible or not.
So if I were you I would hesitate to unload any such dogmatic crap in the face of people trying to think outside the box.
Remember that all groundbreaking innovations always opposes the contemporary viewpoint of what is possible.
A true scientific mind never say never.

Actually repeatble tests support this dogmatic crap as you call it.
The problem is that everybody is still thinking inside the 'magic magnets' box if they were thinking outside they would see the bigger picture and finally start to understand how and why.

You should change the 'we' part to something like 'i' know too little about the source-dynamics behind magnetism.
There are people that know more and they usually gained this knowledge by doing multiple tests and comparing results myself included.
I am not sure in which year you got stuck but over here we move on foreward slowly doing tests and gaining more interesting results now and then.

Results that support this dogmatic crap which means there is actual evidence for those who want to know more and that is exactly what we need.
Test results do not lie no matter what you believe.
It seperates fact from fiction.

Trying to think outside of the box, and thinking outside of the box are not the same thing.
They don't even come close to one another.

You think about that.

[kelloggs]

thats a very strange argument you bring there. what does oscillation have to do with energy production? does water oscillate to produce energy in turbines? does wind oscillate when it blows through rotor blades? does fuel oscillate when you burn it?

if there is a field oscillating or not, there is a energy behind it otherwise it woudnt be there. the properties of lightwaves or radiowaves are not of my concern at this point. what we deal with is a force emitted from an unpowered object (permanent magnet). we call them field lines. they can be made visible through iron chippings. they interact with most metals through attraction but if you have another field line source they can interact with repulsion too. we discovered, that we can reroute field lines through soft metal with high permeability. we know field lines travel from the north to the south hemisphere of a magnet in a specific pattern. we know where the field lines have their highest density thus creating the highest possible force if challenged.

now if we approach a magnet with another magnet (north and south pole parallel arranged so that they repell each other) we experience a force that works against the force we use to bring the two magnets closer. Thats because the field lines of the two magnets start crossing and pushing against each other well because... they just dont like each other. now we try another angel to approach the two magnets but we experience the same force (not only we experience it, it IS the same force). now we try to get past the magnet as close as possible in a circular motion (like in stator/rotor setup). We try it from left, we try it from right but we always need the same amount of energy to get close to the static magnet. that means that the density of the field lines is absolutly equally distributed. now if we push the rotor magnet against his will beyond a certain tipping point which should be somewhere when the 2 magnets are parallel to each other he will suddenly sling in the direction we want to push him. now the field lines worked in our favor and we got some energy back which we used to get him to this tipping point. so what do we think about that? those stupid field lines dont want me to bring my rotor magnet to his tipping point. now we look back at what we have learned about magnetic fields and what we can do. hey, we can reroute field lines of permanent magnets. why dont we rerout field lines that complicate our approach to the tipping point? where there are no field lines that can cross each other there cant be any magnetic forces right? thats what we learned too! we also learned that field lines like to go from north hemisphere to south hermisphere. so why dont we help them out? just give them an easy way so they can get where they want to go until we have reached our tipping point.

[kelloggs]

We know a lot today how to use the electromagnetic field, but we still don't know what makes a piece of iron attracted to a magnet.

maybe the free electrons in the metal get attracted and because they cant escape they lift the metal xD. thats how induction works too somehow.

yeah. the problem with 3D field lines. thats though. the only thing which comes to my mind is lots of mineral oil and iron chippings.

one more thought about the field line rerouting: the shield has to be dimensioned in such a way, that it rerouts the precise amount of field lines available on one hemisphere of the magnet and beeing saturated after that so it wont suck away field lines from the other hemisphere of the magnet.

is there a formular on how much millimeter of soft metal is needed to suck and hold a certain amount of field lines?