Probality of God

[Gwandau]

listen gwandau... if you are going to say stupid shit like:then i am going to call you on it... because... it's stupid AND I EXPLAINED EXACTLY WHY.
'proof' is for mathematics and alcohol. you cannot prove anything in science to a certainty, although you can disprove a lot.
all scientific theories are proposed as rigorously tentative and thus, subject to revision.
just because something is a "mystery" to us, that does not indicate nor necessitate "intelligent design"...

I absolutely agree, Wilby, that was stupid of me to say.

I just wanted to highlight the fact, (yes,FACT) , that the mystery remains regarding the flagellar motor. But please do not misunderstand me here, I am merely indicating that there seems to be set parameters within physical universe that promotes life when conditions are optimal, which in turn makes anyone above IQ50 to question the idea that life evolves out of dead matter by pure time times chance. Not to mention the mystery of consciousness. Do you really believe consciousness has evolved out of nothing by pure chance?

As seen by some biochemists, it remains a mystery. As seen by other biochemists, it is not.

Yes, hoptoad, that is where it still stands today, forty years later. Some observations are just a bit too uncomfortable for scientists to delve into.

There seems to be an assumption by many that complexity requires design. Since life is so complex it must be a result of said design.

The very concept of "design" is giving rise to so many different preconceptions, which I personally think is the main reason for the reaction against it.

To many people, scientists not excluded, "design" means there must be an objectified personal entity being the maker of the design.

That's not neccesarily the only defintion of "design". It could just as well be an all encompassing program that always have permeated physical universe, inherent in the very fabric of matter space and time, making the miracle of life possible when conditions are in favour. This version of an intent is not started by anyone. It has always been here, and will always be here.

An eternal mechanism as natural as the rest of the physical laws that governs our universe, an eternal non originating and non ending intent within an infinite universe.

A few years ago a group of researchers announced the 'discovery' of nanobes. What they thought were lifeforms smaller than anything previously known. These nanobes had what appeared to be the equivalent of dna at the heart of their structures, but the 'apparent' dna was only a fraction of the size of dna found in microbes.
The premise used to describe these nanobes as living creatures was their complexity of structure, their ability to reproduce, and possession of an apparent metabolism.
However, other researchers have shown the same complexity arising from artificial structures made from non living component chemicals.
These structures appear as self organising and self replicating entities arising from the chemical soup that was used to create and harbour them.
Some of the most surprising and complex structures created by these chemical synthesis experiments are actually non organic,  containing no carbon.
It's possible that these artificial structures are in fact artificial life. It's also possible that they merely mimic the complexity of living reactions without actually being alive.
Cheers

The word artificial is just a human concept. Everything is natural, even if it does not fit into our carbon based system here on earth.

The same experiment has been done by copying the primordial soup of early earth and they got the exact same reaction. Protein shells were formed and as long as the electrical storms were simulted, these protein capsules started to divide just like living cells, even without the presence of a nucleus.

Personally I think that what you call "artificial life" is the exact same program intended to create life when conditions are optimal, just not the earth type.

Cheers,

Gwandau

[WilbyInebriated]

I absolutely agree, Wilby, that was stupid of me to say.

thank you. it takes a man to admit such things.

I just wanted to highlight the fact, (yes,FACT) , that the mystery remains regarding the flagellar motor. But please do not misunderstand me here, I am merely indicating that there seems to be set parameters within physical universe that promotes life when conditions are optimal

of course... if there weren't such parameters, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

which in turn makes anyone above IQ50 to question the idea that life evolves out of dead matter by pure time times chance.

of course life comes from dead matter. this is how nature sustains itself. life feeds on dead matter (plant, animal, mineral)

Not to mention the mystery of consciousness. Do you really believe consciousness has evolved out of nothing by pure chance?

consciousness hasn't evolved out of "nothing"...  your question is far too loaded, rephrase it and i may attempt to answer it.

That's not neccesarily the only defintion of "design". It could just as well be an all encompassing program that always have permeated physical universe, inherent in the very fabric of matter space and time, making the miracle of life possible when conditions are in favour. This version of an intent is not started by anyone. It has always been here, and will always be here.

An eternal mechanism as natural as the rest of the physical laws that governs our universe, an eternal non originating and non ending intent within an infinite universe.

i like that idea very much... except the phrase 'miracle of life'. a miracle is an event attributed to divine intervention.

[hoptoad]

snip...
The word artificial is just a human concept. Everything is natural, even if it does not fit into our carbon based system here on earth.
snip...

Indeed, I agree. I use the word artificial only in the context of something being an artifact - that is, there has been a degree of living intelligence involved in the creation of something.

Robert Heinlein presented the idea of everything being natural in one of his books. One character says to another - "what is the difference between a dam made by beavers, for beaver's purposes, and a dam made by man, for mans purposes"?.

While the scale and materials used by man may be significantly different to that of the beaver, the inherent concept, impact and purpose of the two different dams is the same.

Yet so many people will automatically describe the beaver's dam as natural, while describing man's dam as artificial. The only difference I see,  is the difference in scale.
Cheers

[Gwandau]

i like that idea very much... except the phrase 'miracle of life'. a miracle is an event attributed to divine intervention.

It's a great wonder just to be alive and able to enjoy the world and all our senses. To me "miracle of life" hints to the great mystery of the eternal and infinite quality of universe, which by the magnitude itself inevitably excludes any possibility for us to grasp even a fraction, since by default any fraction of an eternal infinity remains infinitely small.

Cheers,

Gwandau

[WilbyInebriated]

It's a great wonder just to be alive and able to enjoy the world and all our senses.

i agree.

To me "miracle of life" hints to the great mystery of the eternal and infinite quality of universe, which by the magnitude itself inevitably excludes any possibility for us to grasp even a fraction, since by default any fraction of an eternal infinity remains infinitely small.

Cheers,

Gwandau

well... to me 'miracle' means what the dictionary defines it as. that's why we have definitions... so everyone is on the same page when using words to communicate. that is the fundamental basis of language. when you start making up your own definitions you guarantee misunderstandings.