Big try at gravity wheel

[MarkE]

I understand your issue with air, and I have stated that the air can be replaced with a suitable material that is non-compressible and the system still works, hence your argument on air is actually one reason a single riser is not the same as a complete system.

If you want to wag the tail of the dog over the air, then in your calculations for a hydraulic lift also include the cost of the engine that runs the hydraulic pump as well as the pump itself and the losses in the hose, and the cost of the fuel for the engine and so on for however ridiculous it needs to become.  For the ZED,, drop a weight on top of a piston like TK did.

There is question as to whether or not a buoyant lift is identical to a hydraulic lift, and to make an argument that they are because we have not observed a difference is not valid.  Using that argument then the induction process can never happen,, how long were we playing with magnets and metal BEFORE the induction process was observed and used.

Here is a difference that "jumps" right out, with a buoyant lift the volume moved does not need to be the volume of the "float" when a displacement replacement is used.  With a hydraulic lift the medium can be brought up to pressure immediately.  With a float, work must be performed  first.  This is to say that the force used for a hydraulic lift has nothing to do with the transfer medium.

In a buoyant lift, what is the transfer medium and what is the work source.

Here we are dealing with a system that can use the multiple risers in what ever condition the operator chooses, that is they can all work together for a common lift or a few can be reduced in potential so that they are offering almost no assistance.  This is done by manipulating the buoyancy of each riser.

So with the setup I have defined already what if the outside 3 risers were setup to lift with the whole system at full value but when in descent they are reduced to 1\3 of there buoyant potential.  This change does not effect the volume of fluid exiting the system, but it does change the observed load and where that load is observed. The reduction in potential also needs to be remove from the system and can be used.

This buoyancy manipulation is where the system itself gets complex,  the setup and the ability for the water levels to be set as such that the direction of movement changes the column heights.  All of this setup stuff is  beyond my abilities of "doing", but not conceptualization.

TK posted several videos that show the processes that are required to be present for this to work, are present.

In short, the multiple riser system provides an advantage in reduction of volume of working fluid and allows for a re-distribution of forces within the system as such that a smaller weight can be used to apply its force from gravity onto a smaller surface area equaling the pressure needed for recovery.

Webby pick any configuration that you like.  Pick a starting condition that you like.  Calculate the stored potential energy in the system at your chosen starting point.  Cycle the system.  Count up all the external work that you apply to the system, and all the work you extract from the system.  Keep that up until the system returns to your chosen starting point.  Then tally up:

Total internal energy at the start:  Qs
Total external energy added:  Qa
Total external energy removed: Qr
Total internal energy at the end:  Qe

You will find that Qs + Qa = Qr + Qe

Find those notes of yours with the figures on them and we can go through them together.

You may have questions as to terminology such as: buoyant lift, or hydraulic lift.  Mostly this seems to be because you are using terms in unconventional ways.  The claim is for excess energy.  Stick with calculating energy.  If you need to calculate forces first to calculate energy, great, then do that.  Just make sure that you continue on to the point that you actually calculate energy.  See what values you get for: Qs, Qa, Qr and Qe.  If you keep stopping short of evaluating energy and evaluate only forces you will never get to a useful answer.

[Red_Sunset]

.................................................
In short, the multiple riser system provides an advantage in reduction of volume of working fluid and allows for a re-distribution of forces within the system as such that a smaller weight can be used to apply its force from gravity onto a smaller surface area equaling the pressure needed for recovery.

Webby,
It might be worthwhile to ask MarkE to explain back to you the paragraph above ( from you earlier today), to solve his energia dilemma.
My guess he hasn't read it or did not comprehend what is written.
Red_Sunset

[MarkE]

MarkE,

I would think that you would be capable of doing that for both systems, a single and a multiple, without needing to build anything "real".  Where is that data?

After you get the first set together then you can start to change the riser values, this one a little weak or that one,, you know the drill,, all of this can be done by you with no need to have a real build.

This would provide some evidence in support of your claim, but be careful,  I found many setups where lift was terrible and a few where the recovery was less than desired,, even with an O.K. lift.

The thing is, if you ordered a Ferrari and were delivered a Volkswagen I think you would complain, but in the end they are both just a means of transportation and therefore can do the exact same thing.

Webby, it is up to you to show that you have the unusual results you report and that they are not the result of error.  You need to provide your data.  Otherwise what we have is established understanding which unfortunately goes against your claims, Red's claims, Wayne's claims.

[MarkE]

Actually Red, I do not think that MarkE has run any numbers at all on this,, there are just so many other places for him to poke at if he did, not that they would get him anywhere, but that number 3 riser is interesting.

The statement by MarkE that the two systems are the same is the same one used by the only person to have a go at making a mathematical model of the system.. and they missed the mark really bad, remember Kenshi I think it was,, I mean it was done by the students but the teacher must of made sure of the base assumptions.

We can all take the words of S. Hawking,, the universe is making energy all the time, so sit back and enjoy the free ride,, but then I guess he is not very good in his field,, or maybe just a little soggy or some such

Webby ad hominem attacks are a last resort.  Please try and keep the discussion technical.

[TinselKoala]

Can we please keep our facts straight?

1. There were _several_ people who attempted mathematical/spreadsheet models of Travis's kluge. Most were 2-dimensional but there were a few 3-d models.  Webby says that the Japanese school class's simulation analysis "missed the mark"... because it showed NO OU!! However, I am afraid that I trust the work of a class full of Japanese engineering students,and their teacher, a lot more than I trust _unsupported claims_ from someone in Oklahoma who lives an hour from the U of Ok's School of Mechanical Engineering campus -- but hasn't had a bunch of grad students from there, swarming over his machine and publishing their PhD theses about it. Or even more _unsupported_ claims from people who haven't even seen what Travis has in person.

2. Travis and others have _claimed_ that the ZEDs would work with two incompressible fluids rather than air and water. NOBODY has ever demonstrated this. Many analyses of what is happening involve the recognition that gas volumes, and hence pressures, can change in the system. So let's try to stay away from the circular arguments, please. It may be that pressures and volume changes aren't important, but this has never been demonstrated, it's just a "Travis says"... so it's a worthless statement in that it has no probative value, so you cannot use it to "prove" that air may be replaced with an incompressible liquid.

Travis says that air can be replaced with incompressible fluids. OK, fine... DEMONSTRATE IT. Show us a perpetually-working system that has NO AIR pockets in it, but rather two different immiscible incompressible fluids, working along, producing excess energy and not stopping when it runs out of "precharge".  Go ahead..... should be easy, right? Since Travis tells us so.

Right.

(insert facepalm cartoon here)