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Started by schuler, May 13, 2013, 09:19:51 AM

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Zeitmaschine

Addon:

Why is abruptness important?

When we want to get energy from the environment (what ever that may be), we need to create an energy sink (Tesla) on an oscillating basis. Oscillating means, that the energy in the system is constantly converted back and forth between two forms of energy. In doing so, we should strictly avoid that the energy from the environment (e.g. gravitation) is permanently working against that ongoing conversion process. The energy of the environment is allowed only to get into the system when the process of conversation has finished and the energy sink has been created. As soon as that environmental energy is in our system (flowed towards our sink) we have to convert it into a different form of energy (thus the oscillation), because we have to renew the sink in order to get more energy flowing in from the environment.

That's why we need a) something oscillating and b) something switching abruptly.

Just my two cents. :D

Red_Sunset

Quote from: Zeitmaschine on May 25, 2015, 11:05:20 AM
Addon:
Why is abruptness important?
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That's why we need a) something oscillating and b) something switching abruptly.
Just my two cents. :D

Zeit,
I had some time to think about the problem. I think you are somewhat too optimistic in getting to your desired result by taking giant steps.  Wanting to see a specific result can cloud your good judgment when the devil is in the details. It it wasn't , Milkovic would have already a standalone energy generator running and cranking out clean power.
He obviously hasn't and there must be a reason why !!  So there is still hope

In the pendulum movement, gravity is dominant at 3 & 9 o'clock and centrifugal is dominant at 6 o'clock. My analogy was not to be understood in a 360dgrs rotation, rather in a limited quadrant only.  What happens in the pendulum quadrant around 6 o'clock with a moving pivot is the same as what happens in a rotary quadrant of an eccentric vibration setup.  Sure in the pendulum we have to consider acceleration and de-acceleration rather than constant velocity.   This analogy was only a quick way to demonstrate that deviating an eccentric weight of an initial path entails into some penalty. ( you could compare the penalty to Lenz for argument purpose).

Lets assume a rotating mass, rotating without path deviation, making nice circles 'vs ' a rotating mass that at some point momentary deviates from the nice circular path and returns to continue on the circular path.  Would the rotation be impacted by the deviation ?  Would the rotation time be the same for both ?.

This deviation forces can be represented in a vector drawing, showing the forces the blob experiences in it travel and so clarify the impact of the pivot change.  For the pendulum, the impact will be different relative to the gravity direction and  acceleration / de-acceleration / constant motion .  This analysis will also pinpoint the best position to allow abrupt movement for best impact.
I don't have all the time yet to put it all together.
Red

Referring to your addon, 
Abrupt....The ideal time window to drop the pivot is exactly at vertical when gravity lost all influence over acceleration.  Ideal time to supplement the gravity force with the centrifugal force (by untie-ing  the centripetal force) for maximum force impact on the pivot without influencing the motion of pendulum mass.

Zeitmaschine

Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 25, 2015, 12:15:58 PM
I don't have all the time yet to put it all together.

So essentially you saying, that you have no final idea how the forces here are interacting with each other, but you are quite sure that the outcome can't be any surplus energy!?

Interesting!!

Milkovic himself maybe does not know how this works and why. Therefore he couldn't yet make a self-runner (Bessler could).

Apropos Bessler: What if we connect two pendulums together, so when one is in weightless state (horizontal) the other is in full weight state (vertical)? Could the resulting imbalance be used to drive a wheel continuously?

Just an odd idea ... ::)

Red_Sunset

Quote from: webby1 on May 25, 2015, 05:15:31 PM
The moving pivot creates a negative phase shift in the direction of forces.
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When going down the moving pivot slows down the conversion value of gravity into rotation.
These are not so easy to see unless you know to look for them.
Hi webby,
Thanks for for sharing your observation, you are right that it is so easily to overlook an aspect that only becomes obvious once you know it.

Quote
When we want to get energy from the environment (what ever that may be), we need to create an energy sink (Tesla) on an oscillating basis. Oscillating means, that the energy in the system is constantly converted back and forth between two forms of energy. In doing so, we should strictly avoid that the energy from the environment (e.g. gravitation) is permanently working against that ongoing conversion process. The energy of the environment is allowed only to get into the system when the process of conversation has finished and the energy sink has been created. As soon as that environmental energy is in our system (flowed towards our sink) we have to convert it into a different form of energy (thus the oscillation), because we have to renew the sink in order to get more energy flowing in from the environment.
That's why we need a) something oscillating and b) something switching abruptly.
.................................
................................
So essentially you saying, that you have no final idea how the forces here are interacting with each other, but you are quite sure that the outcome can't be any surplus energy!?
Interesting!!
Milkovic himself maybe does not know how this works and why. Therefore he couldn't yet make a self-runner (Bessler could).
Zeit,
I am not disagreeing with you, on the contrary,  I am in full agreement.
You are right that "I have no final idea how ALL the forces here are interacting with each other" because there is the big question of "something",  that is unresolved !

This "something" is also stopping Milkovic,  I bet he knows exactly how this works and why, and all pointers let us believe that he just hasn't been able to overcome this "something".  He developed this configuration purposely so he would be quite familiar with it.
Can this "something" be overcome ? and allow the sequence of energy flows as you have logically laid out in your hypothesis be implemented is the BIG question.  Never say no, this is the main reason why we are discussion this on this forum, I guess.

A general hypothesis is good for guidance into a specific direction,  it is then up to a detailed investigative process (since the devil is in the details) that will after the usual refining procedures will bring it closer to possible solution.  The solution might not always be the solution we are looking for.

For me to say "I am sure that the outcome can't be any surplus energy!" is preempting the investigation.  I am not sure about anything until I can positively identify a factual process with a result that theoretically point to a high probability.  The practical test will then confirm if the derived theory is correct or not.

At this point, there are still too many blocking issues that need to be resolved before the fat lady sings.

Red_Sunset




Zeitmaschine

Quote from: webby1 on May 25, 2015, 05:15:31 PM
When going down the moving pivot slows down the conversion value of gravity into rotation.

Exactly! And that is why - as I mentioned earlier -  the pivot should only move when the conversion process of gravity into rotation has finished (in the vertical position).

Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 26, 2015, 12:53:11 AM
A general hypothesis is good for guidance into a specific direction,  it is then up to a detailed investigative process (since the devil is in the details) that will after the usual refining procedures will bring it closer to possible solution.  The solution might not always be the solution we are looking for.

More investigation: A spark is something that occurs abruptly. Now we connect high voltage AC (the secondary of a transformer) on one side to an antenna and on the other side to a piece of metal. What happens? Nothing, because the electric circuit is not closed, hence no current is flowing in the secondary coil. Then we put a spark gap between the coil and the piece of metal (see illustration). Suddenly sparking occurs, hence a current flows through the wire although the circuit is still open. Because of that always open circuit, the transformer's primary draws constantly the same idle current, regardless whether sparking occurs or not (shorted spark gap). So, where is the energy coming from, that creates that sparking?

The spark fires when the voltage (measured against the metal) is highest. That is on the sine wave's positive or negative peak. That peak correlates with the horizontal (weightless) position of a pendulum (at which the lever »fires«).

Thus, a lot more (odd coincidences) to investigate, I think. :P