Building a self looping "SMOT"

[tinman]

@MH
Yes i know all about mass and gravity relationship's,although gravity and  magnetic fields have yet to be fully understood.Anything that has mass,has gravity-which is alomost all matter.The problem with your explination is that there is no other mass at the end of the track attracting the ball,only a magnetic field that is present along the whole track. Looking at the track and magnet placement,i would think the mass attraction is preaty uniform along the length of the track.It is obvious that the pull force of gravity on the ball is greater than the attraction force of the magnets on the ball at the end of the track,or the ball wouldnt drop in the first place.
If you think about this,then there is questions to be answered. How is it that the magnetic attraction force can overcome the gravitational pull force on the ball,while the ball is traveling up the ramp-and then at the end of the ramp,the gravitational pull force is greater than the magnetic attraction force ,allowing the ball to drop?.
You cant have it both way's,but here it seems we can.
Either the ball should roll up the ramp,by way of the magnetic attraction force being stronger than the gravitational pull force-and get stuck at the end of the ramp,or the gravitational pull force being the stronger of the two ,and the ball shouldnt roll up the ramp at all.
So how is it that these two forces can be switched at the end of the ramp, without any energy input?.

The only possable explination is that the ball has to be pushed(or forced)into the start of the ramp. But i dont think this is the case,as most ramps will draw the ball into the starting point-unless it is set up the way i explained a few post back-where the magnets have like fields facing the track-ball,causeing the steel ball to be repelled.

Quote JouleSeeker : I haven't seen that "higher level" after exit YET. 

Are you saying that a "higher level" after exit  is impossible?

No,im saying it is possable.
PM's can add work done to a lot of systems.Take the PM electric motor for example.If we take out the PM's,and replace them with steel or iron blocks of the same size and shape-would the motors output (HP or Kw) be the same as it was with the PM's in there,for the same P/input?. Well we know the answer is no,so it must have been the PM's that added the extra energy output ,for the same P/input to that electric motor.

What i do know,is that strange things can happen within magnetic fields that are interupted by magneticly active materials.
While gravity and magnetism remain a bit of a mistery,i will never say !!IT CANT WORK!!
And my challenge still remains-show me any other device that can raise a mass,and then let it drop back down,without any energy input.
Like MH said-we take away the magnets,and nothing will happen. This can only mean the magnets are the source of the energy that is raising the steel ball,and then gravity+mass excelleration(the stored energy in the moving ball), is the source of energy that pulls the ball out of the magnetic field.

There are other video's that show the steel ball being pulled into the SMOT,and then released at the other end.
I guess the best proof would be to see the ball come to rest at a slightly higher level than it started from-outside the megnetic field of the ramp.
No one here can say with 100% certainty,that it cant be done based only on the fact that it hasnt been done yet.History has proven time and time again,that what was thought to be impossible in the past,is now a reality.

The laws of physics are only theories,and based around what we know today. But they will constantly change,as man becomes more educated.

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

Good that you understood my example.

So let's look at what happens when the ball rolls up the ramp because it's attracted to the cricket ball.  Relative to the Earth it gets raised up and increases in energy from the added height.  But what about the case for the cricket ball?  The cricket ball is like a small planet.  In this case the ball moving up the ramp is getting closer to the cricket ball.  So that means that the ball is falling towards the cricket ball.  "Up" is when the ball moves to the left away from the cricket ball and "down" is when the ball moves to the right towards the cricket ball.  Hence, the ball is falling towards the cricket ball, and falling means you are going down in energy.

So there are two energy effects taking place at the same time.  The effect from the cricket ball is much greater than the effect from the Earth because it is much closer.

So can you picture that?  When the ball rolls up the ramp it is also falling towards the cricket ball and going down in energy.

When you go back to the actual setup with the magnets, the exact same thing is happening.  When the ball rolls up the ramp it is actually doing down in energy because the mass of magnets at the end of the ramp acts like the cricket ball.

So again, when you watch the balls roll up the ramp, they are "still rolling downhill."  The "hill" in this case has two components, the slanted track, and the invisible magnetic hill that you can't see but you know it's there.  The ramp is a hill that is going up, but the invisible magnetic hill that you can't see is going down, and it's steeper than the physical hill of the ramp.

So, when you see the balls rolling up the ramp, in terms of energy, it's like they are rolling downhill.   <<< And that's why the balls can actually roll up the ramp.  Balls can only roll "downhill" so they must be rolling "downhill" in real life also.  >>>

This is only a little bit abstract, just remember the energy for a rolling ball in this situation is always some combination of (gravitational + kinetic + magnetic).  You can't see the magnetic fields but you can feel them.  When the ball rolls towards the end of the track in your mind you actually know that it's "rolling downhill" even though your eyes see it rolling up a physical hill.

This is an important concept that sets up the explanation for why the thing will never work.  So if you get this concept the final step is easy.

MileHigh

[tinman]

Tinman:

Good that you understood my example.

So let's look at what happens when the ball rolls up the ramp because it's attracted to the cricket ball.  Relative to the Earth it gets raised up and increases in energy from the added height.  But what about the case for the cricket ball?  The cricket ball is like a small planet.  In this case the ball moving up the ramp is getting closer to the cricket ball.  So that means that the ball is falling towards the cricket ball.  "Up" is when the ball moves to the left away from the cricket ball and "down" is when the ball moves to the right towards the cricket ball.  Hence, the ball is falling towards the cricket ball, and falling means you are going down in energy.

So there are two energy effects taking place at the same time.  The effect from the cricket ball is much greater than the effect from the Earth because it is much closer.

So can you picture that?  When the ball rolls up the ramp it is also falling towards the cricket ball and going down in energy.

When you go back to the actual setup with the magnets, the exact same thing is happening.  When the ball rolls up the ramp it is actually doing down in energy because the mass of magnets at the end of the ramp acts like the cricket ball.

So again, when you watch the balls roll up the ramp, they are "still rolling downhill."  The "hill" in this case has two components, the slanted track, and the invisible magnetic hill that you can't see but you know it's there.  The ramp is a hill that is going up, but the invisible magnetic hill that you can't see is going down, and it's steeper than the physical hill of the ramp.

So, when you see the balls rolling up the ramp, in terms of energy, it's like they are rolling downhill.   <<< And that's why the balls can actually roll up the ramp.  Balls can only roll "downhill" so they must be rolling "downhill" in real life also.  >>>

This is only a little bit abstract, just remember the energy for a rolling ball in this situation is always some combination of (gravitational + kinetic + magnetic).  You can't see the magnetic fields but you can feel them.  When the ball rolls towards the end of the track in your mind you actually know that it's "rolling downhill" even though your eyes see it rolling up a physical hill.

This is an important concept that sets up the explanation for why the thing will never work.  So if you get this concept the final step is easy.

MileHigh

MH
I believe there is a flaw in the way you are trying to describe what is happening.The flaw is the relationship between a gravitational force and a magnetic field. Gravity acts apon all mass,where as a magnetic field dose not.
If we use you theory useing a mass and gravity,then a ball made of anything will roll up the ramp. But with magnetic fields,only balls made from magneticly active materials,weather they be Diamagnetic, Paramagnetic, or Ferromagnetic,would roll up the hill-depending on magnet orientation.
We cant compair apples to oranges here.
Looking at the picture below,we can run through what happens.The ball starts a point A,and rolls up hill to point B.While doing this,the force being applied to the ball by the magnets ,is strone enough to overcome the force being applied to the ball by gravity-taking into account the incline angle of the ramp.But once the ball gets to point B,the force of gravity is then strong enough to pull the ball away from the magnetic force being applied to it.
Even if the ball ended up at the same hight at the end,we still overcome frictional and air resistance-work being done.

[gyulasun]

Folks,   

Naudin did some tests on SMOTs in 1997 or so, here are his results, unfortunately the old videos are not available from his site:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotidx.htm 

He used a double sided magnet wall and at top of the exit point the ball dropped into a inclined pipe which is curved at its input to receive the falling ball to utilize some of the energy from the falling.  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotnrgt.htm

Gyula

[Newton II]

I am getting a crazy idea after reading all the discussions and seeing videos:

Why we cannot use a sponge track?   If you keep a heavy iron ball say a shot put ball on a sponge track,  due to its heavy weight it compresses the sponge below its contact surface creating a gradient for itself to move forward.  Once the ball moves forward the sponge behind it gets deformed due to release of weight.  So  the gradient also moves with the ball making the ball's journey perpetual.

This is same as tying a bunch of grass to the neck of a donkey few inches away from its mouth.   Donkey moves forward to catch the grass through  its mouth.  But grass also moves since it is tied to its neck.  So the donkey executes perpetual motion to catch the grass in vain.

Funny or interesting?